23 Aug 2022 13:58:30
United fan here, not here to gloat but for genuine discussion (I know I'll get pelters anyway) .

Last nights result tells us as much about Liverpool as it does United. Which is pretty much FA. Liverpool had a lot of injuries, United were right up for it after the Brentford game, and tactically Liverpool's style of play and the strengths of the current United squad played perfectly into EtH's hands. That was a million miles away from how EtH would like his side to play, but was a needs must tactical performance.

It's not the end of Liverpool, nor is it the rebirth of United (or at least not yet) .

I'd be stunned if Liverpool finished any lower than 3rd, most likely 2nd still in my opinion. Injuries will abate, players will come back, other teams form will wane and Liverpool's class will tell in the end.

What I really want to discuss though is how do the current Liverpool fans envision the near future of their club?

The title this season season is probably unlikely. While over the next few season's there is the issue of an aging squad. Alisson, Matip, VvD, Milner, Thiago, Henderson, Salah and Firmino are all going to be in their 30's over the next few seasons and will likely start to see a decline, if not already for one or two of them.

While an argument could be made that both Robertson and Fabinho could see an early decline in performance due to the positions they play and they way they play those positions. Although I think they'll be fine, just look like they need a proper rest.

Yes there have been a few signings recently to address the future, but player like Kieta, Jota and Konate have/ are proving to be a little injury prone and as such difficult to rely on over an entire season.

There are a few young players in the squad who look like they have bright futures. The issue however might be Klopp.

Klopp's greatest strength as a manager is his ability to get total commitment from his players, they give him everything. But that is due to his total commitment to them. At Dortmund what undone him in the end was his devotion to those players who he had managed for many years. He was reluctant to drop them even as their form declined as they aged. He does seem to lack a ruthless streak in terms of moving players on when they are past their best.

We could see it last night, Robertson has been in poor form this season, but there's a real reluctance to give Tsimikas a chance, even though I think he's been excellent when he's played. Milner and Henderson both started and were left on for far too long. I appreciate there is an injury crisis, but Carvalho was very good when he came on begging the question why didn't he come on sooner, or even start.

A pattern that harks back to Klopp's time at Dortmund, sticking with the old guard even as they are declining and not giving the young blood the chance to come through and develop.

Personally I think Klopp is the best manager in the world currently, even above Saint Pep. But he has shown a real issue in being able to rebuild a great side, a reluctance to dismantle the old to rebuild the new. While Liverpool has an aging squad surely that has to be a major concern.

1.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 14:18:43
That's a cracking piece, Shappy, thanks for coming across.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said, though I disagree about Tsimikas. Every time I watch him he still looks like he's celebrating his penalty.

2.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 14:30:29
Very good post, Shappy.

I agree, Bobby, Hendo, Thiago and Milner are past their prime, whilst Keita and Ox are too injury prone. Fab is arguably still in his prime but needs can't play all 50 games a year.

We have very good young attacking midfielders players in Elliott, Carvalho and Jones, who Klopp does trust, although i'd like to see Carvalho start against Bournemouth.

Ultimately we need a younger version of Hendo. A proper number 8, who can contribute to the defensive responsibilities and so Trent isn't exposed, as well as an understudy for Fab, who can then have a break every now and then.

3.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 14:54:08
Nice to see Shappys essays make it across.

Every man and his dog should of known you'd be up for it last night, from the protests to the poor start. Last night was a perfect opportunity for you to show fight and you got the result you deserved.

As for us, I think klopp likes an evolution rather then a revolution. So players move on and get replaced Diaz and Mane the prime example. The problem we have is that some of the players purchased haven't transitioned into the team mainly due to injury.

Konate should be with VVD and Keita was meant to change our midfield and it hasn't worked out as examples.

So now rather then it being 1 or 2 changes its 3 or 4. Which is fine its just needs a bit of patience.

This season looks to be a turbulent one at least short term, similar to the season before last. But as you say they will pick it up its just a case of when.

As for you boys, last night was a potential turning point but for it to stick ETH needs to stick to his guns. Keep Ronaldo and Maguire benched and move forward. But if he sticks them back in next game your right back to square one.

