Liverpool Banter 2

12 Oct 2026 10:58:10
Dear readers
Would also like ed001 response on this one.
Wirtz out, he"s not worth the money, money wasted and so on .
First af all, he ain't worth that much money and neither are Anderson, Fernandez, Barcola or Isak, but the market just went insane when Chelsea bought Fernandez and Caicedo, and the price for clubs like Liverpool, Chelsea, City, Man United and Tottenham is always larger than other teams, I think if was Ed001 who explained that.
I know Wirtz lost the ball a couple of times, he had to pull his leg a bit in the Anderson tackle, else it would have been a leg broken tackle and the season over. It was as rash a tackle as the ones in the Tottenham-United game. He could have played Kerkez when he chose to shoot, on the other hand it could have been a goal.
A lot here doesn't seem to understand Wirtz role in the game. He is tha main man, rightly so, therefore he will often be in possession and often in dangerous areas. He could all the time, as he was asked for by Slot last season, to play it safe. Iraola on the other hand wants players like Wirtz to gamble, take chances and turn the play around and get on the front foot, playing attacking football. And so, sometimes the opponent tackles him or gets the ball, so be it.

But would you rather have him always playing it backwards? - that was the first question.
What he also does brilliantly is finding space in the middle of the park, but doesn't always gets the ball, but draws an opponent at him, leaving space for the others. Macca was often free last night because of Wirtz.
He even took the right run last time out, leaving Isak with a free goal. Koumas almost found him last night but the ball got tackled for a corner. I think Wirtz deserves a lot of credit and it will be even more obvious as soon as the team learns how to play s lot faster like Iraola wants them to. Its so refreshing seeing the team play the ball goalwards instead of the boring sideways passing last season.
And if Koumas was as cool in front of goal as Isak, we might have won the game last night.
Yes we lost, but that was down to a blatantly referee, and not because of Wirtz og Iraolas tactics. Thank god Iraola is our coach and not Carragher, Neville or some of the Wtirz bashers here.
And taking out Szoboslai, Isak and Gakpo, would have been the same taking out Haaland, Anderson and Semenyo from the City team. I think the team did good last night and almost got it over the line, just to bad a Manchester referee wanted it otherwise.

{Ed001's Note - Wirtz wasn't particularly good, but he wasn't as bad as people are making out either. He still needs movement around him and there is little of that. I think the biggest question mark has to be over Barcola, every time I see him play he is terrible. I do not see what he brings. People complaining about Wirtz avoiding that clash with Anderson seem to have overlooked Barcola pulling out of any chance of a genuine challenge. He has no balls at all. Seems like a lovely lad, but he is not a Premier League footballer, he is too soft.

My biggest worry with Wirtz is that he is getting worse, his confidence is clearly gone and he is not relaxing and playing. You can see he is too tense in his poor touch, which is not something he suffered from before. He knows it is not working and you can see his hope of it turning around fading every time he gets the ball and sees nothing in front of him to work with.}

12 Oct 2026 15:09:35
We shouldn't have paid what we did on these 100 million plus players. I went on and on and on about barcola in the summer. But he's here now so you can't play the same tune. He has to be given his chance.

On wirtz, far too many excuses now. Look at his overall attributes. What are we getting from him?
He's not pacy, he's not physical, has no aerial ability and certainly doesn't have the athletisism or running power to do harm or cover centrally. You're playing an extremely privileged player in a physical league who's not giving you really anything attacking wise. And it's true. He never looks like scoring. His strike is weak and poor.
Unless his feet turn into Iniestas, he's been an appalling buy.

12 Oct 2026 14:57:48
Agreed ed.

I was skeptical of barcola before we were ever interested. I've never seen anything other than a guy who runs fast, which sadly seduces a lot of people.

He was also in a position we didn't actually need. Hopefully be proven wrong but speed malerchants only work in teams playing on the break all the time. Without the space to sprint into they're pretty useless.

Wirtz needs some time out I think, he needs to forget the pressure as much as everyone else does.

12 Oct 2026 15:01:12
Red-JC, regards to Wirtz, I 100% agree with Carragher and Neville. What I want from Wirtz, at this moment in time, is for him to not be in the side. And I agree with Ed01 regards to Barcola, though I'm more inclined to give him another month or so before I start slagging him off. Wirtz, however, has been here long enough to warrant criticism.

