Liverpool Banter Archive December 15 2017

15 Dec 2017 16:19:35
Don't know if Paul Merson is back on the sauce but he reckons we are the only team out of the big teams who would take Jack Wilshere is he having a laugh! Oh and he sees vhim as a replacement for Courtinho.

15 Dec 2017 16:45:09
He has a point, we are the only ones who stockpile midfielders.

15 Dec 2017 16:34:59
Sorry if this is harsh but I don’t see it with him. Not only is he massively injury prone I honestly don’t see this superstar level people keep assigning to him. Wouldn’t be within a mile of a genuine top class midfielder for me.

15 Dec 2017 18:43:22
Jack Wilshere would not make the stands at LFC.

15 Dec 2017 18:44:56
Ron, suddenly your answers and posts have been a bit snippy and harsh lately towards LFC, the players and Klopp. You are normally the eternal optimist on this site. What's your beef, man?

15 Dec 2017 18:45:56
The new joe Cole? Lol.

15 Dec 2017 21:56:46
Sorry lads, I'm massively disillusioned after the team changes for the derby and it will take me a while to get it off my chest.

15 Dec 2017 23:58:28
Ron, what if you had drawn with Coutinho and Firmino?

16 Dec 2017 02:46:28
Come on Ron, what happened that game was pretty annoying to say the least, even worse it was because it was vs Everton but, it's history, there's been worse games, got to get on with it mate and hope we learn from it.

16 Dec 2017 03:29:20
Oh boy, Paul Merson started his Christmas binge early this year.

16 Dec 2017 08:02:21
Setting myself up for a fall here but I think Ron would be fine with playing our best team and not winning. It's not the result that bothers him it's the not taking it seriously that he has a problem with.

16 Dec 2017 08:49:56
Putney, that is pure projection. We know Klopp did not take the game seriously. Cos he has feasted on them since he arrived here (3 wins on the bounce) Cou had a knock and Firmino was too tired and both were not fit to start. You may disagree with that BUT neither you nor I are the manager so we don't know the information Klopp and the fitness team and sports scientists had prior to the game, which determines who plays and for how long.

Had he played them and they got injured, you would be fuming and rightly so for Klopp starting them esp. since the rotation policy of late had yielded 13 points out of 15 and a CL KO ticket prior to that? We played Can and Wiji due to illness and injuries at CB at Brighton and won 5-1. Why change something that is working you would asked, right? Had Mane squared the ball or Salah, Lovren and Gomez taken their chances, people would not be complaining. Then, Klopp plays his best team vs WBA and we were actually closer to beating Everton with a "weaker" team than we did vs WBA with our best team. Wow, I thought footie was an exact science.

Frankly, people need to get over this whole "play your best team" vs Everton stuff as you cannot play your best team if some of them are not fit enough to give 100% in a derby. Klopp put a good team out there and why do we know that? They dominated, created chances and bar a fluke pen, they would have won, like they have been prior to the game. On to B'mouth.

16 Dec 2017 08:52:12
Klopp played the team everyone wanted against West Brom and it was even worse watching Can, Gini and Coutinho stroll around in midfield like they couldn't be bothered. At least Milner, Henderson and Chamberlain worked hard to make things happen against Everton. Football is 90% perspiration and 10% inspiration.

Anyway, that was a week ago now. There are worse things happen in life than drawing a derby game.

16 Dec 2017 09:48:52
Yea drawing agains't West Brom.

16 Dec 2017 10:34:01
BRover, the question was why Ron is upset and he has a legitimate reason. You're talking about a lot of what ifs and maybes. The only fact is that Klopp didn't play our strongest team in the Merseyside derby. You may be okay with Klopp doing that but Ron isn't.

My beef is that playing Solanke was a terrible choice for that game, Klopp played right into Allardyce's hands and it's a concern that Klopp showed such poor judgement.

16 Dec 2017 10:58:07
Putney, I am not referring to Ron's point as he has said that he is upset cos the game was one he and his mates look forward to hence, his disappointment and I can understand that. That is separate from what is actually going on with the team on the pitch, in training, analysis and preparation. What I mentioned regarding the injuries/ tiredness with Cou and Firmino are not what if's. They are facts as Klopp mentioned them. You may choose to ignore all of that cos it does not fit your narrative BUT they are still facts. The team he picked played well enough to win and that is all I care about. All the "best team" is just white noise, IMO.

