Liverpool Banter Archive September 10 2017

10 Sep 2017 23:40:25
There's only one post I've seen since yesterday that comes close to accurately explaining what went wrong yesterday (take a bow Ron) ; Klopp got his approach to the game all wrong.

Any post that criticizes Klopp has to have a caveat, mine is that I love Klopp, when he gets it righthis teams are spectacular. The problem is he's an arrogant son of a b*tch and yesterday his arrogance got the better of him. He believed his own hype, that he was unbeatable against another top six side. His set up took absolutely no consideration into how to stop city playing.

Klopp thought he could show up and Mane and Salah would win it for him. He thought TAA, Matip, Klavan and Moreno were good enough to hold Aguero et al at bay without midfield cover. Guardiola is no mug and has the best squad in the league. They went toe to toe with us, whethered a few half chances and then tore us apart. It was embarrassing how easy it was for them.

The one positive that can come from this is that it might make Klopp realise that he can't always have it his own way, that sometimes he had to figure out how to ensure the other team scores less rather than Liverpool score more. If he doesn't learn this lesson then there'll be plenty of incredible matches where we eviscerate the opposition but there'll be no titles, he'll mess up too often.

11 Sep 2017 00:11:34
Good post Putney but klopp has won titles in a tough league with perhaps a lesser squad than some. The tactics might have got us something from the game. I doubt anyone even considered we would play most of the match with ten men as we are not really a physical side. At least the red card was because of a desire to win rather than out of thuggish violence.

I don't think there is much to learn that we didn't already know. The defence ain't all that and apply constant pressure and they collapse. It highlights what having a man sent off does to an attacking team. We haven't lost the league yet and I think Burnley are in line for a hammering. Seville will be difficult but they won't like coming to anfield on a Wednesday night.

11 Sep 2017 01:24:25
The team was doing great, away fom home against one of the potential champions until the red card;
The contest was over when Mane was shown a red card.

It was a bad injury but not a sending off,
There was just as bad a challenge today in Swansea v Newcastle and that got a yellow card shown.

IT WAS exactly the same challenge
bit it just hit a different part of the body.

A yellow would have been fine in both cases,

11 Sep 2017 01:53:29
Superred, there were clear lessons from this game; playing recklessly is not a reliable way to win games. That we have to compensate for our personnel problems not ignore them. That we'll concede if we let top class players get behind our midfield. If we don't learn anything from this were doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again.

11 Sep 2017 02:13:51
The tactics were fine before we lost Mane. We were a goal down but with equal chances at both ends. If they had lost Silva to a red card, chances are we would have exploited the space and treated them like Arsenal.

11 Sep 2017 02:14:14
Likewise love the guy and Klopps done wonders for the side but he made a few errors for me too.

1) agree he should have been more defensive away from home vs City in his selections in defense
2) I would have gone for the experience of Gomez over TAA, Lovren over Klavan and Robertson at LB. how we thought that back 4 would survive vs City is beyond me, we were clearly hoping to blow them away upfront
3) Klavan to me looks fine against sides with big forwards and no pace. he's brave and attacks the ball in the air. but as soon as it's played on the ground and he's having to mark quick runners he's exposed
4) still not sure about Migs either. not his shot stopping skills but organizationally we still look all over the place with him between the sticks

After the sending off though we still tried to defend in a press and got killed. impossible task and Klopp should have set up with two banks of four but instead we still had gaps all over midfield as people pushed to press high.

Overall a terrible day at the office and hopefully we learn to be a bit more balanced and pragmatic at times to prevent our defense being exposed too often (we seemed to be learning end of last season) . Still think it's early days and we have a great squad bar a couple of obvious weaknesses. just need to get the setup right.

11 Sep 2017 02:41:52
The only way we can go toe to toe with citeh is like chelsea did, with some cunning gamesmanship, but alas our players are just too goody 2 shoes. Look at Chelsea team they have Luiz, Fabragas, Costa, Alonso etc it was Fabregas who got Fernandinho sent off last time. We need bit of cultish attitude.

11 Sep 2017 03:54:12
i agree with everything in your post except the emphasism on Kloop winning the title in germany. yes he did win BM. but LFC is a different there is a lot PR pressure here, he has the last say here where as in BM he had DOF you did the transfers for him and in this way DOF always had a bigger picture in his mind. i feel Kloop is like a kid in a candy shop who wants to buy only attacking players, no real desire on the defence. i might be wrong but most of the managers who won the prem were defensive managers and all of them sorted thier defence first ( even wenger with his invincibles had a great defensive set up) . i do like kloop but i doubt that he is the man to win us the prem or CL. but i do hope we win the league cup or FA cup this year.

{Ed001's Note - Klopp is trying to buy defenders, so your post is just nonsense.}

11 Sep 2017 06:47:42
Supered

A lesser squad? Like who? Lewandowski, Reus, Gotze, Hummels, Gundagaon. Sahin, Bender, All those would walk into our team right now!

11 Sep 2017 07:41:13
Sahin couldn't walk into a weaker squad a couple of years back, what makes you think he can walking into this squad? Klopp had an oppotunity to buy Gotze and he did not, so what makes you think he can walk in now?

11 Sep 2017 08:09:39
Sahin was being misused by Rodgers who thought he was a number ten. Unfair analogy.

11 Sep 2017 08:18:47
That was not the point icon

Klopp had one of the best team in Europe when he won the titles at BVB. The moment he sold Gotze and less they went to relegation mode! It was not like he took a Burneletband won the league over ther.

And regarding Sahin, He is a proper DLP who was played as a CAM by Brendan!

11 Sep 2017 08:36:18
No, they would not Harry and stop this nonsense about other players being better than ours just cos they don't play for us. The players you mentioned were created by who? That would be Klopp and he to some extent is doing the exact same thing here so no one knows if they would walk into this team as the PL is different.

Now to the Putney post. You call Klopp arrogant SOB. And what manager is not and arrogant SOB? His opposite no. does not even believe in his defenders making tackles or getting stuck in and Wenger does not even care about the opposition team's tactics but these guys are not arrogant but Klopp is, right?

Klopp believed in the team he put out there and before the red card, we were well in the game and should have been one up before their goal and tied before the red card had Salah taken his chances and had Fernandinho not fouled Mane from behind as he was ripping their defence to pieces. He was not arrogant during this period BUT he would later be arrogant after the red card, right? Pathetic reasoning, really.

The pathetic recriminations need to stop, ASAP. I know the red card ruined the game BUT there were other things that could still have been done better that the red card should not cover up. Defensively on the first 3 goals, we were dire and that should be fixed. We have issues with starting fast at early day kickoffs and that has been a concern for a while now. As for the selection, Klopp did what he thought was right with the fitness info at his disposal. We do not have this info to fall back on so saying this or that player should have played or not, is pointless supposition.

11 Sep 2017 09:28:32
I think it's a fine line and had Mane not been sent off, had we taken one of our early chances it might have been the reverse score line.
I'm not going to criticise only Klopp. What about this guy "the brain"? Has he not figured it out yet? Can he not see that we often commit too many players forward or that Klavan is too slow to play in a high line?

11 Sep 2017 11:06:15
Ron.
They know exactly what is happening on the pitch as the players are performing to what they are told to do! We commit too many forward coz he wants us to attack in numbers. We don't have a proper holding midfielder who sit infront of the defense and protect the CB's.

11 Sep 2017 11:18:01
Ron, you are not totally wrong. I don't know that if Mane had been on the pitch for 90 mins, we would have won as no one knows that and City is more than capable of scoring 5 vs any team's first 11 as they are that good. We have issues in this team that came to the fore again, red card or not and that is where the debate should begin. Klopp even said that the first goal should have been avoided by the defensive line simply taking too steps forward and then both Aguero and Gab Jesus would have been offside and no goal happens. Tiny details like that, make a difference.

11 Sep 2017 12:02:46
are liverpool fans the only fans in the world that act like losing a football game is tantamount to reason? like it's the biggest anomaly in sport or something?