If you think that's harsh, Red-JC, I suggest you get used to it, because unless he shows a marked improvement the criticism will keep coming his way.

12 Oct 2026 15:01:18
Would you take him out of the firing line for a couple of games, Ed001? Or do you think that will knock his confidence even more?

Also, a bit more of a loaded question, if a team offered roughly what we paid for him (around £100m) in the summer, would you take it?

{Ed001's Note - if we had options to replace him, ie Szobo is fit, then yes, I would drop him because he is not so reliant on having the team work around him to get the best out of him. He doesn't need runners to pick out, he can just smash it from range to, so immediately the defence drops off when he gets it anyway, as they need to prepare to be in position to pick up rebounds etc. Until we have some movement up front, I just don't see the point in playing him. If Isak and Gakpo are fit, when I would be torn.

The three of them work together well to move the opposition around and create space and both Isak and Gakpo are capable of the early run. If Barcola and Ngumoha are in the team, I just think Wirtz doesn't fit, as neither of those ever look to run in behind or run onto a ball and attack the defence. They always want to face up their attacker. Barcola even slowed to allow the defender to catch him yesterday! He had bloody acres of space to sprint into and instead he slows right down and waits. I don't know how Iraola restrained himself from running onto the pitch and throttling him at that moment!

Thinking about it, I think I would look to take Wirtz out and use him against tired legs to rebuild his confidence. To be honest, I don't think any of the 3 100m men are working out for us, none of them suit the squad we have and the money could have been better spent on building a cohesive team. If we could get our money back on any of them, I would take it right now. It feels like Iraola has a bunch of square pegs and he is trying to sand them down to work as a team. It would make far more sense to get rid and bring in the round pegs instead.}

12 Oct 2026 15:21:43
I'm wondering what's going on with Bradley, is it a lack of fitness? He is one of the fastest and most direct players in world football, but he looks so tentative and unsure of himself right now.

He had a very bright first appearance off the bench and has just faded badly. To his credit though, he did work very hard off the ball yesterday and got stuck in tackling in our half yesterday.

12 Oct 2026 15:55:28
When you say "Bradley" you mean Barcola. You had me going for a minute there, PB.

From my perspective, PB, Barcola is a few games away from me calling him the 2nd biggest waste of money after Wirtz. I will hang fire till then though.

12 Oct 2026 16:09:06
While yesterday was no fun, I am not going to go in on these players. The squad building (more like dismantling) by Hughes and Edwards has left us with a group of players that don't fit any particular system, leaving the coach to find a recipe that will work.

We definitely look fitter and more direct. Players are putting in the effort. Those are already better than we saw last season.

For now, we just have to keep working hard and see where we are when the window opens in January. I would hope that Ward and Iraola are on the same page in terms of what we need.

I would hope the owners, current or new, will also see the City cloud as an opportunity for us to really get behind Iraola and rebalance the squad at the earliest opportunity.

12 Oct 2026 15:28:42
Barcola does make those runs in behind all the time, though, ed, he did all the time at PSG. Makes you wonder what's happening with him right now.

{Ed001's Note - I can only say what I have seen and I have never seen him do it, but I only saw a little of him at PSG.}

12 Oct 2026 16:46:22
There were times yesterday where Barcola had his fullback isolated with space to run into and seemed afraid of his life. And he was facing a converted midfielder. Boiled my blood. Just hit it by him and get yourself after it.

12 Oct 2026 16:42:47
Thanks Ed001, really appreciate the time on your reply.

I would also take the money back, maybe not yet on Barcola, but on Isak and Wirtz, and give Iraola exactly what he wants.

{Ed001's Note - the recruitment under Edwards and Hughes has been a huge mess. It shows the difference between just buying good players and buying good players to fit the system.}

12 Oct 2026 17:26:09
I'll be the first to put my hand up and say I don't really listen to Carragher but he said something yesterday and i thought he was not far off. Both Munoz and Koumas are better signings than Barcola and wirtz at the min.

12 Oct 2026 19:44:54
I am sure we can all admit we want more from Wirtz, he's probably the signing I have been most excited about since supporting us and hasn't set us alight, yet.

But the coverage of him is nothing short of woeful. He took a shot yesterday and Nev bangs on about how he should pass to Kerkez, and another example is when he crossed it, Mac got on the end of it and missed. And they said it was Mac that made something from a bad ball. Football is a very easy game with hindsight.

