Liverpool Banter Archive July 02 2016

02 Jul 2016 22:45:18
Following on from the discussion earlier about a betting company sponsoring us.

I just got around to reading the replies and someone said about how betting can destroy lives.

I mean deary me, I know a lot more people who have ruined their lives with alcohol. I don't recall any complaints about Carlsberg being our main sponsors for the majority of the premier league era.

Just seems like people are looking for a stick to beat our owners with, yet again.

If anyone is genuinely stupid enough to see a Liverpool training kit and think "you know what, I might throw my life away on gambling" then I'm sorry but that is not the fault of the club, or the betting company. The fault lies solely at the feet of the person who betted irresponsibly.

And just for the record, I have never even been into a bookies. I occasionally put the odd £1 accumulator on using an online site. Bet I have never bet more than £1 at once. So I'm defending it because I like it!

02 Jul 2016 23:38:28
Should say "So I'm not defending it because I like. "

03 Jul 2016 00:10:39
Dead on, nice post. People just want something to complain about when it comes to FSG.

03 Jul 2016 02:20:31
Just because you enjoy it, and are capable of gambling sensibly, doesn't me it is a good idea or that everybody else has the same amount of restraint. The scientific literature does not support your contention that is solely the fault of the person who gambled in the first place either. Like all forms of addiction (addiction is classified as a mental health condition) gambling addiction is more than a person "deciding" to throw money away - it is an uncontrollable behaviour that spirals into chaos. Just like how lots of people can drink alcohol without issue there is a percentage of people who will become addicts - those addicts only need 1 drink and that's it, the control is gone. The same applies to betting - most people might put on the odd accumulator or have the odd flutter but there is a percentage who, once they start, cannot stop. They are not "choosing" to ruin their life, they are addicts and they need help not encouragement.

I believe the clubs image and ethos is very important to how it is perceived, both in England and abroad, and I don't think it needs to have a betting company anywhere near it. This is not having a go at FSG, this is me saying that, i mu opinion, this is a poor move by the club.

03 Jul 2016 02:54:15
That wasn't the reason I complained about the betting company logo on the shirts. I wasn't using it to moan about FSG, who I happen to think have been as good as anyone could have been. Try reading the posts properly. It's a complaint in moral grounds; I would rather alcohol, payday loan companies and betting firms were all banned from shirts. By the way, Barcelona give money to UNICEF, not the other way round.

03 Jul 2016 03:07:14
I disagree. The availability of online betting will attract more people towards it so I don't necessarily think that it is solely at the feet of the person, the company will also have some level of blame. Its like saying heroin addiction has nothing to do with drug dealers. Although there are lots of other factors in play I think it's safe to say that there is a positive correlation between the two. Not that I oppose a betting company sponsoring Liverpool. It's exactly like what you said regarding Carlsberg.

03 Jul 2016 06:22:56
You are speaking from a position of ignorance MK, I've seen what gambling can do to a person first hand, a family member of mine a few years back was blowing his wages on FOBT, in the bookies, some days going without food.

Your trivialising a very serious subject to defend the owners, which is abhorrent in my eyes, and I suggest you research gambling addiction before making such stupid comments.

03 Jul 2016 06:35:59
Would you not have an issue with Benson and Hedges advertising on the shirts then, MKScouser?

03 Jul 2016 08:41:39
Every other advert on the tv during the footy is a gambling advert. A few words on a training topic nothing compared to that. Get down off your high horses and enjoy the fact that we're still commercially attractive at the moment. This deal helps pay towards our club.

03 Jul 2016 09:50:34
Just because its ubiquitous, doesn't mean its right unicorn.

03 Jul 2016 10:34:40
Choose your scumbag.
Most major corporations have ruined someone's life directly or indirectly whether it be gambling, sugar, alcohol, cigarettes, tax dodging or financial institution causing global recessions. None of them should be trivialised.

Your damned whichever you choose IMO.

03 Jul 2016 10:48:40
Fair enough guys.

Let's just get back to talking about transfers, tactics and stuff rather than argue amongst ourselves.