4.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 15:11:51
Great post Shappy, really appreciate the debate.

I agree, not much to be drawn from yesterday other than both teams have had a pretty poor start! I agree we will be back in the mix - I'm no where near the "we'll do really well to get top 4" merchants. We will be 2nd or 3rd, and if 3rd, I think behind Arsenal.

I mentioned a few weeks ago that I fear that our 'peak age' players are either non-existent or injury prone. Actually, in defence is where I believe we have the best cover:

VVD and Matip - both 30+, both still have a lot to offer and/ or are best in their position but both have less left of their career than is past.

Gomez and Konate - early to mid 20s, yes they've both had injury issues, but both are fantastic defenders - I can see them becoming the preferred partnership. Phillips is in here too as backup, but is a step down in quality.

VDB, Koumetio etc - teens, coming through. Hopeful of loans and/ or cup starts to bed them in.

Tsimikas is great cover for Robbo, with Owen Beck behind him in the younger category.

Ramsay and Bradley between them are in the younger category. Personally I would've liked to keep Williams as an alternative to Trent as, same as Tsmikas/ Robbo, there's not as much of a drop between the two of them.

Midfield is where I struggle. Keita is the only midfielder that is in his 'prime', and he's made out of quavers.

We have a few younger ones - Elliot, Calrvalho, Bajcetic, Morton, Jones - who are coming through. But as with all young players, consistency is the last thing that comes.

Then the rest - Hendo, Thiago, Milner, Fabs - are all either 30+ already or closing in (maybe Fabs sits with Keita as he may be 28).

Where is that group in the middle who offer similar quality to the 30+ age group and rotation options, but already experienced?

Up front, we have Jota, Diaz and Nunez who should all be in their prime. However, Jota has been injury prone, so we are missing Origi and Minamino at the moment.

Salah and Firmino are both in their 30s. Whereas I believe Salah has plenty left to give (like the elite group of players that he belongs to) I think all can see that Firmino doesn't work as well without Salah and Mane around him, and Diaz is not the same player as Mane.

I am worried, but more for the next 2-3 years than this season. Like I said, we will get top 3, maybe top 2, but not winning the league this season, imo.

5.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 15:12:03
Funny how a utd fan can see that LFC aren’t in crisis but after 3 poor results the LFC so called fans think we are.

6.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 15:22:57
Thiago is still a cracking footballer. He just can’t stay fit which is a major issue in itself.

7.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 15:54:12
Horrible result last night and a disjointed performance, We looked tired more than anything i thought, but we will come again and players will be back fit soon, i think in one way it shows the lack of squad depth of real quality as we didn't really have anyone to come and change things. Even when everyone is fit i think as a squad we are a couple short. BUt the season is to quote a cliche a marathon not a sprint and we go again, come on boys YNWA.

8.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 15:58:08
Balanced post, Shappy.

Klopp is the still the man. If he can compromise with the recruitment team on targets they still have time to freshen up one or two positions and put some life back into the season.

I also have to wonder whether the coaching team needs a fresh voice too. Even I get sick of listening to Lijnders and I don't work there.

9.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 17:44:05
We're a few squad players short, that's all.
Some of the more experienced fringe players are not of the levels we require and we are expecting too much of the youngsters. Elliott and Carvalho in the team together are not going to win is the League.
I don't know why Klopp is hanging to the likes of Firmino, Keita and Ox.

10.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 18:26:42
Great post Zeddicus. We needed that prime midfielder this summer in the 24-25 age category that would be the class number 8 we desperately need. I would have bought two actually and sold Jones.

11.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 18:33:19
Probably because the owners won't give klopp any more funds for players.

12.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 19:10:21
Nice post op. To put blunt we're doomed klopp will be gone by end of season and no decent manager to take over. Basically we will be battling your lot for mid table positions.
I could of course be wrong but predicted this a few seasons back.

13.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 19:34:08
LFCmad great post. Couldn't agree more!

14.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 19:46:58
Great to hear everyone's views and that my observations aren't too far from the ones you guys are making.