The lad can't win, he was bought in for a huge fee and they expect everything to come off because of the position he plays in. He is massively under the microscope and I hope he can put a couple of worldy games together to shut everyone up.

He is also part of a squad that doesn't know what it is trying to accomplish. Is it a 4-3-3 is it a 4-2-3-1 it's massively out balanced and he is the scapegoat.

I actually think he'd suit a Bobby role quite well, problem is there is another £100m player we are needing to shoe horn in. So isn't really an option.

12 Oct 2026 20:32:59
WYRed, it's going to take more than a couple of "worldy games" to shut everyone up. Don't you think he owes us a damn sight more than that?

12 Oct 2026 14:09:36
Today I'm just sad because I can't stop thinking that a team has been allowed to destroy 15 years of the Premier League. How is anybody supposed to take it seriously from now on. The damage that has been done is just unbelievable.
It doesn't get any better when PGMOL just continue to build up conspiracy, how can anyone there still have a job.

The Premier League will forever be shadowed, and I fear that it will cost.

12 Oct 2026 16:09:51
PGMOL are so bad they re-branded themselves as Pro Ref, thinking we wouldn't notice.

12 Oct 2026 13:30:32
Who's this clown Ed25, is he a troll or something?

{Ed025's Note - im an Editor who has been on here for about 18 years IR, i dont do a lot of banning but in your case i will make an exception..goodbye..

12 Oct 2026 14:16:12
Ed25 👏👏.

12 Oct 2026 14:25:50
Nice work Ed025 mate.

12 Oct 2026 14:28:42
You the man Ed025 😉.

12 Oct 2026 14:34:27
Well said and well done Ed025!!

12 Oct 2026 14:48:45
More like Is Wrong.

{Ed025's Note - thanks all for the support..

12 Oct 2026 15:02:17
Back of the net, as Alan Partridge would say.

12 Oct 2026 14:59:54
I'd take that as a compliment on these pages.

The best edd ever was a Rodeo Clown.

{Ed025's Note - i cant argue with that LFC8..

12 Oct 2026 15:32:38
Unbelievable. Well done the 25.

12 Oct 2026 16:51:52
In off the red..

12 Oct 2026 12:43:50
What did Araujo get a yellow for yesterday.

12 Oct 2026 12:52:53
Asking for a yellow card.

12 Oct 2026 12:58:11
It was pretty dumb of him and hopefully he will have learned his lesson. It certainly impacted his defending against the left wingers after that.

Ironically, Haaland and Enzo got nothing for doing the same later on.

12 Oct 2026 13:19:58
Stupidity from him. But once he got one all should have got one.

12 Oct 2026 13:39:34
Apparently not, if you're a ref from Manchester reffing a Liverpool game (one of the fiercest rivalries in global football - whichever one of the two).

This is all just rot that has set in thanks to management of the PL. They allow refs to officiate abroad in countries where the state has ownership in teams back home. And then they scream "hey mate, you can't accept 20, 000 as a gift". Why was officiating there allowed in the first place?

The concept of "conflict of interest" seems to be an alien thing to them.

12 Oct 2026 10:55:04
Until Wirtz is consistently out of the team, there will be little improvement, especially in terms of how open our midfield is. He just offers nothing, he's not even a threat on the counter, so teams are just leaving him to meander and he's still not producing anything. I think someone like Scott, just a boring workmanlike couple of midfielders is what we need to give us a backbone. We were ok yesterday in terms of not really looking like we were riding out luck, and maybe the offensive side would have been better with Gakpo/Isak.

I said he would end up a cups player before moving on, and the only reason it's not already happened is because of the massive lack of competition in the position.

12 Oct 2026 11:45:30
Macca was sh*t too. Yes wirtz is not great but macca was poor and the play was also slow in general build up play. Grav broke the lines and helped open everything up for us. Everyonekse was slow and placid.

12 Oct 2026 11:49:17
Bob, I would put exactly the same sentiment anther way. Successful Liverpool teams have never played with a "10", I saw Hunt and St. Johns partnership develop and I saw ( slightly ) withdrawn forwards like Dalglish and Beardsley, but not a "10".

The title was won in 2020 and 2025 with three genuine midfielders, I have been surprised how little comment there has been about this on these pages but people have such short memories.

