31 Jul 2023 16:48:25
Ed001
Was wondering if you could do a write up on this one.
Why ex players are not cracking it as managers

Keane, Scholes, Neville, Solsjkear, Gerrard, Fowler, Lampard, Viera come to mind
Great players but getting it right as managers

Is it individual issues or is there a common factor there?

Any info would be great to read.

Thanks.

{Ed001's Note - I have added that to the to do list.}

1.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 04:41:49
You know, I have been wondering this myself too. It feels like the transition from player to coach should be seamless, due to the environment they were brought up in, having a mixture of managers with different strengths and weaknesses that they can learn of off. Not to mention the personalities of the players mentioned, many of whom were real leaders that set standards of practice throughout their tenure as a player.

I do wonder if it is a mindset thing. Where, as a player, especially a youngster breaking through, it was about displacing a teammate to take their spot. The onus was very much about individual progression to ensure you could fit into the team dynamic, from youngster to professional. That was a constant mindset.

Then, when you become the manager, the focus shifts from individual to team based. You have to consider so many more variables, variables you are not in control of and can only affect marginally. Instead, you have to place trust in players to be able to meet your expectations in the short and/ or long term. Having patience which, in the managerial profession, is seldom given by decision makers at the club.

This is just my thoughts as a coach myself, I found the transition from player to coach really difficult and frustrating. I knew what I wanted, what I was capable of, and when my players struggled to reach that, I did not have the experience or intelligence to adapt to meet their needs.

Great question, by the way. I will be interested to hear ED001's response, as well as others in the forum.

2.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 05:29:03
It’s simple really, great players had a skill set, akin to their position in the team, ie, strikers have positional sense, pace and above all an instinct to find the net.
They don’t all posses good man management skills and the ability to outwit your opponent tactically. Some don’t have the aura of a manager either, where you have to be fair but firm and display an expectancy for respect from the players under your leadership.

3.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 06:46:19
No passion, not enough desire. They don’t need to work another day as they have financial independence and existing fame.

{Ed025's Note - i think your spot on Ron..

4.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 07:12:06
Many of them also have no real idea why they were so good at football. They can’t work out why the pass they could make in their sleep is beyond the capabilities of 99.5% of people, nor why what takes them 3 tries takes a lesser player 300 to get right.
Intelligence definitely comes into it, but then you have examples like Lampard, who is by many accounts and metrics of well above average intelligence yet is an appalling manager.
Zidane, Enrique and Ancelotti are all examples of successful coaches who were also top players (in Zidane’s case, elite), yet all have only ever succeeded when coaching the world’s elite players, and done relatively poorly when not (Ancelotti at Everton and Napoli, Enrique at Roma and Spain) .

5.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 07:13:12
This is normal in most sports and most walks of life though, most of the best golf coaches are usually good but not great golfers. Being able to teach and do are very different skillsets.

Most people will spend 14 odd years in a school system but very few would make good teachers at the end of it.

6.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 07:15:10
Intelligence

Not saying them lads are in anyway dummies but you need a real
Good level of intelligence and also great people
Skills .

7.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 07:36:56
I think it's about putting players, staff and fans first. I don't think gerrard, lampard etc are quite ready for that yet. As it's always been about them.

8.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 07:45:36
People have aptitudes for different things. - as @Pickle said an aptitude for playing is a different aptitude to coaching

I also think in the modern game with the ever present social media a larger number of players readily believe their press far too much and they are prone to falling into the trap of assuming because they are good at one they will automatically be good at the other.

9.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 07:45:56
Think about this:

1) there are 11 players in a team, many more in decent sized squad. So say an average of 500 top players in prem alone (ok not all world class but mostly high achieving individuals on high salaries)

2) most have gone through a similar route to getting where they are, and witness the approach to management, training, tactics, etc etc you could say they learn in the job but

3) As in all walks of life there are people to which a particular role is suitable - those that get it and know how to apply the learnings - and those to whom it is not (a decent technician not a decent man manager teacher etc) . It is a different skill entirely some will have it in them others not) . Then:

4) there are 20 premiership managers! Ok there are loads of coaching staff around but again they are many technicians who can apply parts of the need.

10.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 07:54:57
Will be a tough question to answer that because for all the ex players you named you then have managers who were Ex professional footballers such as Pep, Simone, Ancelloti, Zidane, Pochetino, Arteta etc and whilst not the most successful player even Klopp played professionally.

I think it could be a case of each manager who failed just didn’t have the skill set or personality to succeed.

Doing it yourself is one thing and inspiring others to do it is a totally different thing.

