Liverpool Banter Archive May 14 2016

14 May 2016 21:49:17
its going to be interesting tomorrow on who klopp picks for the team . it would be good to see us play a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-4-2, with Ibe on the left wing and Ojo on the right wing with the instructions of getting to the bye line and put crosses in for benteke, just to see how good benteke can be with the right service in the right areas, because it would just be good to see how he does playing to his strenghts, amd just maybe if we do sell him it will add more money on to his price, there is enough players who can play tomorrow that can't play in the final maybe even danny ings up with benteke in a 4-4-2,

no matter what klopp has given me my liverpool fc back under BR we lost are shape and identity, but klopp has turned that around and made me excited to watch our games again, its going to be interesting the way klopp has the team setting up next season and playing after a good pre-season because that's what he has said he likes to do he likes to have a good pre-season so the players know what's expected of them and also its going to be good to see who he buys in the transfer window.

15 May 2016 01:13:54
I like the idea of playing to strengths! Altho i really believe in building a squad with players that will execute your plans. Has to be some flexibility there obviously. I personally think that Origi is the perfect Klopp striker, potentially even more so than Ings and studge. Power, pace, strong in the air, gets in behind. I'm really excited for the kids future.

15 May 2016 04:36:55
I see no reason to change the system Klopp has been employing for almost all the matches, regardless of the personnel that will be involved.

15 May 2016 07:58:47
Origi has fitted into the Klopp style better than our other available strikers through his graft and hold up play. I do believe he will get better. Ings when fit will also play well in our press style. Burnley pressed similar and Ings did really well there.

14 May 2016 21:37:17
Higuain just broke 66 year old serie A goalscoring record 35 goals in a season, missed 3 games due to a ban previous record 34 goals.

For me he is the signing i crave scores goals for fun.

15 May 2016 00:00:54
luis suarez has just finished the season with 60 goals in 52 games including 40 in the league, the best striker on the planet imo, if he was a Liverpool player today playing in klopp's side we would have a great chance of winning the title, higuain whilst being a top striker is uproven in the premier league, also I expect wenger to show a interest in him as the penny might have finally dropped that arsenal need a world class forward to compete in the title race.

15 May 2016 01:35:47
We have 4 good st on are books maybe we should back them instead of giving them 1 year . A Luis Suarez doesn't come around ever year even he could time to get firing in the prem.

15 May 2016 04:04:27
I have no problem with the strikers we have RR, I was just highlighting Suarez's incredible goal feats whilst pointing out that higuian will not be signing for Liverpool sadly for 007, we have 5 different players who have scored 10 goals or more this year instead of 1 goal machine like in previous years. I look forward to seeing our forwards improve under klopp especially danny ings who had already proved me wrong before he got injured.

15 May 2016 08:59:39
Penny dropped with wenger? It will be the same next year. Everyone said it was the goalie and now that's sorted they will win the league. Look what happened. Same every year.

14 May 2016 20:39:05
Just curious if any posters are going to lens for England vs Wales and want to hook up for a pint?!

14 May 2016 21:26:04
My mate Phil bacon is there mate with another 20 people I'll see if I can find out what's places he is going to if u want?

14 May 2016 21:58:22
yeah that would be handy! driving from oxford to lille, once in lens i won't no where to go!

14 May 2016 18:20:19
Anything I can search to find the most recent transfer update - before you say it, I tried 'transfer update' but it's just posters.

{Ed002's Note - There hasn't been one for a while, but try searching on: Lamine }

14 May 2016 18:01:03
Smithy, I can see your point and I do agree with you. Which is why I'm baffled by your attempts to argue with me.

I've said I want to see Lallana replaced with a better player; You have talked about the need for more quality in wide areas as well. You said that it didn't matter if they cut inside or played narrow just that you want more quality and specifically pace; I agree with that. My argument is that we need wide attackers/ forwards and not a traditional "winger".