12 Oct 2026 13:17:05
I still don't see how this Squad fits into a 4/3/3

It has no natural right sided player for a start, fullbacks are wingbacks at best, or centre backs, and we've no DM

I'd even argue we have 3/4 number 10's and no natural midfielders. Our Squads a mess.

12 Oct 2026 14:09:35
We had Szoboszlai who was very effective in the 10 role, he might not have great dribbling or passing but his pace combined with his work rate and shooting that brings much more to the team than Wirtz currently does.

12 Oct 2026 14:54:16
Szoboszlai is great pressing from the 10, but effectively Salah was our 10 that year playing in the right half space, in the final third Szoboszlai was effectively playing like Hendo forming triangles with Trent going on the outside and Mo inverting into the central areas.

Without Mo in the side I'm not sure playing Dom there makes too much sense, though his pressing from the front is probably one of his biggest assets as a player.

12 Oct 2026 15:10:32
Our squad lends itself to a 3-5-2-1

AB
VVD-JJ-RA
MK-AMc-RG-TN-JF
FW-DS
AI.

12 Oct 2026 16:50:08
I thought the big gripe with Salah that year was that Salah had him hugging the touchline? 🤔.

12 Oct 2026 17:01:56
Oui, that formation is 11 outfield players.

12 Oct 2026 17:14:44
Should have a good chance so Lofty😂.

12 Oct 2026 10:47:15
After the game yesterday, all I thought about was Jürgen. he had to deal with the 114, and also VAR and corrupt referee's while trying to keep his trap shut.

12 Oct 2026 11:43:11
After the game yesterday I just thought we are way off winning the league again.

12 Oct 2026 11:50:38
Top 4 should be the aim Rome. We don't have the squad to win it, but that doesn't mean we can't make good progress under Iraola this season.

As long as we show consistent improvement this season, hopefully we can remedy the squad in the windows.

12 Oct 2026 11:56:45
After the game last night, I told myself that I shouldn't have waited to have my dinner until after the game. I completely lost my appetite.

12 Oct 2026 12:01:13
Agree with you there, Taurus. It's all about how we recruit in the next couple of windows, plus if Iraola can get a tune out of our 3, hundred million pound signings. He's in full control of the latter.

12 Oct 2026 13:10:34
Agree Rome. At Bournemouth, it would take him half a season to get them really going after wholesale changes each year. I do think we will be stronger in the 2nd half of the season.

12 Oct 2026 10:42:28
I actually think 2 of our biggest issues are in fullback positions tbh, being at the game yesterday Kerkez was grand with Ndiaye but always on edge and his passing was horrific, when Semenyo was moved to his side he was turned inside out.

Araujo did well but he isn't a right back and the less said about Frimpong the better, that's where their goals came from too, doku turned us inside out when he came on.

12 Oct 2026 11:06:28
When accomplished attackers go one on one, they very often come out on top, it's how the defence is supported by doubling up etc that nullifies their effect. We can't just point the finger at the full backs, it's a team responsibility to react, but when you've already lost one player, makes it so much harder.

12 Oct 2026 07:39:01
{Ed's Note - MCR has posted a new article entitled, Effort Has to Be Liverpool's Bare Minimum

12 Oct 2026 07:55:58
I stopped reading when you said bring Endo back in. I thought, given the players available, the starting XI was the right one. We weren't out-fought. Up till the sending off I thought we were probably the better side.

I do agree about Wirtz needing to be dropped, but I've been banging on about that forever. Even the excuse makers are starting to run out of excuses for him. I hope I'm not saying the same about Barcola in a few months time, because I thought he was lousy, yesterday.

12 Oct 2026 08:37:29
Let's be honest, The whole season collapsed in the Summer transfer window.

It was a terrible window for Liverpool.

Crawling to January again because we can't fix obvious problems in the squad even after a full season of watching it.

12 Oct 2026 09:00:11
It is concerning that our best signing has been a loan, make shift right back, considering the eye watering money we've thrown around the last few years. It reminds of the saying about broken clocks and all that.

12 Oct 2026 09:08:17
We are not like City, cheslea, Arsenal and other 16 clubs who can spend money like water lol. FSG don't work that way. if you think January would fix our problems then god help us. There is a clear rason why they went in for a coah and not a manager.