I see where people are coming from, but it's just coming across as the 21st century PC brigade to me. Whereas to you lads, I'm bound to be considered ignorant. That's just the way of the world today, so no change there ;)

03 Jul 2016 10:51:43
waro, agree with what you are saying, I've seen a friend lose everything through online gambling, but there is no difference between alcohol, drugs or gambling; all destroy lives.

03 Jul 2016 11:12:12
100% agree with that Ron.

03 Jul 2016 11:56:10
Barcelona pay UNICEF but also have a mega-deal with Qatar Airways for their shirt-fronts and a deal with Beko for their sleeve. Maybe best not to talk about working conditions in Qatar if we're taking moral high-ground?

I don't particularly like a betting company on our kits but no bank or alcohol or loan company is any better.

{Ed001's Note - the deal with UNICEF was purely to get the fans to accept shirt sponsorship, it is not through altruism at all. The deal with Qatar is far more than just the airline on the front of the shirts as well.}

03 Jul 2016 12:01:36
I would just like to highlight this part of your message MK "If anyone is genuinely stupid enough to see a Liverpool training kit and think "you know what, I might throw my life away on gambling" " as someone stated this is speaking out of ignorance in I'm being honest. I'm speaking from a point of view of someone who has had a bad gambling addiction and has had to seek help, but people don't see the advertisements and think they're going to gamble their life, it's more towards people who already have the addiction or are dealing with the addiction, same way if someone quitting smoking smells smoke as they walk past and then suddenly want one themselves, or as stated someone quitting heroin sees their drug dealer on the street and the temptation automatically starts, well a gambling addict seeing a betting company every weekend they watch there team play can have the same affect I'm not saying it will to everyone but to a minority of people it really will.

03 Jul 2016 13:26:05
@ Mike g. WHAT?

03 Jul 2016 17:48:38
@Anniefields that's completely different. B&H advertisement, like all tobacco advertisement here, is illegal so no that wouldn't be preferred .

MK isn't saying he's supporting it as much as he just doesn't see it as so bad. In this world most advertising can be questioned ethically. Alcohol sponsors on football shirts for a fan base with a culture of drunken violence / McDonald's sponsoring kids athletics and sports tournaments.

They don't match up and in an ideal world we'd all get rid of them but they pay the bills. This is NOT an FSG problem this is a worldwide culture issue.

02 Jul 2016 21:51:47
Looking likely Lovren will be named captain next season.

02 Jul 2016 23:45:00
Have I missed something?

02 Jul 2016 23:50:52
Haha, from a guy on Twitter I may add who has no history of being reliable.

02 Jul 2016 20:20:59
i guess next season we will see premiership teams ditching the 4-2-3-1 in favour of the 3-5-2 line up judging by the success had play teams deploying this formation in the Euros
Just as last season the 4-3-3 was ditched by most teams.

02 Jul 2016 22:22:25
4-2-2-2 is the way to go like our greatest sides and the incredible Brazil 82 team.

03 Jul 2016 08:04:02
Brazil used 3-5-2 in 2002 and had no problem winning the WC, winning every game they played. I've always loved this formation and the last team to use it to perfection wast the Costa Rica team of 2014 with Kaylor Navas in goal. They showed that if you have the right player personnel, you can succeed with it. Italy played it well too because Lippi used it a lot while Conte played at Juve and Dino Zoff used it at Euro 2000 again, where Conte was a starter. Hence as Juve coach, Conte used it and Allegri now does the same so the transition was seamless.

02 Jul 2016 18:59:37
Liverpool are a joke concerning buying players. We pay far too much for mane but pay what Southampton will accept yet mess about with zeilinski at 12 million or close to that. I'm surprised many clubs still do business with us.

02 Jul 2016 19:08:17
So they are damned if you do and damned if you dont? Will Mane be too much at £30 million if he has a blinding season? Will Zeilinski be too much if he is a squad player and hardly gets a kick? I would suggest holding off until the end of the season before going into hyperbole. You just don't know how it will pan out.

02 Jul 2016 19:21:29
Al buddy. Do you not think it's what the club see's players worth. I don't think Mane is worth is £32-£34m yet. Ultimately it's upto the club to find a agreement with the selling club for the player/ we are interested in. The one factor with Mane is, he does have PL proven experience. Okay it doesn't add £20m+ to his price tag. It's still what LFC were prepared to pay. Maybe they only see Zeilinski as £10m (? ) player and no more.