Regarding Solanke, did Klopp play into the hands of Mark Hughes when he started Solanke and where Solanke had an assist and should have had another one and should have scored in a game we won 3-0? The kid had a good game so what is wrong with Klopp starting him vs Everton coming off the back of a decent showing vs Stoke? Oh and btw, who played Mane thru on goal before he got greedy and fluffed his lines? Solanke.

You think Klopp cares about what the opposition manager thinks and therefore, plans his teams accordingly? He is not that insecure, my friend. Pls, Sam Alardyce is and has always been a clueless manager and you are giving him way too much credit for that. A dead clock is right twice a day does not mean the clock works.

16 Dec 2017 12:35:28
Sam is extremely skilled at what he does. It’s not actual football, it’s something far far uglier but his job is not to earn trophies. It’s to help a club avoid relegation and there is no better manager out there in my mind who can do it. Short term, he has saved a sinking ship but I feel bad for Everton fans who have to endure a dreadful two seasons of his (ahem) brand of football- as bad as they are, nobody deserves that. As for klopp not playing his strongest team, I respect bringing in Solanke but there was no worse game to start. Perhaps klopp was arrogant enough to believe we’d bowl them over with a “weakened” team. It’s disappointing but hopefully he’ll learn and never do it again. I worry more about Ron- we need someone to remind us it’ll all be alright when it’s all going wrong. Perhaps Harry could step in for the moment with a little positivity?

16 Dec 2017 13:05:03
Nice one, AOE. I like your post about Fat Scam BUT I just disagree with the "Klopp is arrogant" stuff. Klopp nor LFC are in no position to be arrogant about anything given the crap we have had to deal with for years and arrogance did not make Klopp destroy the mighty Bayern and win the trophies he has won. He is a very honorable and humble man and I love that about him.

Now, back to your post. Look at Brighton. Had he had his CB's, he would have played them instead of Can and Wiji. Had he had them healthy and STILL played Can and Wiji then for sure, he is arrogant. That was not the case at Brighton nor vs Everton.
Klopp played a team that was missing Cou (knock) and Firmino (fatigue) and were not deemed fit enuff to start. That is not arrogance. That is reality. You may disagree with the lineup BUT those were the cards he was dealt. He put out the best team he had available and had no choice but to start Solanke. The manager plays the players he has available to him based on fitness and energy levels, end of. This is not rocket science as all managers do this cos well, that is the hand they are dealt.

The team was good enuff to win the game and the so called "best team" were poor vs WBA so by that standard, he might as well have played the "weak" team vs WBA as they seemed to actually care while the best team did not look bothered esp. in CM.

16 Dec 2017 16:42:14
Fair enough brover- I should probably state that the word arrogance wasn't meant in a completely negative way- merely confidence in how badly Everton have been- as a manager I think there should be a certain amount of arrogance when making hard decisions. It wasn't a knock on klopp- but playing the team he played was in my view a mistake. These things happen and I hope he learns. I think the frustration for his team selection was in him playing key players for the full 90 against a battered team midweek instead of subbing them for the derby. Again, I hope he learns. I'm very much of the opinion that if they're fit to be on the bench, they're fit to start. I think if you are rotating, it should be two to three players at a time and be clever with substitutions- especially when there's a massive massive game to come.

15 Dec 2017 15:33:56
Eds how good is Donnarumma? Debut for Milan at 16 is extraordinary. Im sure his poisonous agent has a career path mapped out for him already. Hopefuly our own young keeper Grabara is the real deal as he looks very promising.

{Ed001's Note - excellent young player.}

15 Dec 2017 15:43:22
£50m get him? 😉 thanks for reply mate.

{Ed001's Note - doubt it would enough for him.}

15 Dec 2017 15:50:02
Was going to suggest throwing Migs into the deal too but they would look for £60m then Haha. jokin aside i never understood the reluctance to splash out on a top keeper. its such an important position that can spread confidence throughout a squad and make the difference between a decent season and a sucessful one.

