28 Dec 2023 01:14:44
i've watched again and again
if Odeggard's hand was deem to be in a natural position as she was slipping and he was moving his hand out for balance, then Onana's hand surely is in an even more natural position as he slide in to close down the shot, there is no way you can keep your hands fully by your side in that motion unless you are trying to break your shoulder or collarbone upon landing
so the facts are
- Odeggard moved his hand (even if its towards his body) and made contact with the ball, Onana didn't as his hand was already in that position when sliding in
- the ball struck the hands of both players, regardless
if there is any consistency, it should be a pen for both or none. i would even suggest, Onana had more of a claim that a pen shouldn't be given as his hand was in a natural position
so what am i missing here?
1.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 01:36:47
You are missing that its city.
2.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 02:07:54
The rules and their application differ between City and everyone else, this has been clear for a long time now and is only getting more apparent. VAR simply allows referees to cherry pick and justify decisions and then explain them away with utter drivel after the fact.
3.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 06:15:56
Not on board with this City conspiracy. Makes us sound like losers.
4.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 07:38:46
Faith I think that’s the point to make us losers or to help city .
I think the speed in which they came to the Onana decision last night was terrible the ref should have been sent to the monitor at least to see the angles and then decide .
Again consistency is needed but it is city it happened to ?.
5.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 08:42:20
Sgynwa, I think both are penalties, IMO. Onana's arm is up in the air and away from his body when the shot is taken and keep in mind, the shot did not deflect off his chest or body. It went straight to his hand/ arm and it was going on target hence, the denial of a goalscoring opportunity. 100%, text book penalty under the law cos all the parameters are met.
As for the Odegaard one, it is not that complicated either. First off, why did Odegard slip? He slipped cos he like the ball, was going to his right. Then, Salah picks the ball and goes to his (Odegaard's) left and in his bid to change direction, he slipped. So essentially, Odegaard slipped cos Salah cooked him.
Salah's touch takes the ball away and towards goal as Salah is about to get in and Odegaad is in a panic and then reaches back for the ball, dribbles it and swats it back (away from Salah who is about to take it on goal) ALL while his hand nor his body ever touching the ground hence, there was NO fall for his hand to break. Again, penalty, IMO.
6.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 09:08:35
Oili agree on your assessment on Odegaard but not for onana though
He’s a yard away and trying to make a challenge for the ball by lunging forward . You physically can’t do that without using your arms . His hand is in front of his body and not to the side it’s also about head height not stretched out to make himself any bigger it has hit his hand but if that’s a pen then we need to start thinking about detaching limbs . If his arm was out stretched from his body I’d be fully on board with a pen decision I just don’t think at that distance and movement he’s doing he can have his hand anywhere else . So if that’s the case are we now going to start telling players not to challenge incase we give a pen away it’s just a bad decision IMO.
Not helped with the 10 city players in the refs face screaming pen .
If that’s on the halfway line he doesn’t give a free kick .
7.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 09:23:43
Understand your reasoning OR and no one can really complain too if a pen is given
Issue is
1) since we are talking about natural position, Onana’s was definitely more natural
2) since ‘mitigating’ factors (like player breaking a fall that was never considered until the Arsenal game), then Onana had a greater claim since he too has no choice but to have his hand in that position due to his motion and unless he wants to break something upon landing
3) so where is the consistency? I’m one game mitigating factors are taken into account and not in another. Is Odegaard’s body more precious than Onana that one’s breaking a fall is valid and not the other?
If the reasoning for odegaard’s non penalty was never sprouted, Onana’s penalty is not an issue. But since Odegaard’s non penalty now has a reasoning, a precedent is set and wouldn’t that be the new standard? Or are they indeed going to say, they are making it up as it comes along.
8.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 09:47:40
Oli we have seen all season that these penalties don’t get given because of ‘proximity’ meaning the ball has been hit at the hand from a very short distance.
We had one against Chelsea on the opening day when Diaz heads to ball towards goal and Jackson jumps out with his hands up around his ears, hits his hand to stop an effort on target. We were told that this wasn’t a penalty because of the ‘proximity’.
There have been numerous others all season long so why does the ‘proximity’ rule not apply when City need a goal?
9.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 09:47:58
I think u have hit nail on head there sgynwa, onanas is 100% a pen . if your arm is that high, above your shoulder, then u have no excuse if ball hits it even if it not deliberate. The killer is that odegaard deliberately controlled ball with his hand twice, as he panicked when he slipped and it wasn't given. If odegaards give I don't think onanas would be a conversation.
10.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 08:53:04
As far as I can see and know, both were clear cut penalties. One was not given and one was.
I'd like to hear Ed025's view on this .
{Ed025's Note - im just confused with the rules ArAy, Odegaad was like Meadowlark Lemon (you have to be of a certain age) the way he handled the ball and for me that was a stonewall one, Onana,s one seemed very harsh mate because he was so close and i dont see how it could be deemed deliberate, but this is just another instance where the rules are so ambiguous, now im not saying its cheating...oh yes i am actually..