11 Sep 2017 13:09:45
Faith, it is because many of our fans use a bad result to either gloat in a bid to say "see, I was right" or to say "FSG out" (as if FSG is the reason Mane got a red card) or to do recriminations against a certain player (s) or the manager that they want to really criticize but can't as we were undefeated in all comps. b4 the City game. Everyone has his/ her reasons why they go into meltdown mode after a bad result BUT it is part of the game. I just hope there are more realistic and rational supporters than this lot.

11 Sep 2017 13:51:43
Putney you say that we keep making the same mistakes over and over but actually that is our only defeat for a long time. It is also the only drumming I can actually remember? My cigarettes smell funny though and my memory is shot!

When we win (which we usually do) we call klopp a genius, we could have completely consolidated but 1 0 is the same as 5 0 in points and the one positive I took from Saturday (it was hard to find a positive) is that we still tried to play and that was brave (perhaps daft) but brave.

11 Sep 2017 16:34:46
I'm sure dortmund weren't favourites when they first won the German league. You can list some class players yes but list some of Munich for balance.

11 Sep 2017 16:49:53
We went toe to toe with city last season and won one drew one didn't we? And beat em in a cup I think? The red card cost us. I think we would've got something from the game with eleven men. Let's not give up hope yet. Last week everyone was saying we are going to win the league and one defeat later the season is over already! I still think we can win it. I honestly believe we can.

10 Sep 2017 21:11:24
Luis Alberto started and scored tonight for Lazio against AC Milan. We definitely missed a trick with him. It was great to see 4 ex-Liverpool players in action in Serie A though. Lucas, Alberto, Suso and Borini. Borini's place must be in danger though. He wasn't great.

10 Sep 2017 21:57:23
Epic, missed a trick with who? Alberto? A guy who was clearly not good enough for even the reserves?

10 Sep 2017 22:02:54
Off-field issues iirc.

11 Sep 2017 05:10:10
It's took 3 years for him to do something of note and suddenly were missing out? Have you seen our squad at the minute?

11 Sep 2017 11:38:00
He was good enough for our reserves.

10 Sep 2017 20:43:22
How many transfer Windows has Klopp had yet we have the same problems we had under Rodgers, this season has to be the season that Klopp produces results or else we must cut our losses. There has to be an end to accepting mediocrity.

I like how some fans say let's just write that game off. If we are so accepting of not just a loss but a hiding then we will end up delusional. The problems are clear in our team yet Klopp is oblivious to it. How is that possible? The fans see it, the commentators see it, opposition managers see it, even the ball boys see it yet Klopp can't.

That's just ignorance and stupidity. The players should refund all those fans that travelled for the game against City. That type of loss will not be the last for us this season.

10 Sep 2017 21:53:21
Slightly over the top there pal. Either you're joking with 90% of what you just said or you're after killing copious amounts of brain cells last night in your local boozer. One loss at the potential champions' stadium while playing for nearly two thirds of the game a man down. Panic stations now is it?! Ridiculous post.

10 Sep 2017 22:03:48
Cola, if you want Klopp out then I suggest you make an offer that FSG can't refuse and then sack him yourself. Chill out man cos it sounds like you are having a panic attack. We only lost 3 points vs City in the main so no need to just throw the baby out with the bath water. We need not just write the game off as there were some things that went wrong in that game red card or not and need to be assessed, Just calm down and look forward to the next game in the CL, you know that thing that Klopp got us into against all odds?

10 Sep 2017 22:04:13
And if it's something that carries on then I'm sure Klopp's job will be on the line and so it should be. For the moment though we are a much better side now than when he took over so let's give him the benefit of the doubt for that one game where circumstances went against us and just move on.

10 Sep 2017 22:27:12
All manager's have suffered heavy defeats in their time, Guardiola 4-0 to Everton, Wenger 10-2 on aggregate to Bayern, Mourinho 5-0 to Barcelona, Pochettino 5-1 to Newcastle even Ferguson was on the end of a 6-1 hammering by city. So their is no need to hit the panic button yet but things will have to start improving sooner rather than later.

11 Sep 2017 01:33:40
Your right,
Fergie said after the beating,
Its done, Its over, move on, to me it never happened,

11 Sep 2017 02:15:05
Yeah but none of these teams lose badly in their title winning season. Thry lose it en route to building a winning team. And this is suppose to be our title winning season and we got thrash. Looks like we have reach the ceiling with Klopp.

{Ed001's Note - but we clearly haven't as he wants to improve the defence by bringing in better defenders, which is what we need.}

11 Sep 2017 08:44:47
Again Relaxla, if you think we have reached a ceiling with Klopp and want him gone, make an offer FSG can't refuse, buy the club and sack him yourself. All managers get a hammering and that is normal. The only hammering I will never accept was the one BR stood idly by and let happen at Stoke. After the game, he said, "I did not see anything that I did not expect". On those comments alone, he deserved the sack. I'd take Fergie's comments after being whitewashed 6-1 by Cuty over that tripe from BR any day.

11 Sep 2017 11:39:15
Champions league. Smashes arsenal last week. Signing 60 million pound players. Got one of the best front 3s in the league. Got coutinho to come back after keeping him, Rodgers sold sterling and Suarez. Not klopp with coutinho!

10 Sep 2017 19:19:56
I've waited 24 hours so i am calmer than i was yesterday with alcohol in my system. I have to say though, that I'm still seething even sober. Not at the red, but at the lack of fight from a few players and surprisingly from Klopp. Thank god for being in the Champions league because if i had to wait a week for us to make amends for that I'd struggle.

My calm-ish take on the game?

Mignolet was atrocious but for a few saves he should be making and one good save from Aguero at the back post. He came flying off his line to make Aguero's goal easy, he came flying off his line to gift Jesus a header which was fortunately offside, he came flying out to make Jesus second goal easy, got beaten at his near post for Sane's first and got nowhere near the 2nd or 5th although they were good goals. Worst performance from a keeper in a red shirt in my lifetime. Defence didn't help him but nor did he help them!

Arnold got turned inside out but he was badly let down by his team mates when they started doubling up on him. Learning curve hopefully.

Matip was absolutely awful and looked disinterested. Laziest player on the pitch.

Klavan just kept taking too long on the ball. Why did he start?

Moreno actually played okay but they rarely attacked his flank.

Can had his worst game in over a year in midfield. He was weak on the ball, his passing was poor and he looked disinterested. Then he went into centre back and was our best defender. He made some very good recoveries.

Gini should've played. Wait? He did? Oh.

Henderson won possession back a lot for us, but kept giving it straight back after the red card. Didn't help with us being down a man but he should've calmed everyone down, rather than join in with the panic.

Mane looked on for at least a couple of goals. Otamendi should've been sent walking for a very late two footed challenge into his guts after Fernandinho had tripped Mane up for a booking. Apparently late tackles are only worth booking people if the victim pretends to be in a coma though 🙄 in all seriousness, the red card was 50/ 50. I say it's not, some say it is. Rules aren't clear enough to give a definitive answer hence the split in opinion. Mane went for the ball though, and was just a touch too late. Ritchie got a yellow today for a similar thing. Swings and roundabouts.

Firmino barely touched the ball and should've come off at half time. Why play a false 9 as a target man?

Salah was our best player and was guaranteed to get at least one of them sent off and maybe bag a goal or two before the red. They couldn't cope with him at all but after the red he was stupidly dropped deeper and then subbed. We'd have been better off leaving Salah on their last man instead of Firmino.

Milner, Chamberlain and Solanke were all given the near impossible task of trying to change that game after Klopp had already decided he didn't care about winning. Klopp got his reaction to the red card all wrong though. We should've gone harder for the win but attempts at damage limitation made it more embarrassing.