Perhaps it's a terminology issue but to me a winger is someone like Antonio Valencia, Stewart Downing, Marc Albrighton etc. A player who hugs the touchline and whips dangerous balls into the box. Rafa Silva is not an orthodox winger. He may have pace, but that doesn't make him a winger in my opinion. Ibe isn't really a winger. How many times does he go past a full back and whip a cross in? He is always cutting inside. Wingers barely exist anymore because they're all being converted into wing backs at early ages. Most wide players tend to be converted attacking midfielders and strikers.

The proper flying wingers of the world have all started playing on inverted sides now. Robben was a left winger at Chelsea and yet now he plays on the right so he can cut in and shoot. Bale and Ronaldo have done the same at Madrid. Football is ever changing. Wide players now tend to either cut inside off the flanks or just play narrow to begin with. I think the main reason for this is that full backs are slowly becoming wing backs (probably because none of them can defend, so the best way to protect your wide areas is to pin the opposition wide players back) . All the top teams except Atletico Madrid have very attacking left and rights backs. To make room for their marauding runs though you need your wide attackers to get out the way. By cutting in or coming narrow they pull the opposition defence in tight and leave acres of space for the modern day full backs to bomb in to. They also then get themselves in to better goalscoring positions hence why modern wide players score much more goals than wide players of the older days. Combine Bale and Ryan Giggs for example; Giggs created way more goals by staying wide and crossing dangerous balls into the area. But he can't touch Bales goalscoring record. Our lack of width has nothing to do with Coutinho and Lallana coming inside. That is tactical to allow overlapping runs. The lack of width is because Clyne and Moreno can't cross!

Yes, Klopp has us looking at wide players. Rafa Silva who cuts in off the left. Praet who is a converted attacking midfielder. Nkoudou who also cuts inside. Gotze who plays really narrow. Volland who cuts in off the right and is a converted striker.

My point is that none of the wide players we are looking at are going to go past the full back on the outside and curl in a blinding cross. If we need to mix it up and play that way then Ojo and Canos can do so. But it is not Klopps preferred style. There is no doubt he is looking to improve on Lallana and Ibe. Our senior options out wide aren't as good as they could be. Aside from Coutinho we don't really have any top class wide forwards. Lallana tries hard but he is ultimately just a good player and nothing special. Ibe seems to have lost his spark and needs to rediscover that away from all the pressure of being "the next Sterling".

If you want more quality out wide then sure, I agree. But Coutinho will be our first choice left forward and he is not going to magically start playing like Giggs! I would love to know though, do you consider Neymar or Suarez to be wingers? Because they are doing the exact same roles as Coutinho and Lallana. They just do it better and have Alba and Alves overlapping so the team still carries a wide threat.

That's why I'm not getting sucked into an argument with you Smithy. I'll happily have a discussion though because I think you are ultimately correct and that we're arguing terminology. What you are saying is not something I can disagree with. You are right. Lallana needs upgrading if possible. My argument is not with people like you who just want a better player on the right who can actually beat a man, score more goals and create more chances. My argument is with people who think we need forwards who will hit the byline and cross it in all game. Klopp is very clearly asking Clyne and Moreno to do that. If he wasn't then he'd have dropped them by now because they are both playing like what used to be considered a winger which leads to them getting caught high up when opposition teams break on us. They hug the touchline and always look to run into space out wide to deliver a cross. In fact they make more runs in behind the opposition backline than any other player in the team. Players like Ojo and Canos will be excellent plan B's next year. They may even be moulded into future first team players eventually. But Lallana if replaced, will almost definitely be replaced by a wide forward who comes in narrow. Praet, Gotze, Volland or Silva will all do just that to allow Clyne room to overlap.

So yes. Klopp is looking at wide players. But wingers? If you just consider any player in an advanced wide role as a winger then yes. But my idea of a winger is different and they barely exist anymore. That seems to be what some people want. The same argument for needing new wide players is always used. "We lack width. None of our players can cross a ball". Congratulations. You are all correct. But this is not because of Couts or Lallana. It is because of Clyne and Moreno being ineffective at what Klopp is asking of them. That is why I am saying we don't need wingers.

