Liverpool Banter

01 May 2024 21:46:41
Greetings Ed001, Trust you are well. A question for you (and sorry if it puts you on the spot a bit) .

Mohammed Salah and Virgil Van Dijk. Sell this summer or extend for a year?

I have mixed feelings about both and actually can't decide.

Is it time to turn the page fully on our incredible trio of Salah, Firmino and Mane? I would say yes, for the sake of the remaining forwards on the team. Do you sell for the money? No, because 60-70 million doesn't guarantee you 20-25 goals per year, the way it used to.

I thought VVD had reached his plateau last year, but it turns out he was shaking off that lost year to injury and captaincy has raised his performances to a much higher playing level. So I would extend for another year. But then is it better to give a new head coach a clean slate to mold his team his way, starting off with the older players? Matip is leaving, and if VVD is sold, then you give Konate and Quansah a new partner on the left for the next foreseable 4-5 years? And let's not forget Gomez.

{Ed001's Note - depends on if we have replacements lined up. If so, sell. If not, then it is not an option. I would certainly expect us to be looking to phase them both out even if they stay.}

01 May 2024 15:07:23
Ed1 and fellow reds here, one month left for Klopp as our manager. I want to ask you Ed1, if you could pick one signing as the best signing under Klopp reign, who could it be?

For me its between Alisson, Van Dijk and Salah. But I'm going to go with Alisson. Because of how hard it is to find a world class goalkeeper compared to a winger or a CB. Also because of how he can single handedly saves us many times and just how good he actually is.

{Ed001's Note - I think I would have to go with the same choice. Also because it was the moment when he showed that he can be ruthless when needed. Klopp had been intending to give Karius the chance to redeem himself, but Karius arsed about with his LK1 'brand' rather than working to improve. So Klopp immediately went out and bought Alisson, just before everyone else jumped into the market for a keeper. It ended up causing a ripple effect which led to a panic buy of Kepa for a record fee for a keeper by Chelsea as they had missed out on Ali. So it also helped weaken a rival as Kepa was terrible.}

01 May 2024 17:31:44
Favourite Liverpool player of all time is Alisson. I don't think many people, including some of our own supporters, realise how good he is. Best goalie I've seen in my lifetime.

{Ed025's Note - hes a great keeper AW but for me Clemence was probably better if only for his longevity mate, im afraid he would struggle to get in the top 20 of all time great overall Liverpool players though, maybe you are quite young and dont remember the likes of Kenny, Souness, Rush, Keegan, Fowler, Hansen, Neale, Hunt, StJohn, Kennedy, Case, McDermott....and many many more i could mention....i tell you what make that top 50.. :)

01 May 2024 18:06:39
For me the best signing was 4th choice Mo Salah. Take away his agent trying to get him to Madrid since the day and hour he arrived and his odd little hissy fit but what an incredible player, that can’t be denied. So consistent over his time at Liverpool, even this season when he has shown signs of slowing down, still pops up with 20 odd goals. Sure there are right wingers but like Salah? Pure gold.

01 May 2024 18:25:46
You are not Live supporter Ed25. In your neutral view, who do you think is Klopp best signing?

{Ed025's Note - its between VVD, Alisson and Salah mfahmee, the thing is that i dont know how much input Klopp actually had mate..

01 May 2024 18:32:03
The hardest thing is football is scoring goals so it has to be one season wonder 4th choice Salah.

01 May 2024 18:56:19
Ed025 you left out your favourite there. Firmino.

{Ed025's Note - hes not in my top 20 Walkon, nice fella though but underwhelming as a footballer for me mate.. :)

01 May 2024 18:59:53
I d go Allison also but I think mane is also in the conversation. We immediately jumped in standards when he joined too.

01 May 2024 19:07:22
Matip has to be up there considering he was a free.

{Ed025's Note - if he was free...you were robbed Amorin.. :)

01 May 2024 19:22:47
Allison, Salah, VVD and Fabinho for me. All 4 of those equally. Ali, VVD and Fabinho gave us that solid platform for the rest to thrive. Great defences win titles. If you’re not solid at the back then you’re very very unlikely to win titles.

01 May 2024 20:08:53
Klopp had some input into VVD signing for Liverpool, they had a cosy up on the big dipper. VVD for me because he is the one we will miss the most. With Allison out and Mo not playing well we still ended up 3 points clear with 7 games to go.

01 May 2024 20:16:18
Alisson easy for me.
VVD and Salah not a million miles behind though.

01 May 2024 19:59:13
Im more the same age group as ED025, some amazing players over my lifetime. Sometimes forget just how good we have been. So hard to say best plater overall, but best keeper has to be Clemence. A keeper ahead of his time, Ali runs him a close second. Best Manager, PAISLEY always.