02 Jul 2016 19:25:50
People where saying that about firminho whan he was signed.

02 Jul 2016 19:29:50
Irish
Maybe you should read the posts on the page. I've a feeling you stare at the words for a length of time trying to interrupt info.
I could have sworn the edd's have said at different times that Liverpool have messed about club's and players concerning attempting to buy.
Definitely could have sworn I've read that a few times but maybe I might be wearing your glasses and oblivious to some of our dealings and how the club conducts itself.

02 Jul 2016 19:35:00
Gazza mate
Type zeilinski into the search engine. Edd001 mentions loosely how we conducted ourselves regarding zeilinski.
This is what my point was getting at.

02 Jul 2016 20:00:30
Big Al = doubter 😠.

02 Jul 2016 20:44:07
So if your issue is with how Liverpool dealt with Zeilinski which i agree with then why bring Mane into it? As i have said you or i or anyone else have a clue if £30 million is too much. You didn't want him, you brought into his "bad attitude" and youve got your knickers in a twist ever since. You don't need to bring it up on every post to make your point. Big Al didn't want Mane, move on.

02 Jul 2016 22:12:02
I reckon your a manc big Al. 😱 just sayin.

02 Jul 2016 22:39:54
I get your point Al, in how we conduct our business. My only thing is saying we paid too much for Mane, the price of players is on the rise and £30 mil is the new £20 mil if you get my meaning. The money is rediculous and not worth talking about anymore as it leaves us all shaking our heads.
If business is done correctly we get the player we want, but pay a lot more it seems. If we find other routes and the player wants to leave, then it's regarded as tapping up, the price is lower but the transfer will take longer - but will generally happen.
Not a perfect formula, just a general observation. We need to change they way we do business, negotiate in the correct routes and keep it clean.
Don't think of Mane as a £, judge him as a player once he has played at least.

02 Jul 2016 23:32:05
Waro I have thought that a few times myself!

02 Jul 2016 19:16:49
Nothing to do with the money. We tapped up the player which pissed Udinese off, Hence they have no interest in a deal with us. Had we approached straight forward Zielinski would have been a Liverpool player a month ago for his actual price or even less.

03 Jul 2016 00:27:22
We get destroyed for jerking other clubs around about their valuations of players and when we actually pay what a club asks, its criminal overpayment on our part. Going rate for players is going up, get used to it. Our own Joe Allen, whom we valued at 10 mil going into the Euros, will probably fetch 12-15 mil now if LFC decided to sell.

03 Jul 2016 00:54:20
Big al spends a lot of time at the united page, posts a lot on there.

03 Jul 2016 08:06:28
Al, if we pay what they ask, you say we pay over the odds. If we stick to our guns and not get jerked around, you say we are messing about. Make up your mind, pls.

02 Jul 2016 17:34:37
Liverpool after Sissoko of Newcastle, the player wants to go Arsenal though. not a player I would look at personally, but in this case I think we do need a strong powerful cm. Our squad looks a little short and weak IMO.

02 Jul 2016 18:19:19
He's French after French players what's to work under Wenger.

02 Jul 2016 19:27:21
They have Xkaka. Not going to sign Sissoko too.
He's not consistent enough to be considered for us. Where we going to play him? Hendo, Can, Stewart, Lucas and Grujic already at the club as centre midfielders.

02 Jul 2016 17:51:45
Sissoko wouldn't improve us at all.

03 Jul 2016 08:07:49
Whatever Sissoko added to Newcastle that got them relegated, I want none of it at LFC.

02 Jul 2016 15:36:02
Ed just wondering if Grujic needs to registered in the 25 man squad or is it only home grown players under 21 that don't have to be?

{Ed002's Note - He is under 21 so no.}

02 Jul 2016 16:43:49
Concerning communication amongst the team, most especially in the defence, I honestly believe this was a major part of the problem. Was this a language thing or a chemistry thing?