We need a keeper, a centre back, a left back, a right back, and a player with more quality than Lallana if the budget will stretch that far. For some reason beyond my understanding, Klopp seems to rate Clyne. But our lack of threat out wide has nothing to do with Coutinho and Lallana. People are grilling them for not doing something that they are not even in the team to do. They should both be scoring more goals considering they are playing so narrow but that is a different argument altogether. And I won't sit and let Coutinho and Lallana take the heat that Clyne and Moreno should be enduring.

The other alternative for Klopp is to tell Clyne to stop playing as a wing back, and sign somebody who can cross it to play as an actual right winger. But we've not looked at anyone like that according to the Eds. There's not really any wingers about nowadays who are actually good at it. Albrighton is the only good one I can think of in the Prem. And even he is played as an inverted winger. Except instead of cutting inside, he just cuts back onto his right foot and then whips in a cross. Hence why he doesn't score any goals. I believe he has one league goal, but around 10 assists. Navas is a traditional winger which is why he also scores so few goals. It's quite simply impossible to score regularly from the touchline! The problem with Navas his he's not even that good at crossing though.

Everybody seems to still be thinking Rodgers is in charge and we will play a 4-3-3. Klopps system is a 4-2-3-1 but the 3 is very unorthodox. The central player of the 3 tends to play as a second striker (Firmino) and the wide players play very narrow (Counts and Lallana) so they can get more shots away. So people need to relinquish this fantasy that we will have be looking for wingers and a third midfielder (or deep lying playmaker as some unnamed posters call it) to sit in between the centre backs and make them split. Those days are gone (thank god) . There will be no more reverting to 4-3-3 at the start of every season. Count your lucky stars that that is the case.

14 May 2016 18:22:54
Benteke got into the 18 yard box quicker than it took me to read your post MK Scouser. Fair play fella for your dedication must have taken awhile for you to write that.

14 May 2016 18:34:37
I didn't realise it was that long haha. Saturdays are boring when the football isn't on. Normally I'd be streaming a game or two right now, but the myp2p links are all boring right now. I'm going to have a breakdown when the summer transfer window opens. God I hope the Euros are entertaining!

14 May 2016 19:03:06
Keep tapping away MK, that's what the sites for. I will miss the footie too mate, but I expect us to be very busy in the transfer market this summer, especially if we qualify for the Champions League, by winning on Wednesday. So I look forward to reading your comments on what business we do.

14 May 2016 19:23:33
If you agree with me, what's the need for the essay? lol. we need better wide players and the club is looking for them. end of discussion.

14 May 2016 19:59:30
Lallana is quality, he will not be sold, he is showing signs of epitomising Klopps ways- see, an opinion in 16 words. Simples.

14 May 2016 20:07:25
MK Scouser: I just read your mini essay and see why you wrote it. i hear what you're saying.

14 May 2016 20:47:17
Yeah the essay wasn't to argue with you buddy. More an explanation of what my argument is with others. I haven't seen one post from you I haven't agreed with. Hence why I got the feeling the only difference in our opinions was the definition of the word 'winger' lol. Glad you did read it though. It wasn't meant to be that long. I guess I get carried away when I'm bored!

14 May 2016 18:53:04
Adam

So what should we do when a team sit back and make 10 men wall? Our full backs CANNOT CROSS is the first real issue. If you cannot penetrate through the middle you need stretch out wide and whip in or cut inside.
We simply don't do that.

I agree with your points on different types of wingers.

14 May 2016 23:49:00
MK this kind of confusion happens in these posts. The same thing happens when you mention CDM, you can guarantee that deep lying playmaker will be then mentioned even though they are completely different roles. I actually agree with you on this. We do need some natural width just not old fashioned wingers, we don't play with a target man. We need some one who will go wide to stretch the play but who has pace and is intelligent enough to know when to pass simple or cut in or run further on and cut back to a late run etc.