01 May 2024 20:36:26
Best keepers? Surely smeichal or van Der sar have to be up there also, bad spelling sorry.

01 May 2024 19:54:44
Ed025 you listed a load of great players there mate but no Barnes. Was that an oversight or do you not rate him?

{Ed025's Note - a bit of a brain fart im afraid Baz, right near the top of that list for me mate and one of the most skillful players i have ever seen mate..

01 May 2024 21:03:16
Alisson for me not only fantastic keeper but a humble lead by example kind of character in the dressing room and that for me is part of why Liverpool has had an amazing run since he arrived
The assist against United and the top corner finish in the dying minutes are bonuses but his ability with his hands make him one of my favourites.

01 May 2024 21:11:35
Mohammed Salah for me. Year in and year out, consistently was available to play, scored that minimum 20 goals a year, broke LFC records regularly and is just a serious professional always at work. Recent touchline hissy fit aside. Alisson and VVD are very serious contenders but just half a step behind Salah, for me.

01 May 2024 21:38:14
Vvd for me. the 1 player when he is out or not at his best we cannot make any attempt to replace.
Weve lost ali+ salah at different times threw the years but we got bye OK. When vvd out or plays below his best we allover the place defensively.

01 May 2024 22:45:35
Rodgers signed Firminho.
Any of the four of Alisson, VVD, Mane or Salah, for me.
Robertson has been outstanding value for what he cost, too.

01 May 2024 06:54:50
If Klopp turns out to be a modern era shanks in terms of the way he turned the club around then we can only hope that Arne is the next Bob.

But how likely is that?

Well let's look at where we are. If we win our last three games that will leave us on 84 points (and I get that looks unlikely right now but go with me) . Unbelievably despite how dire this season appears to be ending that would be Klopp's fourth highest points total in his 9 year tenure.

Statistically 84 points would also be a very good performance historically. In the last 28 seasons (38 game seasons) 84 points would have won the league in 7 seasons. It would have seen you finish second in 21 of those years.

It would leave us 17 points better off than last year. City would only be 2 points better off and Arsenal 5 points better off.

Now I am as gutted as everybody else about how the season has panned out but I do believe when you look at it objectively Arne is picking the team up in quite a good place. Yes there are issues but compare it to the state of the club when Klopp took over. In Rodger's last full season we were 25 points behind the winner. In Klopps season we were 21 points behind. If we finish on 84 we would at most be 7 behind.

And we can all think of a list as long as our arm about things that could have gone better this year.

So given where we are, how close we are and how much room for improvement there is (both defensively and offensively) I think we have reason to be cautiously optimistic that Arne could take us to the next step.

01 May 2024 08:56:37
The club was in a far better position when Klopp took over than when Shankly did. Shankly rebuilt the club, really.

Ever the pessimist, I think Slot has a huge job to maintain where we are never mind take us to the next step.
We are where we are because of Klopp, really. And because we are a fairly well run club but we don't talk about finances so I won't go any further about that 😂.
If Slot is another Klopp, that's brilliant but it's highly unlikely.

Looking for positives, we have been third best this season and City will have their abdication to deal with before not too long, hopefully and Arsenal are a couple of seasons of development in front of us. If we continue to grow then would could narrow the gap but we need a spine like the one Arsenal is starting to finally grow again. If we could get a quality centre half, midfielder and another forward we could make the next step.

01 May 2024 09:49:35
Unfortunately there will never be another Paisley. The greatest manager of all time in my opinion
Up the pool.

01 May 2024 10:03:49
Completely different eras. You simply can’t compare football in the 60s to football today.

Back then any team could win the league, they didn’t need to be the richest club because clubs were much closer together in terms of finances.

In that sense it was easier for Shanks as the gap he needed to bridge wasn’t so big.

In another sense, because clubs were so close in terms of finance it was tougher because the league was so competitive with even the league winners losing regularly.

Today, all you need to do is beat City. End of story. They have by far the best squad because they have had by far the most money for 15 years and have been allowed to spend it as they wish.

That makes it harder because the gap from 8th place to City is huge. You simply can’t lose more than 3 or 4 games a season if you want to finish above them.

In another sense it’s easier because you only have to beat one team.

Either way, football has changed so much it’s futile to try to compare the era of Shanks and Paisley to Klopp and Slot. What will be will be.

01 May 2024 10:30:46
I look at things from a different angle. For personal reasons I dislike the American sports style of management structure. Edwards the boss, then a sports director and a football coach equivalent to a school P. E. Teacher. Not to forget managers for the dinner ladies and the tea swindle. Perhaps this structure will be very successful?
I prefer the old school style of a Klopp, Dalglish, Benitez, Paisley and finally the man who built the bedrock. Bill Shankly.
My way of looking at things. I have dealt with American style management that wants yes men and not strong minded independent types. They like their system.
I like Xabi Alonso and Ruebin Amorim because of my Sporting CP connections.
Good luck anyway. The world of football is changing.