{Ed001's Note - should be the most important buy.}

15 Dec 2017 16:05:19
It’s the difference for Man U for last couple of seasons. I’d spend 50 plus million on bringing in a great young keeper. The likes of Donnarumma would solve our huge Achilles heel for many years to come.

{Ed002's Note - Not going to happen.}

15 Dec 2017 16:02:20
Agreed. thanks for replies and keep up the great work. love this page.

{Ed001's Note - welcome mate.}

15 Dec 2017 16:13:15
Completely agree Peterpan and Ed001. The one position that you can't carry a weak link!

{Ed001's Note - build from the back, it has always been the way to do it.}

15 Dec 2017 16:56:53
Brian Clough knew the score when he brought Peter Shilton in. Two European Cups proved him right. Rafa replaced Dudek after won us the Champipns League. He was a good keeper but Reina was better. No sentiment, just improve a vital position in the team. That is what is needed now.

15 Dec 2017 19:32:07
Do you rate Grabara ed?

{Ed001's Note - not seen enough to judge him, I don't get the time to watch the reserves and youth games any more, sadly.}

15 Dec 2017 19:56:55
How do you rate Karius, Ed 001? I think he improves us greatly, not just in shot stopping abilities but how quick he is to get the ball and move it to our attackers. It seems he has started to learn from his previous mistakes but only further matches will tell.

{Ed001's Note - he hasn't really been tested enough to see what he can do, but a good part of the reason he has not been tested is the confidence he brings to the backline compared to Mignolet. At the very least he is confident, good on the ball and quick to get the ball forward. All of which are things we normally lack and that we need. He is growing on me to be honest.}

15 Dec 2017 22:59:34
You are right, Ed. It is not a coincidence that the defence looks more sure and secure when he plays as he seems to be in charge and very decisive when coming out for a ball on the deck or in the air. This is may explain why he seems to have very little to do whereas when Migs is there and tho he may have nothing to do, he just gives us the jitters while Karius is the complete opposite.

He is confident and sure of himself and the defenders seem to know what he will do. I rate the kid and am sure there is a good GK somewhere in there as he came to us highly rated. I propose we build our own top class GK as the top GK's are all taken and their clubs will NOT sell.

16 Dec 2017 06:02:56
Karius needs to be first choice now. And he should be given time to make the spot his own. He has all the tools to be a Klopp GK but needs the support of the fans.

16 Dec 2017 09:57:19
I agree IB, from what I've seen from Karius this season so far he's impressed me, he deserves his chance but I fear we'll see Migs back in tomorrow which winds me up, fingers crossed its Karius.

16 Dec 2017 10:35:44
Whether Karius becomes first choice or not is not down to the fans. It's about whether Klopp trusts him and whether he does the business on the pitch.

16 Dec 2017 11:04:27
Putney, I fully agree. However, Klopp has intimated (via Ed01's info) that he is hesitant to put Karius back in long term cos he is scared the fans will get on his back as soon as he makes a mistake (as if no GK in history has ever made one before him) like they shamelessly did last season to the point of nearly destroying his fledgling LFC career. We cannot ignore that as that threatened to destroy our season as a whole.

So in some way, it is down to the "fans" tho I agree that Klopp should put him in and tell such fans to get over themselves cos the others like myself will support him. Afterall, I did not want Ox here YET he has my full support.

16 Dec 2017 13:21:12
BRover - Well said, there are some true fans after all.

16 Dec 2017 18:40:44
"Klopp has intimated (via Ed01's info) that he is hesitant to put Karius back in long term cos he is scared the fans will get on his back as soon as he makes a mistake"

Seriously? A manager who picks his team based on fear of fans reaction?

It's a shame he didn't take that into account last week.

15 Dec 2017 13:19:14
Ben Woodburn left out of Under 23 squad for the game today.

Don't think he is injured, maybe we'll finally see him back in the first team squad on Sunday?

Fingers crossed!

15 Dec 2017 17:49:16
Let’s hope so.

15 Dec 2017 10:39:04
Discussion point.

Does anybody else think Solanke and Origi would work as a 2 man strike partnership? Both are very young, technically good, powerful, direct, but both also look better with a strike partner.