I guess we move on now. I don't think there is anything new to take from this. Mignolet and Matip are still not good enough to be first team players, and Klopp is terrible at making the right substitutions! Shock horror 😂 in terms of the result, pointless judging the team or our season on it. The ref ruined the game in my opinion. I'm glad Ederson is okay, but if he'd been a man and stood up to show he was grazed and not unconscious, i think the ref may have made a different decision. Contact sports invariably result in collisions and if you take the phrase "endangering" too literally, you could literally send off anybody for any tackle that gets the man. I've seen ankles broken and skulls cracked for seemingly innocuous challenges. The resulting injury should not be taken into consideration. The intent and the brutality should. The debate will rage on though! I am not going to call the ref names (not now I'm sober) though, because as i said earlier, it is a 50/ 50 decision on a 50/ 50 tackle. G. Neville and Carragher disagreed and you would be surprised at which one of them was on Mane's side, put it that way!

Sevilla now and let's hope we beat them 6-0!

{Ed025's Note - good summary MK but im afraid it was not 50/50 mate..100/0..

10 Sep 2017 19:36:03
I thought you changed your username Adam 😎😎. Everything happened. Man sent off, lost, we did not score.

10 Sep 2017 19:42:06
MK, you make some very good points. Saying Klopp does not care about winning is a low blow and you should be ashamed, MK. If that was the case, how did we win the most points from losing positions last season, then? We were always going to lose that game, genkius and it was a case of not if but by how many. He made a decision based on the scenario of the game. He chose to just pack it in and try to limit the damage. Had he gone for for it and got spanked 8-0, you would be on here saying that he should have just limited the damage, right? Everyone is a genius after the fact so pls, enough with that stuff.

Also pls, enough with the debate over the red card. It is not Ederson's job to be a man about a damn thing. Mane put his foot up onto a head-high ball. Gk comes out, heads the ball away and catches a face full of studs. There is no way on earth that a scenario like that will go unpunished by a straight red. No Way! If Mane had used his head instead of his foot, I guarantee you that he does not get sent off regardless of the outcome. That is simply a given. On to Sevilla and hopefully, we can right the ship.

10 Sep 2017 20:05:37
Ed25 is correct 50% of the people saw it as a 100% redcard.

10 Sep 2017 20:12:41
I agree with much of your points MK (aside from the sending off as I'm also a referee) . I cannot understand why Klopp bought Robertson, cannot see why he can't see the obvious that Gomez and Robertson are our best full backs. We cannot play the midfield 3 together for all the reasons you highlighted and we need a genuine no 9 starting the game. If AOC is so good in Klopp eyes why did he not go straight in? Why have we not replaced our goalkeepers with a quality no1?
I have no idea what Klopp is trying to do, is it to win every game 5-4 coz he has no clue how to to play any other way.
Honeymoon period is over, he's had more transfer windows than Mourinho so time to deliver.

10 Sep 2017 20:30:27
Sonofklopp, genuine question here, if mane makes exactly the same action but it doesn't result in a collision is it still a red for being dangerous? You don't have to run someone over to be knicked for drink driving, the action regardless of the consequences is your done. I'm not saying it was t a red btw, just wondering if it's the action in its self or because there was a collision. Cheers.

10 Sep 2017 21:06:26
Actually Bingo i said to my father in law at half time "i would rather lose 4-1 trying to win than shut up shop and keep it at 2-0". As it happened, Klopp tried to shut it down and it backfired. It was a decision which severely lacked ambition. Chelsea down to 10 men fought back against Burnley on the opening day and nearly got a draw. It made the score line respectable though and gave the fans something to cheer.

Klopp bottled it. Took off a forward to switch to 5-3-1 and just play hoof ball to a 5ft10 attacking midfielder/ false 9. He was already planning his Sevilla line up before their 3rd goal even hit the net. That was the only thing anybody should be ashamed about.

On the red card, if it was as stone wall as you are making out people like Guardiola, Clattenburg, G. Neville etc wouldn't be saying it was harsh/ wrong. It is one of them decisions where people will see it differently. I can accept that, so why can't you?

10 Sep 2017 20:59:14
Hi Lfc H2, of course endangering an opponents safety is purely subjective, like many decisions in football however in this case I agree with what's been said on other pages of the site in that the same challenge was made by a Newcastle player today and he got away with it as a yellow card, it appears because he did not make contact. I believe Mike Jones got this terribly wrong today and has increased the pressure on his colleagues as a result.
The pace and reckless nature of both challenges endangers the safety of an opponent, as you rightly alluded to you are sent off for violent conduct whether you actually strike an opponent or miss and serious foul play is exactly the same. If you attempt a violent Kung-fu kick at an opponent but miss by 2 yards you should still be sent off. I suspect John Moss will be supported and Mike Jones made an example of by the PGMO because such inconsistency needs to be kept to a minimum, so soon after he should have been prepared and brave enough to issue a red card.

{Ed025's Note - very good post that SOK and i totally agree mate..

10 Sep 2017 21:16:22
Agree MK placing the UCL ahead of the EPL is not acceptable and Klopp clearly wrote the game off at 2-0. Given City were so vulnerable themselves he let everyone down by planning for Wednesday and giving up with 45 mins to go, what must the players think if he makes decisions like that? Klopp is not going to get away with being funny in interviews and jumping up and down in the technical area if the team he sends out continues to underperform in that manner. He better buck up, he's not the Messiah he's very naughty boy 😈.

10 Sep 2017 21:22:41
Cheers SoK.

10 Sep 2017 21:32:00
Cheers Bluenose Ed025 mate, as a ref I have to be honest even though I do go ballistic when glaring errors go against my team, I actually thought the worst performance of the weekend was Neil Swarbrick Stoke v Utd as he let so many yellow card challenges go with just a verbal warning. There are too many top flight officials running up and down but not making decisions in my opinion.
Mike Dean and Michael Oliver are the best around as they can't be influenced and never bottle a decision, they simply give what they see and also admit to their mistakes.
The FA and PGMO are now hell bent on producing robots with no personality (in the name of aiming for consistency) and it's sad to witness. Many games at the lower levels are improved for the players and spectators by referees showing personality and humour.
Fitter referees for the professional game, absolutely agree, the game is so quick now, but please allow them to act like human beings who can also smile and enjoy their game too. Too much money and pressure in the game is killing the fun for players, managers, officials alike, Sadly.

{Ed025's Note - absolutely mate..

10 Sep 2017 21:48:47
Welcome Lfc H2, I think going on about referees decisions deflects too much from the gaping holes Klopp has failed to address, goalkeeper, centre backs, striker. His reluctance to play Gomez right back and Robertson left back for a run of games is also baffling to me.
He has improved central midfield but not until '18/ '19 season, playing 3 similar players in the centre of midfield is an error in my opinion. I'd rather we played 3 centre backs, 2 holding centre mids, wing backs and 3 forwards with free roles to be honest. I kept thinking yesterday Salah is wasting the opportunities after skinning Otamendi so why not switch him and Mane for 10 minutes, Klopp seems totally inflexible whereas Conte adapted and won the bloody title by stumbling on a solution.
Drives me mad these managers get well paid and over complicate the game thinking they are innovating, utter crap. I called Rodgers "The Emperors New Clothes" don't know how that translates in German but I for one am concerned by our managers lack of flexibility and bonkers substitutions. If he was English there'd be a lot more desent about the lack of improvement by now.

10 Sep 2017 22:25:51
MK, if you are using the opinions of Neville, Clattenburg and the rest to support your point then sorry, you have NO point at all. I would prefer to debate you based on the opinion that YOU have rather than someone else's. Also, you nor I don't get to tell Klopp what he should or should not prioritize. He has to do what is best for his team at that time and that is what he did. I may or may not agree with it BUT I understand it. Why? Cos I have played and watched the game long enough to unlike you, not think like a fan. I try to think like a manager who has a lot more on his plate that you or I.

He made a decision to limit the damage and that is that. Going for it with the types of mistakes we were making at the back would have been more than suicidal so be happy it was only 5. Had we done what you propose, it would have been worse cos if they could find gaps with us trying to defend as poorly as we did on the first 3 goals, they would have found tonnes more gaps whenever we attacked and hitting us on the break and at that point, it would have been in the double digits. But of course, that'a not your problem now, is it? Again, think like a manager and you will understand a lot more than you do thinking like a supporter.