15 May 2016 04:51:45
Agree with majority of the explanations about wingers but u seem to forget that while the system you mentioned might be the best formation at our disposal based on the players we have it does not mean klopp would not play with a traditional winger if he was in the squad and the situation required someone to run beyond the opposition defence.

Truth be told no one on this site has a foggyest who klopp wants to bring in and how he really wants to set up the team. So while its fun to debate, to categorically state klopp is only after x or y is nugatory until it actually happens.

14 May 2016 15:03:34
Right with coutinho sweeping up at the awards, what would your player of the season, performance of the season and goal of the season be, if coutinho wasn't involved?
Player: firmino, for a first season, a great second half of the year.
Performance: maybe can agaisnt Sevilla
Goal: bentekes agaisnt United was special but not that important, firmino agaisnt Arsenal was a great strike too.

14 May 2016 16:23:39
Wholeheartedly concur with the above especially SuperMan's performance against Sevilla. In fact let's coin a phrase and call him superman from now on! Superman Can. I think it has a ring to it.

14 May 2016 16:45:08
Have I missed the Europa league final or something?

Anyway, player of the season for me is Toure. Think he's been brilliant and has gone from being a certainty to leave to everyone praying he gets a new contract.

Performance of the season Is probably Can against VILLAREAL. Supreme performance. Best I've seen from an LFC midfielder since Alonso was here.

Goal of the season is Origi vs Dortmund in the game at Anfield. Not for the finish, but for the excellent build up play (one touch passing) .

14 May 2016 18:26:51
Didn't you know i have a time machine MK Scouser and I can reliably inform you that we win the cup against Villareal and superman put in a season best performance.

14 May 2016 18:30:06
Brenda's dentist, why not SuperCan?

15 May 2016 04:58:12
Sounds like one of those super strength lagers.

14 May 2016 12:49:04
Sorry Eds if it's been mentioned but as us fellow reds enjoy your podcasts will you be doing an end of season one, expectations for next season and maybe touching on the approaching Euros, I know I'm being greedy asking for so much to be discussed, but, I've always been told, if you don't ask you don't get.

{Ed001's Note - hopefully we will find a chance to do one soon.}

14 May 2016 00:42:42
Ed2 any update on our interest in Sule? Dortmund boind too replace Hummels?

{Ed002's Note - Sule is certainly one of the centre backs Dortmund are interested in.}

14 May 2016 08:49:44
Ed001,

With us being linked with Gotze I was wondering what you think of him as a player?

{Ed001's Note - I keep getting asked about him and I have never really seen much of him. He has always been injured when I have watched his team play. That does worry me, to be honest. It suggests he might be fragile.}

14 May 2016 09:06:01
Thanks for the reply ed.

{Ed001's Note - sorry I can't help much more.}

14 May 2016 02:51:59
Ed please can you explain the situation with Rossiter. He was apparently the next big thing before the hamstring injury, played in the U21's at 15 and very highly thought of throughout. Is the player pushing for a move or have Liverpool just decided he's not up to it?

{Ed001's Note - he was struggling due to the injuries and found himself behind Stewart and Chirivella in the pecking order. The progress expected from him was just not happening, so it is best for all parties he goes somewhere that he can play regularly and rebuild himself.}

14 May 2016 13:51:12
I think Rossiter was held back by his lack of physical development as well. I think that's the same thing that may hold Chirivella back. The first thing I'd have Pedro doing is bulking up in the gym like how Sterling did in his second season. Or he'll just continue to get knocked around like he did against Swansea.

That's why I fancy Stewart and Brannagan to make it ahead of Rossiter and Chirivella. Although physical presence isn't everything, you've got to be in Xavi or Pirlo's league to make it at the top when you have no outstanding physical attribute. When Stewart or Brannagan go in for a challenge, it's full blooded and tough. Chirivella and Rossiter just bounce off people and until they are tougher, men's football will be too much for them as defensive midfielders.

It's the same reason why Allen has failed to stamp down a position in our midfield. Klopp has actually pushed him forward into a more advanced role because he cannot dominate a midfield.