Could be a real battering ram option for next season.

{Ed002's Note - You think Origi will be back then?}

15 Dec 2017 10:56:18
Yeah, they'd be great together.

For West Ham.

15 Dec 2017 11:24:15
Bit harsh Ron? Origi was excellent at times.

15 Dec 2017 11:21:16
I'm not sure Ed002, it was just a point for discussion to be honest. I think there will be a lot of teams willing to offer him first team football. He is a decent striker and people forget how young he is. It would be a shame for us to lose him. Especially as Sturridge, Ings and Brewster will all probably leave, as he might get more chances then. He's doing well in Germany though. He got nominated for rookie player of the month last week, so i expect Wolfsburg will want to make it a permanent deal.

Ron, i think that's a bit harsh. Solanke got nominated for the European Golden boy award and fired England u20's to a victory at a World Cup. Origi has already scored for us and Belgium in massive games. Has your account been hacked? You're a savage nowadays 😂 I'm not suggesting they're ready to be first choice, but if a team was sitting deep and stifling Salah, Firmino and Mane it would be great to throw Origi and Solanke on for half an hour to cause havoc. They're both powerful and direct.

{Ed002's Note - Wolfsburg will want to keep him and he wants to stay in Germany. I doubt he has any future under Klopp.}

15 Dec 2017 11:41:36
Origi and Solanke have great potential, I just can't see them working together personally but would be interesting to see it. How is Origi's loan spell doing?

15 Dec 2017 12:11:09
Personally I think Ings is more suited to our play than Origi and should be ahead of solanke as he’s proven although hopefully solanke fulfills his potential.

15 Dec 2017 12:41:02
I don't disagree with that to be fair Pegleg. Though i think Solanke is a better prospect, Ings is the better player currently based on what I've seen from him in the u23's.

I think Ings and Sturridge will leave though, maybe as soon as January. At their age, they should be playing regular football and that just won't happen for us.

I think it'll be up to Origi and Ed002 has now told us he wants to stay in Germany so i expect that will happen. To answer the question, Origi has been impressing steadily in Germany. They are a country who know how to nurture young talent as well so it would be a good career move for him.

If we lose Sturridge (West Ham? ), Ings (Newcastle? ) Origi (Wolfsburg? ) and Brewster (Dortmund? ) in the summer/ January then i think we might cause ourselves problems. Although they're not regulars, we'd need to replace them with at least one player for squad depth. Firmino, Solanke, Salah, Woodburn, Mane and Chamberlain looks a little bit light to me. We'd forever be one injury away from a crisis. Perhaps Wilson or Ojo could step up though to be fair.

15 Dec 2017 12:44:00
I’d rather see Solanke play with someone like Firmino or Salah - someone who can feed off his hold up play, has clever movement and also pull into the wide areas as required.

15 Dec 2017 13:02:16
I'd love to see him playing regularly alongside Firmino, Mane and Salah to be fair Grobs24. Coutinho isn't exactly trying right now so he has games where he just can't be bothered, like West Brom. Solanke will put in a shift in every game though. He's not as good, but at least we won't have players relying on a Coutinho who only shows up when he feels like it!

15 Dec 2017 13:10:45
Grobs24, with Ings he’s the closest player to firmino with his work ethic although he’s not at the same skill level. But but where Ings will make up for it he has an eye for goal which is the only thing lacking from firmino’s game. For me if I was rotating firmino with anyone it would be Ings as from what I’ve seen of him, and I watched him at Burnley he’d fit in if he can stay fit.

15 Dec 2017 14:00:38
It's all about expectations MKS. A front 2 of Origi and Solanke next season is not going to help us challenge Man City for the title.

We need to upgrade our first team, not stick some 20yr olds with potential in.

15 Dec 2017 13:52:05
The only player ever to score a hattrick without trying?

15 Dec 2017 14:13:01
I'm with MK I really like Origi, scored some impressive goals (remember the 2 against Dortmund) he has good qualities, pace, good finishing, shame to see him go, hope he does well.