11 Sep 2017 06:48:27
Bingo you're just acting like a know it all because you think you've played football at a decent level. Teams have come from behind with 10 men in the past and will do so again. Klopp bottled it. OPINION.

11 Sep 2017 08:56:40
I am not a know it all. I take things based on context and circumstances that happen in the moment cos in football and sports, that is how it is mostly done esp. right after a game like that. Saying teams have come from behind to win with 10 men is nothing but a false equivalence as we do not know the context of those games, the attacking ability of the other team, and what players in what positions where sent off as that, dictates what tactical changes you make going forward.

Again, I'm not a know-it-all. I just try to delve deeper into things as you and I know that context matters. If you think Klopp bottled it cos we did not go for it more then you are free to have that opinion. We saw Utd go for it more when they lost a man vs City and got hammered 6-1 and it could have been in the double digits for them as well. That is fact and that fact is what I base my opinion on cos things are not always cut and dry. Nice debate, tho.

11 Sep 2017 11:37:06
Sono, Klopp made the selection decisions based on the fitness info he had on the players. Moreno was at Melwood all week unlike Robbo who was away with Scotland so Moreno starts as he is fresher. Lovren played two games with Croatia within 48 hrs so again, Klavan playing makes sense. Gomez is a good defender BUT is not a RB. He is a CB and is only playing there so he can get back to full fitness after a long injury layoff.

You also say that we needed to play w/ a real no. 9. What has Firmino done to displace him from being the starter? Where you this anxious for a true no. 9 when he was leading the line very well for us vs Watford, Hoffenheim and Arsenal, scoring and assisting. Now suddenly cos we lost a game, he is now crap?

Honeymoon period? What honeymoon period for Klopp has ended? You mean the period where we fought tooth and nail to get to the CL, beating Arsenal and Utd (who had to give it up getting there via the league and make it via EL) to make it into the top 4? Come on, man. Your knee jerk reactions is pretty lame. We lost a game and there is a lot to learn from it as regardless of the red card, there were things there that still needed improvement.

Whatever Klopp did or did not do, it's all hindsight and everyone seems to be a genius after all the facts have been known. I don't deal in that nonsense as it adds nothing useful to the debate. We learn and move on, end of. On to Seville in the CL now, you know that thing that Klopp got us into against all odds?

12 Sep 2017 07:50:49
Sorry he learns nothing, same mistakes over and over. You will recall we scrapped into the 4th place after betting City on NYE to look like title favourites.
He did not address our weaknesses or strengthen up front in terms of finishing, Sturridge is the only natural finisher in the squad.
Not knee jerk by the way as I predicted last January that we would fall away in the league and get knocked out of the cups.
Klopp has done no better than Rodgers but everyone is creaming over him because he's a fashionable foreign manager. Well I judge managers on signings, results and tactics not hype.
Yet again this is season when we should challenge for the title as, despite all the money spent, City are clueless at the back, Arsenal in disarray, Man Utd the usual Mourinho grind results out with boring football, Spurs Wembley factor and Chelsea with off the field distractions and no replacement for Matic.
I don't care what level of football you've played Bingo, some of the greatest players make shocking managers, I've been watching for 45 years and study the game religiously, we need someone who can clinically bury the chances, a goalkeeper and centre back. Until that is addressed and Keita comes in also we will be a 4th-8th placed side, simply not good enough. 4th for me is nothing to be singing and dancing about, the only thing is should do is attract better quality players.
Come back to me after our next two league games and let me know all about these lessons Klopp will have learnt from the 5-0 defeat at the weekend.

12 Sep 2017 07:54:22
PS Firminio is a number 10 and I would start him in the side actually. For number 9 read Fowler, Owen, Torres, Suarez, Rush, Keegan, Hunt i. e. A goal scorer.

10 Sep 2017 18:47:58
Saturday as gone now time to look forward to Sevilla at home on Wednesday, we go again.

10 Sep 2017 17:30:36
Now this is just my opinion, yes our defending is bad but i think the main problem is the lack of leadership not just at the back but all over the park, Henderson is our captain i've watched every game this season i can only recall him barking at people once but its not all his fault Can barks a bit at players too, but yesterday leadership at the back simply was not there not from the ceneterbacks or our captain what what made it clear was when Can moved in to the central position of the back three peronslly he should have went right side and Matip centrally but it was him who was trying to organise them not either of the other two experienced pros and in my opinion that's wrong. We need leaders someone to give someone a bollocking on the pitch and even before their 1st goal yesterday some poeple where nervous looking holding onto the ball too long and needed a gee up they never got. Peole say we should have VVD but after the balls up of that we should have went for Bonnucci arguably if not the best one of the best defenders in the world got 2 maybe 3 seasons left and went for 35million i would have offered him £200k a week just for his experience and leadership alone i would have moved mountains i know he said he did not want to leave Italy but you got try and test the resolve with big offers if you want to succeed.

10 Sep 2017 18:06:06
Bouncci was all over the place today against Lazio. Chielleni is the real deal who wouldn't move out from Juventus. Every player should be a leader on the pitch. You have to be a self motivator and motivate others. Most of the players are from 3 to 4 years at the club.

10 Sep 2017 18:07:46
There's this strange idea that leadership means shouting at people, if you're shouting at people then somethings already gone wrong so you've already failed. The defence doesn't need someone pointing out what they're doing wrong, it needs someone telling them what they should be doing before the mistake happens. We don't have a defender who wants to take charge, that's our problem.

10 Sep 2017 18:44:20
Spot on, Putney. Your post is the one that has described best our leadership issues infesting our defence.

10 Sep 2017 17:14:30
Ed01

I have to agree with you on the Mane red even if it wasn't intentional. however having just seen Ritchie for Newcastle against Swansea a few moments ago he jumps head height to nudge the ball on with his foot and studs showing and tge defender luckily didn't get caught as full on so managed to stay on his feet and you see ritchie mouth I didn't see him and gets a yellow for it!

There has to be some consistency with the refereeing in this country which just aggregates me!

Have you seen the incident and what are your thoughts on the refereeing in the Prem?

{Ed001's Note - we were literally discussing that on our editor's widget then. We all feel Ritchie should have got a red and refereeing inconsistencies are a major problem. There was one in the earlier game as well, McArthur went flying in with his boot head high to try and get on the end of a ball, right by two defenders. That one never even got given as a foul.}

10 Sep 2017 17:38:07
Ed, Mane's challenge was a red, no question. I think the main reason it is a red is that Ederson got to the ball first and got a face full of studs. There is no way on earth where this scenario will not get a red card. Now, I have not seen the incidents you have mentioned above with Jonpow so I cannot comment. The lesson here is that in that situation, you don't raise your leg that high a for a head-level ball like that as that in itself is dangerous play. If he goes with his head, regardless of the outcome, Mane is not getting sent off and that should be the issue closed, IMO.

{Ed001's Note - that is the thing mate, all 3 incidents were needless. The ball is at head height, it does not take a genius to realise you go with your head.}

10 Sep 2017 17:58:04
Thanks Ed01! Yeah just seen that other incident and cannot believe nothing was given.

I was lower end amature football player in the Liverpool county com league and if a ball is head height you go for it with your head! Don't see why players try to use their feet at that height.

10 Sep 2017 18:16:23
I think the emphasis is on the player's judgement. Mane tried something (to get the ball ahead of the keeper) but got it all wrong and got the keeper in the face. To me he got a red because his poor judgement endangered another player.

If the player judges it right and safely wins the ball then that should be encouraged but the lesson should be only go for it if it's safe to do so.