02 Jul 2016 17:10:15
it was a Skrtel (poor communication) / BR problem, it has been solves by JK.

02 Jul 2016 17:31:19
Partly solved by Klopp but we still gave far too many silly and soft goals away.

02 Jul 2016 19:12:44
I agree natural poolie. Our defensive issues have been far from sorted out and its not all down to Skrtel.

02 Jul 2016 17:55:18
Definitely not SOLVED. In our last game we conceded 3 goals in the 2nd half in a major European final.

02 Jul 2016 14:50:07
There's a statement on here that should never die and should make it into the book of football quotes (if there's anything like that) :
"A great team can beat a team of greats. "--Andy K, July 1, 2016.

Priceless in my opinion!

02 Jul 2016 17:26:24
Definitely. We've all seen it many times.

02 Jul 2016 20:48:12
Thanks Noski although i don't think i can claim it as mine.

02 Jul 2016 14:21:21
Eds (especially 002), I know you always say not to get hung up on the money, but who at the club was drunk and turned down the 25 million for benteke? Obviously he's a good player in the right system and still young. And I know we want to minimize our losses. But come on! We need to start getting rid of some players. And if they don't come back with a second offer, we could be stuck. We're already going to have one hell of a time selling ballotelli, markovic, Moreno etc etc. Just seems crazy if you ask me.

02 Jul 2016 15:36:53
The club believe Palace will pay the 30 million eventually. Why settle for 25 when we know Palace have a lot of dosh to throw around? Benteke will be like a marquee signing for them, and Pardew will not want to miss out.
Have patience my friend.

02 Jul 2016 164:36:21
Palace to sign Benteke. Avoid the money the club will recoup as much as possible.

02 Jul 2016 17:09:44
We paid 32 mil i believe for him i think 30mil is a fair return considering he is pretty fresh from sitting on the bench all season for both club and country.

If we have to fork out for players i see no reason for us not to maximise the value of our own when selling.

02 Jul 2016 13:43:10
Hi Eds, I'm curious, is Mario Balotelli likely to get a chance to impress Jurgen in pre-season or are we going to pack him off to China when the first offer comes in?

{Ed002's Note - Why would he want to go to China? As I have said, Liverpool is completely overrun with forwards - space needs to be made in the bloated and ballooning squad.}

02 Jul 2016 12:45:11
Eds/ Reds

Can i ask if an Ed or any posters has any idea who makes these crazy decisions i mean betting companies who are disgusting and don't deserve to be promoted hell no!

Then there was the ticket pricing and I'm just wandering who is it behind these decisions is it one person? a committee? Its really annoying it also creates tension between us fans i understand we need money but we can't sell our soul not for any price! YNWA.

{Ed002's Note - It is the club who is responsible.}

02 Jul 2016 14:44:53
Wint, does that mean he will / won't be sold.

02 Jul 2016 10:58:15
Hi Ed001

As an older statesman I have always been of an opinion of trying to support players who show their support for the club, even when they are going through poor patches.
Its sad to see people using social media to lambast players constantly, and even worse people who have little knowledge of football echoing the opinions of otheres (such as yourselves) just as an excuse to feel some kind of self importance.

Joe Allen is a perfect case in point. Every time Joe Allen has put on a red shirt he has given 100%, Noteably he has good and bad games but his desire to play well has never been in doubt. Its a very similar scenario to Lucas - I remember the amount of people who had a go at him calling him useless, and through his detemination he became one of the most reliable players in the team.
Someone on the site said let's get rid of Allen and play Brannagan or Chiverella, wow what a statesment, do we really want to throw these youngsters in with some of the supporters we have - they will be teared to shreds ruining thier confidence for good. Jordon Ibe looks teriffied when he plays for Liverpool, and that's probably from the vile he reads on social media.
Joe Allen is not the best player in the world but as a squad player he is someone any manager would want, he trains hard, is commited and when called upon rarely let's us down, as it proved many times last season. In all Wales games he has been consistently one of the top 3 plaers, controlling the tempo of the game, keeping the passing short and neat. He has the support of the fans and shows it.

I know your not that keen on Allen but that's football its all about opinions, however when you hear the dross on hear, most of it just echoing your opinions by sychophants, it gets my back up.