12 Oct 2026 09:21:43
What Rome said. I also thought Araujo struggled badly yesterday albeit up against good wingers.

12 Oct 2026 09:35:56
Personally don't care about Wirtz pulling out of 50/50s. He's a luxury player. The other midfielders are the ones who need more bite. My issue with Wirtz is that he's our 10 and supposed game changer and he is too scared to beat a man or make any more than a 5 yard pass.

When he does try to do either he invariably loses the ball. His strength in the tackle is not his problem. He is not good enough at the things we bought him to be good at.

12 Oct 2026 09:50:54
Araujo simply couldn't cope with Doku. To be fair, Doku has given our previous RBs problems as well. I think we all agree that we need two new quality FBs in the next couple of windows.

Slot had to go, but I think we can all see that last season wasn't all down to him, which I kept saying over and over.

12 Oct 2026 10:17:49
To be fair, O'Reilly struggled with Munoz also and Araujo won't be the only person who struggled against Doku this season.
I thought it was going to take something special to separate these sides, shame it had to come from the ref.
Nearly mid Oct and this is the first loss, I think we need some perspective here!

12 Oct 2026 10:34:15
Maybe we could try Szobozlai there Rome.

12 Oct 2026 10:48:05
I'm assuming that is meant in jest FM.

12 Oct 2026 11:41:22
As it stands, FM, he is our best RB. However, I think it's time to start Szoboszlai in the 10 position. He honestly cannot do any worse than the current one.

12 Oct 2026 12:06:20
I think people have forgotten how well Szoboszlai was doing in his first 6 months as a #10, under Klopp. And then he got injured and he started playing further back.

12 Oct 2026 12:09:55
Doku is one of the best one on one players in the world. It would take a historically great fullback to consistently lock him up. When facing a wide threat of Doku's quality, we need help on that side, we can't keep blaming the fullback when he gets dribbled past. Why do you think defenders used to double or triple up on Mo and Sadio back in the day?

I think we did decently well considering the circumstances before the game with injuries etc. Should have scored when we were well on top the first 20 minutes, but we just didn't have the quality up front to provide a real cutting edge, and messed up the final ball on too many occasions. Barcola was bitterly disappointing, when he had space to attack in front and could isolate Nunes often he just passed up the opportunity, that is supposed to be his bread and butter. Wirtz was bad, yes, but he also could have had at least one assist in the game. The build up at times in the first half looked very good, confident and calculated, and the press against a team of City's technical quality was very decent.

12 Oct 2026 12:14:07
Fair to mention Aurajo had been playing sixty mins and was on a yellow by the time Doku came o.

12 Oct 2026 12:24:24
ArAy1969 I think you're forgetting Dom was heavily criticised for not producing enough in the 10, and you're not noticing that he does his best work when he's arriving, making runs from slightly deeper, his numbers have gone up significantly since playing the 8.

12 Oct 2026 12:37:22
Rome you and a few others were right about the problems. They're fairly plain to see for most of the long standing fans, it's just that many on the forum look for the most simple solution which was sack the coach. Arne needed to go but the major problem is that many of the players we've bought aren't good enough to sustain a top end challenge.

We had a purple patch between 2016 and 2018 when we bought some great, really truly great players. They saw us through for just less than a decade and then inevitably declined.

Since then the majority of our transfer business has been average to poor. We occasionally get one right like Diaz or Szob, but for every one we got right we get two or three wrong. When that's against a backdrop of your great players coming to an end and your great coach leaving it leaves you in a difficult place in terms of being competitive.

The last few windows have been as bad as any I can remember as a Liverpool fan of forty years in terms of value delivered. The likes of Frimpong and Kerkez are just not the right quality, Mama and Chiesa are very poor, Wirtz is a nothing player, the list goes on.

I really hope Iraola succeeds but given the turmoil off the pitch in the last few years, and the lack of experience and quality on the pitch, I wonder whether we needed to go bigger in terms of a proven manager. Should it have been acknowledged that this was going to be a Jurgen size task to rebuild, rather than a more simple tactical and fitness tweak which is what many were saying after Arne left.

It's also just a shame our decade of great players coincided with a time when our main competition were alleged to be cooking the books otherwise we would have had more silverware.