10 Sep 2017 18:39:08
My god if you think any of those are red cards you need to watch a different sport. Tiddlywinks or something maybe? This is a mans game and men get hurt playing it. I've had so many broken bones playing football it's unreal but you accept it. If Mane's is a red then you can chalk off Can's overhead kick from last season along with Rooney's and Andy Carrols because by kicking the ball from that height is endangering the opposition so they should all have been sent off. We have to be very careful here because without contact the sport will be boring and that's the way we are going. I'm sick of the holyer than thou brigade copy and pasting exerts from the rule book as 'proof' he should've been sent off. If that's the case then every time someone raises a boot above stomach height they have to go. It's the action of the player that warrants the card not the result of that action. Us that have played a lot of football know the cynical challenges that should be punished with red cards. I mean the over the top leg breakers or two footed lunges that can end a career. What happened yesterday was not that is was an accidental coming together but if we're now saying that's a red then let's be consistent but we'll end up with 8 a side.

{Ed002's Note - These sorts of posts are really embarrassing to read. It is all stemming from the standard Liverpool fan approach to blame someone else.}

10 Sep 2017 18:52:57
A bit like certain manager he's blamed everyone from the ballboy, to the ref, to the team doctor to the fans and the opposing manager! He must have Scouse ancestry. 😂.

10 Sep 2017 19:04:29
Again Mane could of seriously hurt Ederson. I don't think the problem is him getting a red, it's there doesn't seem to be consistency among refs.

Is raising your foot high when no one is around dangerous play? No. But then how close does someone need to be for it to be considered dangerous?

Should it be a yellow for accidental? How do you prove it's accidental, or intentional?

This is all part of the drama that makes football exciting.

Although yesterday's sending off ruined what was supposed to be the biggest game so far this season.

The refs are employed for their judgement, hopefully someone clarifys the rules, so all judgements are the consistent. However to do that, you need to take the human out of the decision making.

10 Sep 2017 19:12:40
That was an over the top jaw breaker. The keeper is lucky to have escaped serious injury.

I did not think it was red at the time, doesn't help that the commentary was saying it was bit a red, but watching it back now fair sending off.

The more worrying issue is that we can't defend. If Klopp had an ounce of understanding about defending he would have drilled them to defend with their lives and possibly nick a goal from a set piece.

10 Sep 2017 16:54:35
I have had a day to reflect on our defeat yesterday.

In hindsight I think we needed that result yesterday. Bear with me here. We have turned many a top team over showing pace, quality and a rear team performance both at home and away grounds. Yesterday we have had a dishing out of our own medicine. The result highlighted the inabilities of our transfer dealings not getting our defensive side sorted.

Personally I think we need to give Ward his chance now between the sticks. We need to either then decide to sell Migs or Karius. TAA needs to be given as much time at right back as possible. This the case for Gomez at centre back as these two players are young and can be the heart of our defence for years. We mucked both VVD and Southampton about and that deal could have been over the line at the beginning of the transfer window. Left back in Robertson seems a good deal and he will be good choice when fit.

Midfield. We need to give Can that contract and ensure he is given game time. Him Hendo and Keita could have a good partnership for a few years now. We have great back up with Gini as well as the Ox. We have a great forward line with Salah, Mane, firmino, lallana, Coutinho as well as the Ox double hatting.

Forwards, we have Sturridge who when fit is deadly. Solanke I think needs game time, if your good enough your old enough. Ings like Origi needs a loan to get fitness and games under his belt.

I hate to see other clubs around us that choose a transfer target and get the deal sorted. We low ball with prices and make us a laughing stock and clubs then won't deal with us. However we need to support the lads, yes horrible horrible result yesterday but we as fans have to accept the lows as well as the highs.

Just my opinion.

Baz.

10 Sep 2017 17:05:48
Baz I agree to a point but I don't think anyone in this window chose their target and just got the deal done. Utd missed out on Morata and Perisic, City Sanchez, Chelsea lost out on about 4 players I think. We didn't get VVD but we targeted Salah, Keita, Robertson and AOC and got the deals done. I don't think we had a particularly bad window to be honest.

10 Sep 2017 17:43:42
We didn't address the squads weakness in the window, we still have a poor defence and average goal keepers (give Ward a chance Klopp) Ultimately it was poor window.

10 Sep 2017 18:20:44
Ings

They all got their imprtant members in the window except us. We need a top class CB, infact 2.

10 Sep 2017 19:13:40
No they did not, Harry. Your idol Mou wanted Perisic all day long and did not get him. Conte has been chasing Bonucci for 2 seasons now and still did not get him. Pep wanted Sanchez all day long as well and is still mad he did not get him. I know you think other clubs and players are always better than ours and all you do is bash fawn over them as a blatant attempt to bash us, our players and our manager as Klopp can do nothing right in your eyes. Give it a rest, mate as the record is getting scratched. LFC will continue to be crap cos they did not do what you wanted. Got it. Can you now change the record, pls?

10 Sep 2017 19:35:03
Salah was not our first choice, Ings n things. Robertson underwhelmed most on here before he kicked a ball and I don't believe he'd be here either had we not royally pissed off Fulham. Keita isn't coming until next year and I'm not sure the Ox topped anyone's list of targets, especially at that price! Don't get me wrong, when they wear the red shirt I'm 100% behind them, but suggesting VVD was the only target we failed to land is a little off the mark mate.

10 Sep 2017 21:34:01
You're not wrong there, GMAC.

11 Sep 2017 11:35:32
Hot the nail on the head WCD.
We strengthened our strengths but did not address the weaknesses mate.

10 Sep 2017 15:22:13
Watching Lazio v a. c. Milan. Good to see ex Liverpool lads suso, borini, Luis Alberto and Lucas all playing. They all seem much more suited to serie A!

10 Sep 2017 16:52:36
Could've done with Lucas yesterday.

10 Sep 2017 13:47:04
Hi Ed01,

Given how critical were your thoughts on Skrtl, How do you rate Matip now?

We have gone backwards. and Klavan, Matip and Lovern are step down to Skrtl says a lot.

Lovern, being poor atleat wants to fight as a defender but gets 90% wrong but Matip and Klavan seem to be pussies.

Don't want to blame Klavan as he is slow and will not work in this system but Matip thinks he is a xavi and tries over ambituous pass that never succeeds and his defeneding is also very bad.


Would like to know Ed1 from LFC angle and a neutral prespective from Ed25/ Ed2.

Cheers.

{Ed001's Note - if you read through I have answered this question numerous times already mate. I have been saying for a while I am not convinced by Matip, but the more I watch him play the less I like what I see.}

10 Sep 2017 14:10:20
Fair mate.

somtimes we should be careful with what we wish for. Everyone here got pissed with Skrtl and were heaping praise on Matip and getting him on free, were so much of praise on Matip and Klopp.

He also bought Karius and he is making Mignolet look good.

Bought Klavan who is not suited to this system.

And he has bought Ox and god knows what he saw in him that will take us to next level.

Nothing against Klavan or Ox but when we buy should we be looking to improve on what we have and take to next level but they seem to be on par or lower than what we have.

Are the players bad or the fault is in the system? Going 1 man and trailing 2-0, still playing open hoping we outscore.

Is it that difficult to play closed game?

{Ed001's Note - in what way is Karius making Mignolet look good? He has done no such thing and every time he plays has made the team look a lot more confident defensively, unlike Migs. As for Skittles, he was over the hill anyway and had to be replaced, plus he was on big money and wanted more big money to stay. Klavan is just a back up, no idea why so many of you want to keep whining about his buy, you can't get Godin for a back up. You get what you can.}

10 Sep 2017 14:24:29
This argument is totally flawed because Skrtel is just not better than any of our current choices. We should have been penalised every defending corner when Skrtel was about.

10 Sep 2017 14:25:01
If Klopp thinks Sakho was a mere back up to Lovren who could be replaced by a slow moving Klavan, Then problem lies with Klopp. Klavan shoukd have never brought. And with Matip it's just like typical liverpool fans. Free signing means bargain lol!

10 Sep 2017 14:33:25
To improve the team you should always try and buy better than what you already have, then the player you have replaced becomes back up.