15 Dec 2017 14:34:29
I see your point Ron. However, Messi, Owen, Fowler, Jesus, Rashford and Kane all got their chances at 18-21 years old and never looked back. As others have pointed out, Origi has already scored big European goals for us, a hat trick, a Derby goal, and even a world cup goal for Belgium. He's not as bad as you are suggesting. Solanke was nominated in the top 25 kids in Europe according to the Golden Boy award shortlist so he can't be a bad player either!

Plus I never suggested they be first choice. Just an alternative "option" to the complicated and intricate play which doesn't seem to work every time against banked up defences.

15 Dec 2017 14:54:01
Ok, well I'll repeat, if we're using them in the first team together we are not going to be challenging for the league.

Apart from Messi, how many of the players you mention have been contributing to title winning teams as youngsters? Jesus at a stretch.

15 Dec 2017 15:13:16
At this point I'd love the kids to be given a couple years to develop as a team In the hope that we'd improve season on season, not to mention our finances would start improving. That said, it would simply never happen for many many reasons but throwing money at our deficiencies hasn't brought us great success.

15 Dec 2017 15:13:45
Jesus at a stretch? How very Christmassy of you.

15 Dec 2017 16:29:58
Whilst you are correct that none of them played in title winning teams, I'm not sure you can pin the lack of success on them. Fowler scored 36 goals at 19 years of age. We didn't win the league with him because the other 10 players weren't good enough. It was nothing to do with Fowlers age.

I think you're being close minded about this. Age is irrelevant. If you're good enough, you're old enough. You keep banging on about Derby games. Well City won the Manchester Derby with Sterling, Jesus and Sane starting up front. They are 22, 19 and 21.

Dortmund took the league title off of Bayern Munich with a 22 year old Lewandowski supported by an 18 year old Gotze as well.

Age really is irrelevant mate. If we don't give Solanke a fair chance, we'll just ruin his career and have wasted our chance at developing a top talent who could potentially lead our line for a decade. Solanke and Gomez are the best u21 players I've seen at Liverpool in my life time. I will be infuriated if we waste their talent because we're impatient or scared to give them a chance.

15 Dec 2017 17:57:34
Very well said MK - sometimes you need to give special young talent the opportunity to settle, not just a game here and there. It’s painful in the short term as they’ll be inconsistent but you’ll reap the rewards later once they are integrated and the confidence is up.

I think Solanke and Woodburn are two of these, just like Gomez was a few months ago and now our best defender. Brewster may well be another in time.

15 Dec 2017 22:02:52
MKS : they are not good enough, that's the point.

They are good enough at a certain level but they are not at the level we need to progress - yet.

If you think they are then ask yourself if you think Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Man City, PSG would sign them?
Solanke has been let go by Chelsea ( KdB, Lukaku and Salah were sold, not let go) and Origi is missing open goals from 1 yard out.

15 Dec 2017 23:15:59
Ron, football esp. with youth does not work that way as it is not an exact science. If you think the kid is the real deal, then you have to play him and give him time to progress as inconsistency is part of the learning process. We are doing the exact thing with Gomez and TAA and they are improving w/ every passing day. Whether they would make it at RM, Barcelona or whatever is irrelevant, IMO.

We will never know if they are good enough until you actually play them. Saying they are not good enough cos they are young and inconsistent, is wrong and slating Origi (I watch Origi a lot in Germany and I have not seen him do that this season and he has scored 5 goals already) and Solanke (who many were happy with at first BUT are now getting on his back) does not help either. If you don't allow a young player time to settle and improve, you don't deserve the player you want him to become, plain and simple.

16 Dec 2017 03:01:53
Mk you need to look at this a different way mate! . Yes big Dom might be rated this and that but understand that is against other kids it's a whole different story when your playing with men pal.
Up to now solanke has done nothing when playing against men, imo mate ron is right you need to stop bringing his daft accolades up ad the really are pointless mate.
This has surprised me as you tend to write good stuff and your points of view are usually bang on but this well the less said the better unfortunately bud.

16 Dec 2017 09:55:56
It was against RB Leipzig BRover.

It's on the BBC website under the title
"Origi's embarrassing miss for Wolfsburg"

16 Dec 2017 10:08:10
We need to look at why we are so inconsistent and what other teams are doing better than we are.
Are City developing young players in their first team?
Are Chelsea developing young players in their first team?