12 Oct 2026 04:05:48
It's obvious referees are paid and Premier League is protecting its image by not opening and investigating that can of worms

Its pretty obvious man city are in officials pocket.
Yesterday was just another example. Without a verdict without a punishment we allow cheaters to cheat and play.
Whats the point of it all really now when you know they have cheated and sort of just give up. Pretty much what happened yesterday with us. That decision took the soul out of the team and we gave up as it was pointless to play against rabid cheaters

On other note I hope AI saw that Gravy performance and realises that it has to be macca and gravy in midfield.
In terms of timing getting the red would probs mean gravy has to again fight for his place.
If it weren't a red we probably might have won and gravy would have been the MoM.
All because we allow cheats to play and have plastic balls.

Also all these city players and managers are in on it. 100% in on it. Wont be surprised if entire teams have been on something because these lads never tire.

I am a sore loser 100% but i can't look past cheating and in my experience if you get away with A in life you also get away with B and C if huge sums of money is involved.

12 Oct 2026 05:57:01
I don't know if this is true, but my son has just told me he's seen that Chris Kavanagh s brother is a season ticket at Man Cheaty. if this is true he shouldn't be anywhere near a Cheaty game and might explain a lot.

12 Oct 2026 08:03:20
I've seen that rumour too but no idea how true it is. However, surely if there was anyone with a brain cell, you would select someone outside of Manchester for the game. It brings added scrutiny. Regarding his performance, it felt like he bought all city theatrics. But the red glasses were definitely on so maybe I am being biased in that point.

Yesterday is the first time in a long time a game has annoyed me. Not due to performance or losing but the fact we are playing a team that is effectively a dead man walking. We know they cheated, we know they are getting punished yet the can continue as normal whilst the rest of the league waits. It's an utter shambles and the league is tarnished until it's resolved. It'd be like a boxer entering a ring when he knows the opponent has brass knuckles.

I love football like many of us on here, but until the punishment is served it kind of renders the league pointless. They could confine a team to relegation, stop a team being in Europe or ultimately stop Arsenal winning the league. How is that fair on everyone else that played by the book all because a state run club can throw enough hurdles to prolong the process?

12 Oct 2026 09:27:31
Apparently City are not bribing the refs, it's just the UAE 'investing' in them.

12 Oct 2026 09:37:53
First yellow was soft but then if I recall one of their players got a soft one shortly after too. Second one was a yellow imo - both him and Aruajo tried to stop the break away so could have been booked.

12 Oct 2026 10:05:42
In the mid 80s (??? ), Roy of the Rovers had a section 'You are the ref', where it posed questions of, as a ref, what you would do when certain situations arose.
They could never have foreseen the way the game has gone.
Yes, the game has 'gone'.

12 Oct 2026 10:39:06
Lastfanofslot, Grav played well along with Macca because both knew exactly what their jobs were and executed it perfectly. Grav has had his best game not just this season, but in ages going back to last season so I give him his flowers, for sure.

That being said because he had his best game in a log time, does not suddenly mean it has to be him with Macca because we need more games from him to prove last night was not an outlier.

As for Wirtz, he did not do his case any favours at all. There were a couple of times where the ball was fired into him and it came of his ankles and lost the ball and even I was infuriated because that is a situation that has nothing to do with tactics or formation or runners or whatever.

As for the game itself, we fought hard and played our hearts out if you consider how short-handed we were. We upped the tempo in the second half and were giving it to them. Well up until what happened, happened. We take the positives and move on.

City are still Cheats and will remain so on the record books for the rest of their miserable existence.

12 Oct 2026 10:50:59
I think we've got 1 ref based in Merseyside.?? And he's never officiated a Liverpool or Everton game.

12 Oct 2026 11:59:40
Aye, Grav and Mac executed their jobs perfectly. We lost by three goals at home and one of them was sent off.

12 Oct 2026 12:35:33
Yes and Grav shouldn't have been sent off should he.

12 Oct 2026 15:01:00
Grav and Macca were very good for the most part, Macca was winning the ball back, played the ball through the lines very well especially in the first half (blemished slightly by him doing his customary falling and then trying to buy a foul once or twice in the game instead of getting up and running back on the counter), Grav was doing vintage Grav things, was a split second too slow passing in the final third like always but was incredible surging up the field from deep.

If he could combine those slalom runs with better quality passing in and around the box, he would be a god tier player, that lack of a passing game really hampers him.