10 Sep 2017 14:47:42
I will still prefer skrtyl than Matip, Klavan and Lovern.

At least he is better at shirt pulling than others without doubt and is better overall in relation to what we have now.

Cheers.

10 Sep 2017 15:04:10
Our problem is not necessarily the personel.
Klopp has a system which leaves the defence wide open all the time. Ok our defenders are not great but they don't have much chance when there's a gaping hole in front of them for opponents to exploit. A lot of the time we are playing with the formation 2 defenders and 8 attackers.
Either Klopp tweaks his system or our defence will always look poor regardless of who's playing.

10 Sep 2017 15:21:40
Cbs should be scary. Ours aren't simply. Klavan has played well for liverpool but was well out of his depth yesterday. I cannot understand why we signed him. Liverpool won't win the league until we have some top top cbs. Mat hummers and vvd would be great. We need to offer some big money for some big cbs. It will pay dividends.

10 Sep 2017 15:34:47
Well said Ron. Let's not forget we were up against a very very good city side.

10 Sep 2017 16:46:10
Thing is ed, I get that Klavan is back up, but would you really play him in a game against City rather than Gomez or Lovren (given that both Lovren and Gomez were both on the bench)? You know he's liable to make at least one critical error which results in a goal every game. By picking him ahead of both of them says he's more than just back up.

{Ed001's Note - he was not picked ahead of both of them, it is rotation. Would I do so? No, but I do not have access to the data to know if Lovren was fit enough to start after the internationals.}

10 Sep 2017 17:49:36
I didn't think Maldini was scary but he's one of the best defenders I've ever seen.

10 Sep 2017 21:52:21
Skrtel was hapless and I'm glad he's no longer here. As for the poster who thinks Karius makes Migs lokk good, you need to stop using sun glasses to watch games. Karius is a better GK than Migs and that is clear. He is better with his feet (Arsenal game notwithstanding), more suited to play the high defensive line system due to his agility as a sweeper-keeper, more agile on his line and more authoritative with crosses unlike he was before.

Karius just needs to get a long run in the team for him to either show that or not. Migs has had his run and it has been hopeless, overall. Why we persist with him, is still beyond me. As for the selection, we don't have the fitness info that these coaches have so we have to trust their judgement instead of just mouthing off that "why did this or that player not play" w/ o knowing the in's and out's behind that decision.

11 Sep 2017 11:26:29
Our defence were shocking yesterday but we are not the only team that city are going to spank this season

OK, this is hard for me to say. city are bloody good aren't they!

If you talk to people inside the game most people will say lovren is our best defender. Perhaps they don't watch the boys week in week out as we do but I think that's the general concensus. Not one of the back five were any good yesterday. I was surprised to hear pundits on motd talking about how vvd and lovren would be great together. Matip looks good against lesser opposition because he can pick a pass and he looks composed. When the going gets tough it is lovren who is willing to fight. And let's not forget, lovren has to cover for moreno when he goes running.

Look, we were away, at the best side in the league (with world's best manager) we lost our best player and still tried to play football. The score line flatters city because I don't think they are that much better than us. Maybe better but not five goals better.

I think we've just been beaten by the best team in the league and one of top five teams in Europe.

Liverpool can build the best attacking team in the world but if we don't have a good enough base/ defence then it's pointless.

Despite what people say, I think klopp is a fantastic manager and a clever bloke. He will learn from this, I bet it doesn't happen again.

So much of this summers transfers are geared toward breaking the so called lesser teams down it looks like we forgot about playing the big teams. I still think liverpool could do with a true cf. We missed Adam lallana big time yesterday. We missed Clyne also, taa may end up a better player but Clyne has pl experience and for me is still the best RB at the club (except maybe Milner who I wish had started at RB yesterday) and of course we missed coutinio. In the big games ads and pipco really come to life.

Not the end of the world guys, I still believe our first eleven is as strong as anyone's when ALL players are fit. Our best players last year were pc ads and mane and we were without them all for most of the game.

Karius needs a decent run.

11 Sep 2017 11:28:32
Karius is so much better than mignolet. Even if it is just to settle the back four.

You do realise that when a defender has an option to make a pass back to the keeper and see flapper in the sticks they will hesistae and the rest of the tram will go into panic.

That's why players like has hesistae to make a simple pass back to the keeper. They have no confidence, not just in his passing ability but also wether they will be given it straight back in a more pressured position.

10 Sep 2017 12:30:52
Hope Carra on Sly monday night football shows Naismith ( ex everton) making his debut for Norwich versus Liverpool when he "DONE" Lucas in the first ten minutes ( Circa 7 min? ) and never even gave a yellow card, it was a miracle it wasnt a broken ankle try and guess who ref was?

Yes Jon Moss? not defending Mane at all but does Moss have an Agenda with Liverpool . Hope fellow reds remember incident and why did Bellerin not get a red card when salah took the ball of him to score the third goal against Arsenal? we have not had the rub of the green this season Watfords first and third goal were offside?

And finally Klopp has made " a rod for his own back " by not buying a decent Centre back in 4 transfer windows, what you sow you reap in football, its us spurs and arsenal for Fourth place this season, was this the reason Keita was bought early in case we have no Champs League next season?

10 Sep 2017 12:45:28
What a load of rubbish. Yeh your club sign a top player in antisipation of not being in the top 4 come may. They're buying players preparing to fail this season. Some of
The things I read are unreal. Jon moss has an agenda against Liverpool for giving the correct decision. Come on.

10 Sep 2017 12:45:34
It was 5-4 game when Klopp had his glasses broken when Lallana scored last minute.

10 Sep 2017 12:55:18
Just because those "incidents" probably didn't get the right decision (from your point of view), doesn't mean Mane shouldn't have been sent off yesterday. He was right, it was dangerous play and Mane should have gone. So refs are inconsistant, they miss certain decisions and get them wrong, probably more than most teams would like. what's new? I don't think refs have it in for any club so to speak, they are human and maybe some aren't very good but at least they aren't very good for all the teams they ref. There is no conspiracy.

10 Sep 2017 13:12:10
Despite the high foot, Bellerin did not make contact with Salah. Maybe a yellow would have been appropriate.

You can't compare the 2 incidents. Mane's foot connected with Ederson's head. Bellerin's didn't. If he did, he probably would have been sent off as well.

10 Sep 2017 13:28:41
It was an accidental collision, accidents happen in every walk of life? Football is a "Contact Sport " yes/ no?

Otamendi had already been booked when fernandinho brought mane down on edge of box and otamendi deliberately carried on into mane, and also otamendi went in on Migs in second half when migs on ground. hope carra shows monday night.

Irish rover if there is no conspiracy why did Watfords first and third goals count, that's not one conspiracy its TWO in one game.

{Ed025's Note - are those grapes you are eating tasting a bit sour 007?, all these conspiracy theories just wont wash mate and its no wonder your fans have gained a poor reputation with allegations like that..

10 Sep 2017 13:53:41
Moss stuck 2fingers up and laughed at klopp when klopp tried to shake his hand at the final whistle. agenda never.

{Ed025's Note - love it kloppcat..

10 Sep 2017 14:16:37
I think its time for you to follow another sport 007. Do we still have a conspiracy page?

{Ed025's Note - yes we do irish..

10 Sep 2017 14:33:06
Have anyone seen Ederson on his injury? He had what 5 stitches on his face!

10 Sep 2017 14:56:16
ed 025 to be fair all footy fans have a poor reputation not just Liverpool fans.

{Ed025's Note - some more than others though mate..

10 Sep 2017 15:44:21
Stand united is right. Of course the ref doesn't have an agenda against liverpool.

We signed kieta like that because he is a top player who lots of people will be interested in. Also klopp is German and in Germany this type of deal is not uncommen.

Of course we might not finish in the top four, there are six teams going for four spots. And let's not forget it's liverpool who finished there last year and not utd.

10 Sep 2017 16:56:21
Superred, you know that much about KIETA that you can't even spell his name RIGHT (Naby KEITA is correct spelling) .