If you want to continue, as we are, as Spurs and Arsenal are, then by all means do it.
If you want to win things, you have to look to improve. You have to sign players to improve the first team.
Continuously "developing" young players in the first team is something we've done for the last 25 years with no success in the league and with continuing lack of consistency. It's no coincidence.

16 Dec 2017 11:17:34
Ok Ron, I stand corrected as I did not watch that game (I know I missed something) . Strikers miss open goals all the time even the best ones, so not to bothered with that esp. with a young player still learning the CF position which is hardest to learn as a youth player. We are already better than City and Chelsea in developing young players into the first team. We are now progressing towards making them mainstays in the team and that is the next step.

Signing players to improve the first team is what every team/ manager tries to do so preaching to the choir on that one. As it stand, we are in the Spurs and Arsenal category as we will NEVER be spending 300m every season like City do or 200m every season like Utd do. Those are the facts and if anyone has issues with that then yeah, they are supporting the wrong club. We are doing a Spurs right now and they seem to be improving every season since Poch was there. Klopp and the owners are trying to do the same here and there will be bumps on the road. You keep the faith and believe in what you are trying to do. That is the reality.

16 Dec 2017 12:12:39
The reality is Spurs, like us, have gone over 2 and a half decades without winning the league.
What have Spurs won by developing players in the first team?
What have City and Chelsea won by not developing young players IN THE FIRST TEAM - a lot!

Chelsea and City have realised that if you develop players by playing them in the first team you will not win anything.
Last player we successfully developed in our first team was Sterling. What happened there? He went to City when we'd finished "developing him" and won loads.
A team that develops young players in the first team is a "stepping stone" club. That's why we've got Solanke.

15 Dec 2017 00:26:26
Ed1 a question if I may? As a Liverpool fan do you think we have had more than our fair share of bad luck and poor refereeing decisions this season? Apart from Migs not seeing red against Stoke it seems every big decision has gone against us starting with 2 offside goals against Watford in the opening day. We’ve had Mane sent off with 50% of people saying he shouldn’t but it went against us. Vardy’s Dive that led to a goal, Juanma fluking one of his knee, Willian fuming one into the top corner, Everton getting a penalty when their player jumps into Lovren, now Solanke’s ‘handball’. We even somehow had a penalty given against us at Brighton although it made no difference in the end.
I know you could give arguments that all of those are correct decisions but I think they could all have gone a different way on a different day with a different ref but this season they are all going against us.
99 times out of 100 Juanma’s goes out for a goal kick, Willian’s sails over the bar, De Gea’s inspector gadget leg doesn’t get to Matip’s shot.
I just feel that aside from City and Spurs the margins have been so tight and the big moments seem to have gone against us and it could’ve been so different had we just either got the luck or the decision in some of those games. Even the City game had Mane got a yellow we could still have won that game.
I don’t want to sound like I’m whinging, I’m not I actually normally think it evens itself out but this season it seems like we’ve run over a black cat or something.
What are you thoughts on it?

{Ed001's Note - naw I think we have been fairly lucky ourselves with some of the way the balls have bobbled through to our players etc. We just need to be better.}

15 Dec 2017 05:00:48
Agree Ed - we’ve had some good luck, some bad, leave the commentary around luck and refereeing decisions to Mourinho. Man City certainly isn’t complaining.

As Gary Player said, the harder I train, the luckier I get.

{Ed001's Note - exactly mate, if the players have a problem they should work harder, not moan.}

15 Dec 2017 10:37:21
Spot on Grob and Ed. We just have to be better and keep working hard. Nothing is lost and had we won both games of late, nothing would have been sealed. Oh n btw, you can add Wenger to that list.

14 Dec 2017 19:09:10
Ed001, do you think there's anything being done or said to Coutinho behind closed doors from Klopp etc at the club RE his work rate?

Its appalling, and if I were one of his teammates (particularly Bobby as he's having to work for both of them) I'd be furious.

He needs to be dropped and at least made to earn his place in the team.

{Ed001's Note - there will be things said about it, but there is not a lot you can do when a player's heart is not in it.}