11.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 08:23:14
@PickleRick, that’s why the saying goes, “Those who can? Do. Those who can’t? Teach. ”.

12.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 08:24:14
It seems to be easier for the Top guys to get high income journalistic or pundit roles (TV in particular) than managerial or coaching ones (knowing that management is a saturated market per my note above) . Typically the news outlets will choose the top players after they retire - again a skill to preset by yourself on TV but there are fewer non-internationals in this space and the jobs are lucrative and less time consuming. I know someone will say they don’t need the money. It want and need are miles apart.

13.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 08:49:49
I think some of these managers jump to the big clubs too soon. Gerrard and Lampard did quite well at Rangers and Derby then jumped to big clubs. Personally think they should manage in league one or two for a while. Mark Hughes is managing Bradford now (no offense to Bradford) . After being with Man City, Stoke etc.

14.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 08:56:43
@Oli, teachers don’t say that, mate ?.

15.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 09:15:47
Bobby Moore and Bobby Charlton, 2 of England's greatest ever players, never cut it as a manager. Like others have said, playing and managing are completely different skill sets.

16.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 09:26:23
I think it’s 3 things:

They fast track their coaching qualifications, so haven’t gained as much experience as peers who weren’t top ex-players.

They’re given jobs too soon. Linked to the above point, but they lack experience to coach at the top level and how to deal with certain circumstances.

The best leaders in any walk of life typically surround themselves with a team whose skills and abilities compliment their own. So in the coaching context, if you’re a great motivator, get an assistant who is an excellent tactician etc. So many ex players end up with a back room staff of likeminded people or mates from their playing days rather than what is needed.

17.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 09:44:18
Not yet convinced Zidane is all that to be honest. Get him to build a team rather than guide one at the peak of its powers then we’ll see.

I don’t think there’s any difference with the current crop than any of the previous ones either. Most players that transition into managers fail and always have done. That’s how you sort the wheat from the chaff. Players have barely had to manage to tie their laces and then have to organise a whole team scenario. It’s such a departure from that that most people, let alone players with no real management experience will fail and are not cut out for it.

For every failed superstar like Gerrard or lampard there will be an unknown success like Klopp or Wenger, maybe Potter or De Zerbi and the like in the future.

I reckon if they were truly keen on setting out for a career in management they’d be much better served spending a good few years doing actual coaching first, gaining experience in a different department of football than the playing side and not having to make all the high profile mistakes themselves.

18.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 10:19:16
It's not that simple. There isn't one reason, or even a few reasons, why great players don't always become great managers. Why one doesn't mightn't be the same reason another doesn't.
If I had to put my finger on one reason it'd the cause of most of the world's problems.
Tight underpants.

19.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 10:44:24
A lot of the time these big name players are given jobs at relatively top clubs, based on their names alone.
So they’ve been given really hard (I’m guessing the higher up the leagues you are, the harder the managers job, generally) jobs from day 1, so they tend to fail because they don’t have the level of knowledge or experience to make it work.
Players should start off in the lower leagues and learn the art of management there, but I suppose none are willing to go from earning millions to pennies or put in the hard graft to start from the bottom after making it at the top.

20.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 10:53:50
Some really interesting reading there guys. I’m liking the responses
Nice to see away from the bickering that occurs on other posts

Keep it up guys and girls.

21.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 11:37:26
Interesting that the King is missing from the conversation. Great player to great manager. Or is there an element of Zidan and Pep there; taking a very good team and making it the best? Good work but from a high starting point. Kenny didn’t quite have the open chequebook the other two have been backed with though.

22.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 11:48:59
One that I haven't seen mentioned is Vincent Kompany. Seems to be doing extremely well professionally as a manager but also comes across as a nice guy and above intelligence. Will be interesting to see how his managerial career develops over the years.

23.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 12:03:10
Some cool posts. Nice one, all.

24.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 12:17:43
ND at the time the amount of money Kenny had to spend at Blackburn was like having an open cheque book. Jack Walker wanted to win a trophy with them and invested a lot and along with the appeal of playing for the King a lot of expensive players joined them. Of course by today's standards the fees involved seem really small.

25.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 12:23:16
This is going to sound scathing but I'm going to include it anyway, I think there is a serious problem with the overall quality of British managers recently. Watching a lot of their post-match interviews it's all soundbites and all passion and desire nonsense.

Don't get me wrong, it's important - but if they're on the losing side they constantly seem to blame their players for not having a 'will-to-win'. Completely ignoring one important factor, the other team also wants to win.