And in case you don't know KEITA scored on Friday Night and went off straight down the tunnel with a GROIN injury that may require surgery.

Its no use talking about finishing FOURTH last season as that is now History, i live for tomorrow not yesterday!

10 Sep 2017 16:51:39
Although on reflection, Mane was a red card (although we've all seen similar challenges go unpunished, Rio Ferdinand and Saloman zealous for example), Moss did bottle sending off Otamendi for a wild two footed challenge on Mane, which was not only reckless but was with the intent of taking the player out. Agenda against us is hard to argue, but as a ref, he's definitely a homer.

{Ed025's Note - an agenda against you is not hard to argue MR D...its impossible mate as one doesn,t and has never existed, mistakes do of course happen but its not all against picked on, hard done by, victimized liverpool mate..

11 Sep 2017 11:33:41
There is no agenda, you can't blame the referee for giving a correct decision. We were awful after the sending off and had zero organisation in defence and midfield. Like why do our full backs bomb forward when the ball Is not fully under our control? Why did our midfield not put pressure on the ball when our defenders were high? These are questions that should be asked about the game not wether there's a conspiracy against us. We create our own problems.

10 Sep 2017 09:22:35
Ed01,
It's pretty obvious on here what almost all fans think about our poor centre backs. Can I ask you what you are hearing from the club regarding our very poor defense. Is it bad coaching or is it that the players aren't good enough to do what's being coached into them?

I know I keep rehashing he same thing but with no option to bring in players till the next window isn't there someone at the club saying we need a dedicated defensive coach?

{Ed001's Note - the players are just not good enough mate, which is why we are trying to replace them. They do the job in training and seem to be getting it, but on matchdays they just lose the plot. There are a number of things that have been tried, but the players are just not performing when it comes to the actual moment it matters. If they are replaced and it still isn't working, then a dedicated defensive coach would be the next step.}

10 Sep 2017 10:27:19
Thanks mate, silk purses with sows ears so.

{Ed001's Note - exactly mate. If only it was as easy to replace centre backs as to say it. You only have to look at City to see how difficult it is right now. Even with more money to spend than any other club in world football they have not been able to recruit decent centre backs.}

10 Sep 2017 10:33:22
Players are just not good enough. Then why did the club . in buy them?

10 Sep 2017 10:44:27
Is it because defensive player scouts are less knowledgeable, there is more premium on finding the next attacking superstar or there are few very good centre backs?

Also, what about managers like Conte and Jose who still seem to be able to get the best out of not great CBs, they are tough to break down but still win titles and trophies, are they great managers or have they exceptional backroom defensive teams?

{Ed001's Note - I think it is more about very few good centre backs, especially those who can play well in a more attacking line up. Conte has Kante to protect the defence, Jose plays a very defensive system, which helps protect the defenders.}

10 Sep 2017 11:01:20
Thanks Ed hope I didn't take up too much of your time.

{Ed001's Note - no mate, it's fine. I am prevaricating anyway as there is housework I should be doing....}

10 Sep 2017 11:11:40
Clearly we need a pacey one, which is why we looked at vvd and quickly at koulibaly - can't think of many others mind! Maybe zouma of he gets fit and performs? Bailly would be my pick if anyone really, but never going to happen!
Matip really worried me yesterday, yes klavan made mistakes but it was trying to play football - matip me passing was bad, sliced it many times, and just generally was doing all the wrong things! Gomez has to be given a shot for me.

10 Sep 2017 11:20:00
I knew we were in for it when we played Klavan. He's a liability at the best of times, particularly against mobile quick forwards.

10 Sep 2017 12:01:47
I also think FBs are key - our CBs are error prone but we have also looked a lot better when Gomez has been at RB and Robertson or Milner at LB.

Not dissing TAA but he's still a young man learning his trade and Gomez is clearly more likely to handle Mendy or KDB at the top of their game. TAA should be starting against the lower PL sides where we benefit from his attacking delivery and he can learn the defensive side of the game before stepping up against the worlds best.

10 Sep 2017 11:45:33
Again you lash Klavan, Matip was the worst player on the pitch yesterday, do you watch the games or is it just a Klavan hate thing with you?

10 Sep 2017 12:07:41
But I thought klopp was only trying to replace one centr back in the summer with the VVD purchase?, plus me and my mate don't understand why doesn't he play Gomez he may make mistakes but all of them make loads now whereas Gomez is the only on earth who could improve and learn on them mistakes. Baffled why he doesn't be okay Gomez their.

10 Sep 2017 12:02:57
Following on this ed01, I understand we all want to change the defence. Moreno trains hard and well but struggles on performance, TAA is still young so we can't judge him too soon, similar to Gomez for now. But with lovren and klavan, we all agree they are not good enough, just lose there head and panick. But would you say the same about Matip? Do you rate him and think he is a good defender? Also with the VVD saga. He will be an improvement but was the intention of bringing him in and slowly moving Gomez into the centre. Pushing matip out or just general squad completition?

{Ed001's Note - Matip is a real weak link for me, defensively. Good on the ball but he is so poor at defending. The worst is that he gets caught out a lot but strolls back into position, even when he is just a couple of yards away. A sprint would get him involved again and close the gaps.

Gomez is seen as a future centre back, Matip was only a stop gap signing to give the club time to scout long term centre halves.}

10 Sep 2017 12:44:28
Klavan's problem is he's just too slow for the way we play. If we played a deeper line and the left back wasn't going awol all the time, he probably would play quite well. But we don't, and won't ever, play like that. As it is, he ends up with about twice as much space to cover as he's comfortable with, so he panics and makes basic errors. That in turn rules out any possibility of him, as the most experienced defender at the club, being a steadying influence on things.

Matip at times looks to be the only actual defender in the team, and on others he looks the most suspect of the lot, like yesterday. Lovren's similar, he's liable to put in anything from a rock solid performance to Djimi Traore at his worst. I think it's mental with the two of them. Lovren plain out doesn't concentrate all the time, and Matip seems to give up if his fellow defenders are making errors.

Most of all, none of them show any leadership or organisational skills.

Best bet at center back for us atm is Matip and Gomez.

10 Sep 2017 13:28:36
So glad you said that about Matip Ed001. I said exactly the same on here about him and I'm glad I'm not the only one!

10 Sep 2017 16:49:31
Lovren gomes.

10 Sep 2017 17:00:56
Klavan reminds me of Kvarme. He doesn't look like a footballer let alone a defender. He's not had one decent game in a red shirt and naming him is as good as giving the opposition a goal head start. He has absolutely no awareness of what's going on around him and marry that with zero pace you have a recipe for disaster. Should have been Lovren or Gomes playing, not Klavan. He's bench and league cup games only for me.

11 Sep 2017 11:21:59
If you don't have players who care about defending then you will never have a solid defence.

11 Sep 2017 11:25:58
I think a defensive coach should be the first step right now, especially if we are struggling to recruit CB's.

Maybe it's something the club should be looking to do from say the U18's up.

10 Sep 2017 08:31:12
Not at all concerned by the result as the sending off decided the outcome.

However I struggle to see what if any value Henderson adds to our play. He gives the ball away too much, mainly. plays its sideways or back slowing down our transition from defence to attack and couldn't score in the probervial house of ill repute.

10 Sep 2017 09:52:17
THANK YOUUUUUUUU Some one else isn't afraid to say it just because he's our captain.
Do you honestly believe Gerrard, Hyypia would let the tea, roll over like that.
He isn't a leader and he isn't a game changer, He isn't even a motivator.
We seriously need to stop being loyal to players, who are not just cutting it.

10 Sep 2017 10:55:28
Kopette.

Gerrad was captain when Stoke beat us 6-1.

10 Sep 2017 10:55:54
There are a few who always raised hand against Henderson quality on the pitch. He is the baby face.

10 Sep 2017 12:12:01
So Gerrards legacy is defaulted because of a 6-1 hammering to stoke¿
So the West Ham final, Champions League final.
I really don't see Henderson in that category.