Very few midfielders as short, slow and weak as Pedro and Rossiter make it in English football though. The only ones I can think of are Leon Britton and Cesc Fabregas of the current crop. The young lads will lose out on every 50/ 50 so they need to either bulk up or become more intelligent in terms of their positional play.

It's a shame because they're very technically gifted and they spot danger well. They just lack the presence to deal with that danger.

13 May 2016 23:23:38
The debate of having a natural defensive midfielder is really bordering on ridiculous.

Neither Can or Hendrrson are defensive midfielders, they do not need to be. Our midfield is better with these two in it then without.

It is the same with natural wingers. The days of players hugging the touchline is long gone.

We require players who understand Klopp's system. That system does not require specialist players.

14 May 2016 00:08:31
RIyad Mahrez likes a touchline and from what I've heard been pretty successful.

14 May 2016 00:24:41
Hallelujah! Agree, agree, a thousand times agree.

14 May 2016 00:37:43
Whoever plays there, for long time now, opposition players have been getting to our box way too often and way too easily. something has to change there. The defenders and keeper should deal with the opposition every once in a while, not 10 seconds after every time the opposition get the ball in their own half.

14 May 2016 00:08:31
RIyad Mahrez likes a touchline and from what I've heard been pretty successful.

14 May 2016 00:24:41
Hallelujah! Agree, agree, a thousand times agree.

14 May 2016 00:37:43
Whoever plays there, for long time now, opposition players have been getting to our box way too often and way too easily. something has to change there. The defenders and keeper should deal with the opposition every once in a while, not 10 seconds after every time the opposition get the ball in their own half.

14 May 2016 00:08:31
RIyad Mahrez likes a touchline and from what I've heard been pretty successful.

14 May 2016 00:24:41
Hallelujah! Agree, agree, a thousand times agree.

14 May 2016 00:37:43
Whoever plays there, for long time now, opposition players have been getting to our box way too often and way too easily. something has to change there. The defenders and keeper should deal with the opposition every once in a while, not 10 seconds after every time the opposition get the ball in their own half.

14 May 2016 01:08:18
Agree with fano but I think it's a lack of quality in our midfield. Our midfield is far too easily penetrated and hardly ever scores.

I don't think the combination of Hendo and Can has enough quality. Controversial but that's what has been very apparent to me this season.

14 May 2016 02:27:56
Agree with fano and Ron that midfield pairing might be dominant in two or three seasons but currently it lacks defensively qualities. We are always suspect at the back and without sufficient cover from the midfield we will just continue leaking goals. We are always caught on the counter especially on the side Moreno plays, and that's from open play. To keep getting caught from open play means that our midfielders aren't tactically where they should be to stop it. I'm not saying we should have a full out defensive midfielder that does nothing but defend almost like Lucas, we need a defensive midfielder that contributes all round. As it is we don't have that. We have box to box players that have some quality going forward and play the high pressing game very well. We need a midfielder with a brain, who reads the game better than the others. That person should partner Henderson or can.

14 May 2016 02:46:09
Brendans Dentist, have you seen Mahrez play before?

14 May 2016 05:17:54
No stoupid I'm a dentist and always working don't get time to watch a premiership winning winger who holds his position on the right wing so his team are not compact which gives them options. I know you are going to say he cuts in a lot but the point is he cuts in from an initial touchline hugging position. The need for a winger or decent wing backs who can actually attack paramount. So much of thrust is blunted by the charlies at left and right wing back. Clyne is the biggest culprit for me. I'm
Not jumping on the clyne hate bandwagon but the guy is astonishingly bad going forward. How many assists has he got? Anyway i'm tired need to go to bed.

14 May 2016 08:03:29
Think people are getting confused by what people call wingers/ wide players. because, when i say "wide players" i'm not talking about someone who stands on the wing whipping in crosses (do players even still do that? ) . robben, ribery, costa, coman, hazard, sanchez, mahrez, bale, ronaldo ect are all wide players - do they just stand out wide there whipping in crosses? NO. Pace, penetration, trickery, goal and assists is what most people want from wide players. not slow number 10 types doing a job out wide.