01 May 2024 10:56:34
‘Yes men’ is such a silly and emotionally charged word, Yuri, at least in my opinion.

Everything that is good about humanity, all of its successes, have come from cooperation and teamwork. It is the key to everything.

Klopp understood that, at least initially, and was happy to delegate responsibility to all kinds of experts. Sports scientists, coaches, data analysts, even throw in coaches.

This attention to detail delivered our success, but has been gradually eroded over the last four seasons. Returning to this approach, as far as i am concerned, is crucial.

Furthermore, I think you’re fetishising the myth of the big strong man, the inspirational leader, a god like figure. Such myths are just that, myths. It subscribes to ‘The Great Man’ theory of history, which is critiqued and understood to be bogus by most modern day scholars.

Within the old Liverpool set up, there was a reliance on cooperation and delegation. The Boot Room wasn’t famous for no reason. It was never just Shanks or Paisley, but Fagan, Moran and senior players like Dalglish. Geoff Twentyman was one of the greatest scouts to ever do it and was vital to our success. Further afield, much has been written about Ferguson and his cooperation with David Gill, as well as his consistent rotation of coaches to bring in fresh ideas.

It’s not that the days of The Manager are gone, it’s that they never really existed. It’s the kind of mythologising that paints certain world leaders as totemic, god like figures, completely untouched by external influence, when the reality was very different. I think it is naive and slightly dangerous to boot.

Structures built on cooperation are not full of Yes Men, they are the opposite by definition. Discussion, scrutiny and more democratic decision making are a positive thing. The true Yes Men are working under leaders that don’t share any of the power, and don’t want their decisions challenged. That is the opposite of what this so called ‘American Style Management’ is trying to achieve.

01 May 2024 11:00:09
I should point out that I know you can’t compare like for like and nor was I trying. The comparison was simply that a period of great success followed a period of growth and change in attitudes.

01 May 2024 11:24:14
The original boot room were a collective - they all had a voice. They were generally very knowledgeable but also had specialist areas. They were different characters - Shanks was messianic, Sir Bob was ruthless, Uncle Joe was self effacing and so on. I witter on about the sum of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts and that was never more true than the original boot room and that is acknowledging that each of them was brilliant in their own way.

01 May 2024 11:12:38
Bob was a trophy machine. There’s no chance.

01 May 2024 11:13:42
I thought it was a good post Wassa. Agreed fully. Can’t deny that the last 4 seasons have flattered to receive at times, and at others just been simply woeful compared to the bar this group set themselves. However the first 5 seasons the job Klopp did was a remarkable turnaround. In fact pre-Klopp, our last 4 seasons would’ve been looked on as successful. He’s raised the bar so high that 4th, 2nd, 5th and 3rd place finishes with an FA Cup and two League Cups is now seen as under achievement. That would’ve been lauded as excellent in the first 10-15 years of this century. Klopp’s leaving us in a great position. The side he took over had won 1 League Cup under King Kenny in 9 years! Hats off to Klopp, regardless of whether he peaked in 2020. The drop off since hasn’t been so severe that it’s not recoverable. Slot is coming in to a very strong foundation.

01 May 2024 11:16:39
Not sure there can ever be another Paisley in this current era at LFC. As far as winning is concerened, he was an absolute one-off esp. at the time, IMO. Fergie couldn't hold a candle to him and a lot of the Utd fans know it.

Also remember, we were on top when Paisley took over and he took us up another couple of levels within his tenure that we were effectively the best team on the planet with the league and CL titles to back that up and then some.

If Slot even comes close to what Klopp has achived which is massive, he would have already sealed his own legacy as a legendary LFC manager. Here's to hoping he can do that.

01 May 2024 11:25:55
Anonymous Woolback
I don't live in your perfect world but you are definitely entitled to your opinion. When that is denied we are all in trouble. Unfortunately the world appears to be heading that way?
I have dealt with plenty of 'Yes-Men'. Cooperation should be mutual and not imposed. Take the Independent free thinkers from history and not much is less. You speak a bit like management-man yourself or an academic liberal.
Different views are important. Whomever takes over from Juergen Klopp will have an extremely difficult task. Things should continue for a bit because of his legacy. Then who knows?
Would Citeh be as good without Guardiola?

01 May 2024 11:48:20
Excellent post wassa.

01 May 2024 16:00:18
Slot is not having to do a rebuild job. It’s started. It’s sorting out the defence and looking at the attack, with a defensive midfielder also crucial. MacAllister has been a great signing. Hopefully he will get the best out of Szobo.

01 May 2024 16:53:18
Well some are saying no chance, but as fans we can at least hope so! Why not?
Good post Wassa.