Just a little gripe on the people who use the site to constantly troll our players.

Thanks ED001.

{Ed001's Note - actually he let us down repeatedly. The opposition midfield constantly ran past him like he didn't exist.}

02 Jul 2016 11:48:40
The problem is as much as he's been wonderful for Wales your trying to compare international football which is slow to the demands of the prem which is fast, I like Joe he's a tryer and a battler and in the right system he looks good, but he just doesn't have much of a role here with the mountain of midfielders we do have, Stewart isn't exactly 19 anymore and the other lads need games before we start wasting anymore young talent like we have in the past
Just a note to either ed01 or 02 any news on Alberto? Is he back for pre-season and is he definitely one who wants to leave? I caught him a few times last season and thought he'd do a job under Klopp big shame if he's going i reckon but i suppose we can't house so many midfielders at once.

{Ed001's Note - the club wants him gone if possible.}

02 Jul 2016 11:58:51
Cheers buddy, would we be hopeful of a fee? Or is he just going to be set free as it were? It doesn't matter to me it just seems a waste of talent once again.

{Ed002's Note - The club will want a fee.}

02 Jul 2016 12:10:47
Joe Allen fee 25 million.

02 Jul 2016 13:20:41
Evered, I abhor abuse of players as well but there is a difference between that and commentary. As fans we should talk about who's playing well and who's not, it's what being a fan is all about.

Job's been at the club for for years and the odd good performance does not make up for the fact that he hasn't had a positive influence on the team. Liverpool aren't in a position where they can carry a player because he tries hard. We need to get better and that means replacing under performing players.

When Joe leaves I'll say Thank-you very much and welcome him whenever he returns but I do think it's time for him to go.

02 Jul 2016 16:36:48
I was the poster who mentioned Chivarella and Brannagan so allow me to retort. Allen is a player who has been, at best, mediocre. He has constantly failed to perform and has shown that he can offer little (in either attack of defence) consistently. I know you might be wetting your pants because he came of the bench for us and looked good a couple of times, or because he has played well in an International tournament were the standard has been lower than most top tier European leagues, but he is not good enough. We have no European football next season, we have at least three players currently in the squad ahead of him (Can, Henderson, Milner - I don't agree with that last choice but hey ho) another who I think is far better than him (Lucas) and a couple of youngsters who really need to be given more chances to prove themselves (Chivarella and Brannagan) . Oh and we are also looking at Zielinski and seem likely to sign him. On what planet does keeping hold of Joe Allen make sense?

You talk about Allen giving 100% and trying to do well - so what? That should be the bare minimum for players pulling on the red shirt. He doesn't deserve praise for that, because it's what I expect every player to do. He ran about a lot, in a similar vein to Milner actually, but it completely ineffective in the middle. He has never looked an effective player for us and we have much, much better within the squad and potentially much better in the academy. This is my reasoning for him to leave.

For the record I never said throw in Brannagan or Chivarella into the first team but guess what? When they have been they've looked good! Much better than Allen! So I hope Klopp gives them more chances. There is also a big difference between criticising established players and youth prospects - if Allen was 18 I would, of course, not be so blunt. But he isn't, he's 26 and shows no sign of improving - I'm not being horrible to him, or trying to be obnoxious, I'm simply stating my opinion on the player and his role at the club - he hasn't done enough and, in the current circumstances, needs to be moved on. You have offered no reason, so far as I can see, to change my mind.

02 Jul 2016 16:20:12
There is a lot of hype and euphoria surrounding Allen right now. Its a genuine opportunity for the club to recoup at least 10-12 million for him than let him walk for free next summer. Allen does not fit into Klopp's high intensity play, so better to move him on. Our 2 man midfield also looks lightweight and easily penetrable when Allen's part of it, so move him on. His performances at the Euros has no bearing on his LFC career. The pace and intensity of football in the BPL and Euros is totally different so thinking that Allen's form will continue into next season is just ridiculous.