If they're on a bad run the best way to turn it round is always to run harder, put more effort in etc etc.

One thing Gerrard, Lampard, Keane and Solskjaer (I'm including him in this because he was very much football educated in this country) had in common is their teams had no real style of play, no semblance of a system or tactical gameplan. Players were signed based on their name, rather than being a stylistic fit. It was all simple tactics and passion.

Ironically this is extremely lazy management. From the outside looking in there was no patterns they had been practicing through the week, they just thought they could motivate their players and the results would happen. Football has moved on, you need more than that. Everyone runs hard, you need another way to win.

The issue is that a lot of these British managers came from an era of more simplicity in football. People like Guardiola and Klopp, and even the likes of De Zerbi, Pochettino etc have totally transformed the way the game is played and raised the bar for what is needed.

Most mid table clubs have a unique way of playing now, every game poses a different set of challenges and different questions for a manager to answer. You need to plan meticulously for each individual opponent.

Back in the days of the merry-go-round of Curbishley, Pardew, Allardyce, Bruce et al you knew what you were up against. It was the same thing week-in-week out. A couple of gameplans would see you through the season. Not the case anymore

Passion and desire will no longer keep you in the Premier League on it's own. It won't even keep you in the Championship.

26.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 12:25:39
SHughes hit the nail on the head. Man management skills is one of the most difficult skills a person can learn. Even average players will be exposed to tactics, training regimes positioning etc from daily coaching. Many will become ‘leaders’ and thus coaches that are able to inspire and lead to short term success over a short period of time, what we know as the new manager bounce etc. Gerrard probably falls into this category.
Real managers, with man management skills to lead, inspire and keep people happy and motivated as a squad even if they aren’t playing, are few and far between. Your Klopp’s, Pep, Fergie and Ancellotti etc.

27.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 12:55:50
Transfer news is very slow ?

Simple answer really, they’re all rubbish managers because they don’t listen to us genius bunch on here.
We know the lot.

28.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 13:33:48
I would imagine every football related forum has a section of fans who always know better than management.
The original source of the expression armchair experts.
Some are actually quite clever, most are just laughable.

29.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 13:41:01
WDW, coaching is a form of teaching or passing down of knowledge to others. And you’re right. A teacher did not say that. It was a former NFL Quarterback (decent level) who now coaches some of the league’s elite quarterbacks in the off-season, who said so.

You can apply this logic to Klopp or to Jose or to any manager who either never played the game at the highest level (Klopp) or never played it at all (Jose) yet became very successful managers. If you can’t play the game at the highest level, you can definitely coach/ teach others how to do so at the highest level.

30.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 13:44:13
Football management needs key skills like managing relationships, coming up with new ideas, communicating those ideas in a clear and concise way, keeping people motivated to play in consistent manner, keeping your staff motivated, creating an environment of learning and innovation, dealing with executives in the right manner. Top class footballers obviously have experience of working with world class managers, know certain tactical ideas and know what it's like to play the game at that level. But that's like 40 percent of what you need. Simply put, those footballers have work to do on the 60 per cent. They also get thrown in to big jobs too quick. I honestly don't know why they don't go as assistant managers for a good stint and learn. Or stay lower level for a while and build up. Scotland is not a good learning ground. Go championship or league one and earn your strips. Ego is the biggest problem. They want to go from player to manager in a hot second instead of learn the job properly.

Just my opinion of course.

31.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 14:19:39
I feel a lot of it is down to luck and the path you take as a manager. It’s the same as a footballer really - of the 100 players who are supposed to be the next big thing as players, only a fraction make it. Some of it is because they choose the wrong team / coach too early or too late. E. g. was Chelsea the right team for Lampard to start and was Villa the right choice for Gerrard? Did they have the right coaching staff, advisors, director of football and scouts around them? Are they as good a judge of the kind of players that they want to buy in all positions and not just the ones they played in?

32.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 14:35:29
Flash you seem like the kind of guy that could be given a bag full of money and you would complain and cry that the bag was too heavy.

33.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 14:46:26
I love the whole "fans think they know more" argument. Well obviously players and managers know more than us.

Shall we just never talk about football again then? I'd suggest changing the subject but I'm not sure I'd be allowed to do that either. Can't even talk about the weather because I don't know as much as the weatherman.

34.) 01 Aug 2023
01 Aug 2023 20:38:58
This is not a new thing bobby charlton failed, nobby stiles, emlyn hughes, geof hurst, martin peters, all winners all failed .

Only a few excell as managers at the very top and win the biggest trophies .

Being an elite footballer does not always make you a elite manager.