Two draws and a defeat is poor form, I think it always gets blown up more at the start of the season as things look disproportionately bad as a couple of points difference is the difference between witting 4th or 16th. But people look at the table and panic seeing the club down near the relegation zone.

If that run of results happened in January when you're 1st or 2nd and it just means dropping back a few points then it's no panic.

Liverpool will come good, you have too good a squad and too good a manager not to. In your absolute worst season in recent times you finished 3rd. That only happened due to a frankly ridiculous injury list and you having no defenders for most of the season. That's unlikely to happen again which means 3rd is the absolute worst position you will finish.

You'll easily beat Bournemouth next, they are absolutely the worst team in the EPL, Scott Parker managing them and Dominic Solanke is their best player.

Newcastle is a tough game, and you'll need the confidence you'll get from beating Bournemouth to over come Newcastle. Then comes the derby, a game the whole squad will be up for and a big early season game.

Although if you're heading into that on the back of a draw with Bournemouth and a loss to Newcastle expect to hear a huge chorus of the sky is falling from sections of the fanbase.

Even if that turns out to be true, come May you'll still be in the top 3, or not top 2. Although it might be tricky to catch City for the title.

15.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 19:34:08
LFCmad great post. Couldn't agree more!

16.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 19:46:58
Great to hear everyone's views and that my observations aren't too far from the ones you guys are making.

Two draws and a defeat is poor form, I think it always gets blown up more at the start of the season as things look disproportionately bad as a couple of points difference is the difference between witting 4th or 16th. But people look at the table and panic seeing the club down near the relegation zone.

If that run of results happened in January when you're 1st or 2nd and it just means dropping back a few points then it's no panic.

Liverpool will come good, you have too good a squad and too good a manager not to. In your absolute worst season in recent times you finished 3rd. That only happened due to a frankly ridiculous injury list and you having no defenders for most of the season. That's unlikely to happen again which means 3rd is the absolute worst position you will finish.

You'll easily beat Bournemouth next, they are absolutely the worst team in the EPL, Scott Parker managing them and Dominic Solanke is their best player.

Newcastle is a tough game, and you'll need the confidence you'll get from beating Bournemouth to over come Newcastle. Then comes the derby, a game the whole squad will be up for and a big early season game.

Although if you're heading into that on the back of a draw with Bournemouth and a loss to Newcastle expect to hear a huge chorus of the sky is falling from sections of the fanbase.

Even if that turns out to be true, come May you'll still be in the top 3, or not top 2. Although it might be tricky to catch City for the title.

17.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 20:57:27
It's not all the doom and gloom we're making it out to be. Last season a lot of the same talk and then we turned around and almost did the quad. Yes we should have signed a mid. Yes Trent needs to defend better or we're going to give up golden chances game after game. Trent has really let the team down this season imo. Giving up a goal in the first half every game and it's been Trent's side every time. Sure Fab and Virgil to blame for Palace but teams know they can get at our right side and it's getting tedious. We are a different team w thiago on the pitch but sometimes it's like having a Rolls in the driveway w no money for petrol so we take the bus. We need a realiable creative mid. Jones for me isn't it. I think he'll be sold next summer. Can't stay fit and far too casual; he just hasn't kicked on like other younger players such as Elliot and Trent. Carvalho is looking very good from what I've seen and I can see him pushing for a start. Diaz has to learn to not allow defenders to continually force him backwards; needs to be physically stronger and start taking people on. Maybe it's confidence. Nunez well he's been an idiot and hopefully he comes back in; lots to prove from him. So all in all I dont' see the squad in crisis. every time we've needed someone FSG have come through. I like that we don't throw the checkbook at something but I'll caveat that w Klopp has worked wonders over the years with what he's got. I agree he's the better coach because he's built teams from nothing whereas Guardiola has not. We have some good young players on the books and with one or two signings next year we will be in the mix for years to come. For this season to be successful (solid top four and a run in the CL - our poor start being considered and injuries my expectations have dropped slightly), we need Thiago to be fit and Elliott and Carvalho to have good seasons and establish themselves firmly in the midfield.

18.) 23 Aug 2022
23 Aug 2022 21:52:30
Well they are as tight as it comes.