02 Jul 2016 10:39:16
This what Balotelli said at a short press conference before flying back to Liverpool "My future is hopefully at Liverpool and definitely not at Milan, who let me go and to whom I won't return and on a scale of 1 to 10, my last two seasons have been a 5 and Conte was right not to choose me as I have underperformed due to injuries and other reasons. But I want to improve and get to Ballon d Or levels. "

Yeah right lad prove us all wrong then.

02 Jul 2016 11:02:00
You'll still have the Klopp crowd saying klopp can make him a star hahaha.

02 Jul 2016 12:43:13
He only stated a few months ago he was saying was never happy at Liverpool and wanted to stay in Milan, guys a tool.

02 Jul 2016 13:29:12
Red - people can change their minds. The team sucked when he was here. And that wasnt all down to him.

02 Jul 2016 17:40:49
The last time he played for us was under Brenda so maybe now Klopp here he could of had a change of heart. Plus the press only print what sells papers and people are constantly quoted out of context. Not sticking up for the guy just saying.

02 Jul 2016 10:05:35
I think we should buy Will Griggs, may be a player swap with balotelli. He is a good finisher, a fox in box type striker what we r missing at this moment, someone who can score 20+ goal. He could be our Vardy.
I can feel the "will griggs" song being sang in anfield in full voice.
To be honest i just wat us to have the copyrights for "will griggs " song, possibly we can get the song to #1 in uk charts. Any chance ed?

02 Jul 2016 12:40:47
How about not buying another striker over already 3 at the club? Let's keep the money and spend it on a top class CM / DM. Someone who would stand like a mountain in the middle and we would concede very very less?

02 Jul 2016 13:29:06
Brother that's sarcasm. And all I want is to sing the song in anfield.

02 Jul 2016 09:09:27
Not Liverpool per se ....

{Ed002's Note - Take it to one of the relevant pages please.}

02 Jul 2016 05:12:01
Who do you guys think will be the biggest success out of our newest recruits? Personally i see Matip as the one who could stay a long time and make the CB role his own. Grujic is a bit of an unknown quantity, Mane could be phenomenal or a flop and Karius would need to be pretty special to stand out as a keeper. But something in Matip suggests we could possibly have a calm, dominant CB in the mould of Agger.

02 Jul 2016 06:36:28
To be honest I have high hopes for all and think we have done really well and been quite savvy in the market.

Really looking forward to seeing Mane, Karius and Matip all of whom I think will go straight into the first team.

Grujic and the possible zielinski and chilwell may have to wait a little longer in my opinion.

I'm only unsure about zielinski but that's based on what I've read about him so admittedly I'm not in a position to judge. Fingers crossed!

02 Jul 2016 07:05:42
I remember posting a couple of years ago when we were linked with Papapapadopopopoulopolops from Schalke and watched a few of their games and Matip was the one for me who stood out in every game and remember asking the Eds could we get him instead. The reply? 'not at this time'

02 Jul 2016 07:09:53
Im looking forward to 2018 when we have Dahood and Grujic if things go to plan, I expect Can to be sold for upwards of 50m by then. Juventus are looking to get in cheaper this summer now Pogbas on the way.

02 Jul 2016 09:33:54
Hard to tell, hard to pick just one.
Karius, if he settles quickly will make a huge difference.
Matip, same.
Mane has the potential to transform our attack so again could make a huge difference.

I will pick Karius as the one with the most potential to improve our team so far, but that depends on if he actually gets in the team quickly and does enough to stay there, also depends on how the defence decides to behave this season.

Also the most important signing could very well be a left back, whoever it is, I hope it's the right person, we really really need to strengthen here.

02 Jul 2016 10:35:12
If we get the sync right between Coutinho, Firmino and Mane, I have a feeling that Mane can surprise a lot of people. We saw this with Suarez when he moved up by quite a few steps when the team played around him to his strengths. But I have this eerie feeling that Klopp will play only two of those three at any given time. He'll always have Milner or Lallana in, because he likes defensive abilities as high up the pitch as possible. And consequently, I think Klopp is more willing to let Coutinho or Firmino go, then the rest of us.

02 Jul 2016 14:27:41
I said this earlier before about Mane. He may be trouble like Suarez, but if he clicks, he could easily hit those 20-goal season heights of Suarez too. Let's see how it all plays out.