10 Sep 2017 15:12:46
Didn't say that did I Kopette.

Just stating that we have crumbled in the past regardless of who was on the pitch!

Despite Henderson's faults he is OUR captain. Do you think he enjoyed that game yesterday?

Give the lad a break.

10 Sep 2017 05:24:12
Hey ed 025 hope u enjoyed yesterday's match. i mean Liverpool one. not d other.

{Ed025's Note - i was a happy chappy at 3pm sirtoto i must admit, not so much at 5pm though, i think the reds were doing fine in the first half hour and salah could have changed the whole thing, but when mane went (rightfully) it showed how weak the defensive side of liverpool really is mate..

10 Sep 2017 07:52:09
It shows we rely too much on Mane. We still had Can - Hendo, Gini, Firmino and Salah on the pitch and did precisely NOTHING!

{Ed001's Note - it really does not do that at all. Sometimes you just spout nonsense and present it as fact.}

10 Sep 2017 07:56:56
Ed025, you guys conceded 3 with eleven on the pitch at home. That is probably as bad as the hammering LFC got with 10 on the pitch.

City's defence was being shredded in the first half before we had the sending off.

I honestly do not think their defence is any better than ours.

{Ed025's Note - i cant argue with that max, bad day at the office for both of us mate..

10 Sep 2017 08:55:00
We get wat we deserve for not buying the right type of player in window the whole world knew we had to strengthen the defence especially bein in europe, prem, cups an we ignored it, bad strategy, I know we wanted vvd but should ov had back up!

10 Sep 2017 09:18:08
Harry Klopp changed the system and game plan. The players didn't know how to play the system Klopp asked.
The manager got it badly erong today even after the card.

10 Sep 2017 06:53:41
Klopp has to take the responsibility for the severity of the defeat, why would you take off our main attacking threat (Salah) when we were down to 10 men. He should have taken off a midfielder and added studge or solanke to maintain the attacking threat. Bad management in my opinion.

10 Sep 2017 07:50:01
I do agree that it was a poor decision - it was akin to waving a white flag and admitting defeat. I think thisa had an effect on the players which is why they appeared to 'down tools' and stroll through the 2nd half. Red card or not I expect more from the players than that, not giving a 100%, irrespective of the circumstances, is not good enough.

10 Sep 2017 10:28:03
Klopp has shown just how take typically lacking he is.

10 Sep 2017 05:43:08
Thanks for the response ed. cheers. and i totally agree that player can have less quality bt atleast they should try their best when they r playing at d highest level. he is ridiculous at that.

{Ed001's Note - for me it is simple, if you are a defender, all your sprinting should be done getting back and protecting the goal. If you are caught out, then sprint back and then reset to face up the threat. Your objective should be to get your body between the attackers and the goal at all times.}

10 Sep 2017 08:16:14
Ed- which Matip never does. And he didn't do much of it at Schalke either.

{Ed001's Note - exactly.}

10 Sep 2017 04:09:06
Starting back 5 vs Seville

Karius
Gomez, Matip, Lovren, Robertson

That seems our most solid defensive unit (only question is Karius perhaps IMO) and sould have been our starting lineup va City to he honest. we were asking for trouble from the get go, even if difficult to judge the end performance given Mane's sending off.

10 Sep 2017 05:26:05
Not sure how is Mane sending off any relevance to our piss poor backline and mediocre midfield. Mane is an offensive player and if anything we could have scored a few. There was no stopping KDB with or without Mane!

{Ed001's Note - if you can't understand how it is relevant, then you do not understand the game. It really is that simple.}

10 Sep 2017 06:46:25
We conceded one before Mane went off and 3 off the 5 were due stupid defensive errors. Ther backline against City were always going to be punished no matter who plays.

{Ed001's Note - that is not the point, you said having Mane on the pitch has no relevance to the performance, and you can't deny, though I am sure you will try, that Mane being there changes everything that happens afterwards. Not only does it force City to keep more players back, it also means they have less space to operate in, so they would not have found it so easy to pick the defence apart.}

10 Sep 2017 07:09:22
Spot on ED001, It's surprising how people can't understand the Impact of having Mané sent off.

{Ed001's Note - especially for a pressing team, a gap in the press kills it.}

10 Sep 2017 07:13:57
That is one of the many If's you are laying out Ed01. A man down is a man down I agree. But we were crap at the back. I saw Chelsea 3 down against burnley with 2 man down yet scoring 2 back. A man sent off is not the end of the world. This could happen again. We were poor and all over. It is very easy to score against us, A man down or not!

{Ed001's Note - it is not an if. It is a definite that it changes things. The ifs are the ones you are making that we would have been just as crap if he had played. You are simply wrong. There is no debate here, you are mistaken and need to just accept that and move on.}

10 Sep 2017 12:10:29
Harry, our whole system is built around cutting down the space, closing down the passing lanes and pressing the man on the ball. Lose one person from the front line and it leaves City able to push forward down that side, a midfielder has to step off his man to stop him, leaving overlaps against the back 4.

Could we have changed system entirely? Yes but we aren't trained like a Pulis or a Mourinho team defensively speaking so we can't expect to suddenly play like one.

10 Sep 2017 02:44:33
Hindsight is a wonderful thing but playing Moreno and Klavan was a strange one from the beginning. TAA was also struggling straight away but will be great experience for the kid. Lovren, Gomez and Robertson would have made more sense. Also thought the subs were a big off. Down to 10 men, we should have went to a 3-5-1 with Lovren and Ox on and Moreno and TAA off. 3 Cbs, Salah and Ox on the wings and wini, Henri and Can in the centre. Hitting them on he counter attack was he only option and this option requires pace. Although Salah was guilty of missing a few, he was getting the chances and with both Otamendi and Fernandinho on yellows, I don't understand why we didn't get at them. Otamendi couldn't afford another bad challenge and taking Salah of made things easy for them. Lots to learn from which is the only good thing to take away from the game and we need to put it behind us. Learn from this, adapt and we will be better for it.

09 Sep 2017 22:36:39
Hi Ed001,

I'm aware this is not Liverpool related, but just wanted your thoughts about how you rated Raul? (Not Raul Meireles, I mean the Madrid legend)

Thanks.

{Ed001's Note - it depends on which side of him you mean really. In terms of his play, he was a quality player, a goalscorer who was very good at getting involved in the build up. Wasn't much of a threat in the air like, but on the ground his touch and technique was excellent.

Off the pitch he was a problem for the club, as he was the centre of player power and the beginning of all the issues they have had due to his special treatment. He was treated like a king, rather than a footballer, which meant it went to his head a bit. A lot at times.}

10 Sep 2017 00:12:33
As I have said on numerous occasions.
Teams are built from the back not the front.
Today's result does not surprise me.

Top class goalkeepers can make a difference.
We do not have a top class goalkeeper.
Our defenders lack leadership.
Our midfield lacks authority.

Arsenal were poor. We have just arrived back in the real world.

Beat Arsenal 4-0 one week.
Lose 5-0 to City the next game.

This pattern will be repeated.

When the transfer window closed, these matters became apparent.

Utd have tight arse Mourinho.
City have canny Guadiola.
Chelsea have the astute Conte who knows how to defend.
Tottenham are useful.

Here's hoping for fifth place.

10 Sep 2017 00:42:44
I agree with a couple of your points but we lost to m. city away with 10 men most of the game. we made city look like a good team they've beat brighton and struggled, were lucky to get a point against Everton, and struggled to beat Bournemouth there no world beaters-- if SALAH had took them chances in the first 25mins witch i think sturridge would of burried might of been a different game--we all know the defence is not good enough and you have got to blame the manager or transfer commitie for not sorting it out in this transfer window.

10 Sep 2017 02:37:31
Yes, pretty much.

I am old enough to remember when Bill Shankly built from the back.
It was not particularly pretty, but it gave Bob Paisley a foundation stone for later success.

10 Sep 2017 08:37:10
equally Hard not to over react as it is to over-play the impact of the red card. So maybe best thing to do is just move onto the next game!?