14 May 2016 09:38:03
I don't think it's to do with quality but personnel. hendo and can together guarantees a lot of energy but not a lot of positional sense. they will track back and recover situations and in others they will have too much ground to make up. it's big risk for big reward kind of thing and is what it is when these are the players we have. blame the recruiting before klopp came in for building a midfield consisting of players who essentially all do the same thing.

14 May 2016 12:51:03
For me Henderson and Can are too similar. Both get around the pitch a hell of a lot, both have a reasonable range of passing, neither is defensively great and neither will score goals. A scoring midfielder should be chipping in 10-15 goals a season - I don't believe those 2 combined will do that. If they're both playing it drives needs across rest of team. Firstly we need all the attacking players (including attacking midfielders) to be hitting double figures for goals each season. Secondly we might need to sacrifice one of those attackers to play a defensive midfielder who can hold while Can and Henderson get around the place. Or we don't play them together.

14 May 2016 14:29:08
London Irish red can you name me one central midfielder who scores 15 goals a season? The only player ever to do that in England is Yaya Toure and he scored mainly penalties and free kicks. Plus he did it once in like 4 or 5 seasons.

Before anyone says Gerrard or Lampard, neither of them scored double figures from midfield. They both did that from attacking midfield and even then they relied heavily on Penalties and free kicks to boost their tally. Gerrard's highest tally as an actual midfielder was 9.

So good luck finding one. I'm not even sure there is one in world football right now. Possibly Vidal and Rakitic. There is certainly not one in the premier league.

Kante, Inler, King and Drinkwater have 4 combined.

Dembele, Carroll, Mason and Dier have 7 combined.

Ramsey, Flamini, Elneny and Coquelin have 5 combined.

Yaya, Fernando, Fernandinho and Delph have 12 combined.

Schweinsteiger, Herrera, Carrick and Schneirlin have 5 combined.

Henderson, Can, Allen and Milner have 10 combined.

Noble, Song and Kouyate have 12 combined.

In fact you'll be shocked to know that Noble ranks highest with 7. Yaya ranks second with 6 and Milner is just behind with 5. They all take penalties. Kouyate and Ramsey have 5 also which makes them the most proficient non-penalty goalscoring midfielders in the league. Although both players are allowed a lot of freedom to attack as Flamini/ Coquelin and Song sit back.

So if you could point out which Premier league midfield is significantly outscoring ours, please go ahead! Henderson has 2 and he's been injured for most of the season so you can quite confidently say he would've matched Kouyate and Ramsey had he not missed half the season with injury and spent the other half playing through his heel injury pain.

If you want to get into attackers and wide players then Firmino, Lallana, Coutinho and Ibe still hold their own against every side in the division with around 25 goals scored between them. Where our goals scored falls down is in the striker department with not one of our forwards scoring more than 10 league goals. Meanwhile Kane, Vardy and Aguero are all on around 25. Not coincidentally they all play for teams in the top 4. Lukaku and Giroud both have around 15 goals but Giroud has more assists than any other striker except I think Deeney and Vardy. Lukaku scores once in every 10 shots so I'll pass there.

That is largely down to Sturridge, Ings and Origi all missing large periods through injury and Benteke being useless under Brendan and average under Klopp.

If you want to blame anything for our league position, blame the goals conceded column. And stop inventing sticks to beat our midfielders with.

14 May 2016 15:07:02
Ibe has been terrible and coutinho lallana and firmino's lack of pace and penetration in the wide areas has been evident many time this season (especially when teams sit back) - hence, why where in the market for wide players. not much to argue about. klopp see it as a problem and is trying to fix it.

14 May 2016 15:09:03
MK, Ramsey spent most of season either ahead of two sitting midfielders or right side of a three. Milner has spent a lot of time wide too. If you say Gerard and lampard don't count, then you can't count Herrera, Ramsey, yaya, or Milner.

14 May 2016 11:13:53
Surely a "lack of quality" and "wrong personnel" go hand in hand?