11.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 10:21:25
It’s either gross incompetence which is above and beyond that which any reasonable person should expect, or it’s corruption. Which given the vast sums of money washing around City through their tinpot dictatorship owners alongside all of the other allegations of cheating surrounding them, is not beyond the realms of possibility, the question is would you put it past their owners and directors to make the odds more favourable for them?
If it’s incompetence then PGMOL isn’t fit for purpose, it needs to be wound up and Howard Webb nowhere near the game at any level along with the likes of Tierney.
{Ed025's Note - im with you VV..
12.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 10:22:20
I tend to judge these things as if they happened to Liverpool. If the Onana block was from Salah I would be screaming for a penalty. The Odegaard handball was a clear penalty and another obvious error in such a long list of errors by VAR. Watched the quarter finals of the cup a few weeks ago and VAR wasn't in use. What a pleasant breath of fresh air it was. Something is going to have to be done, it is ruining soccer.
13.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 10:35:22
Guys (and Ed25), I fully agree with your assessment on the Onana pen esp. with Onana being so close to the ball hence a bit tough to deem it as deliberate due to proximity. Also keep in mind that last season at the Emirates, Gabriel got a way with a stone wall pen as well when Jota played the ball over him for Diaz to run onto and his hand was even higher than Onana's was and a pen was not given. What was the reason they gave? Gabriel was deemed too close to the ball hence, could not have had time to get his arm away. Yeah, that "proximity" thing again. Im pretty sure Arteta did not see that incident either just like he did not see the Odegaard incident either.
Personally, you guys got to realise as well that this whole "proximity" stuff is SO vague and useless cos really, what is the official distance/ threshold for proximity to the ball? Nobody knows so it is up to the ref to decide hence you guessed it, inconsistency all over the place. For me, Onana's was a pen just like Jackson's was a pen, like Gabriel' and Odegaard. When your arm is that far away from your body and possibly denying a goalscoring opportunity, it's a pen. That should be the standard and the ONLY standard, IMO.
14.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 10:42:58
Oh and one last thing. @Sgwnwa, they ARE making it up as they go along. Look no further than the Burnley game where Tierney just disallows Gakpo's goal and for a foul that never happened and the VAR backed himm up. Or for Elliot's goal where the VAR invents an offside on Salah whereas he did not (deliberately? ) show the ref the part where Salah got pushed in an offside position. IMO, These guys are doing whatever they want cos they know the PGMOL and their allies in the media will provide cover for them.
15.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 13:16:34
Thanks Ed025. Yes I know who Meadowlark Lemon is; have even watched him and the Globetrotters perform in my ancient New York days.
It's clearly cheating. And by no means is it only against Liverpool. Every week we are seeing major level incidents that affect the outcome of games adversely. We've gone from an optimal situation of where a ref is hardly noticed during a game to a nightmarish scenario where more eyes are on the refs and VAR, rather the players or the game. It's a very sad and ultimately destructive situation. Fans and viewers are losing interest; the Golden Egg which is the EPL, will crack some day if this continues.
I think it's not working if the PGMOL is honorable, and it should be taken away from them due to incomptence and given to somebody with more competence. And if the PGMOL is acting dishonorably (being corrupt) then they should be put to book and pay the price according to the law. Players, managers and clubs don't get anything close to the wide berth these clowns are getting and it simply has to stop.
{Ed025's Note - I have cried “corruption” for a long time ArAy. The amount of money that is gambled on the outcome of football games is staggering mate. And we all know from other sports that where there is money you will find corruption..
16.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 15:44:27
Everyone is confused with the rule Ed25. Don't you think that the jersey that the players are wearing is more important than the rule itself? I mean if that handball happen to other teams, there is no way it will be given. Rodri's handball against your team couples of season ago is more blatant than last night yet it is not given.
{Ed025's Note - thats exactly the problem mfahmee, the inconsistency makes it seem very dodgy mate, what is given, why its given, and for what does VAR get involved with?...its just not good enough..
17.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 16:34:46
It’s just corrupt. The rule “ subjective “ was made in order to hide behind.
18.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 17:03:40
Either both Odegaard’s and Onana’s are pens or neither are. I don’t mind either way, it just needs applying evenly. Officials are clearly not applying rules evenly, which is creating confusion and questions over impartiality (which are fully justified given the amount of decisions that seem to directly or indirectly benefit City) . I’d rather make all handballs in the box a penalty, it’ll cause havoc but there will at least be consistency for everyone. Right now some teams get nothing, and others seem to get decisions just when they need them, it stinks of corruption.
19.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 17:41:33
We look at corruption in the Spanish and Italian leagues especially and think "No that couldn't happen here". Well I'm afraid money talks. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if in years to come out that many top PL teams, including us, greased a few palms to ensure we were viewed in a more positive light.
20.) 28 Dec 2023
28 Dec 2023 22:43:43
I’m with you Ed25 I just can’t believe that with the amount of money in the game corruption isn’t happening.
Referees are the lowest paid participants in the Premier League so if they are offered the chance to earn hundreds of thousands of pounds I just don’t believe that some of them wouldn’t accept it.
VAR has just made it much easier for them to control the outcome of matches as they can set up their excuses in real time.
Why does it take them so long to review simple decisions? Because they know the outcome they want and they are searching for a rule they can apply to justify it.
As an aside, I don’t think you can compare the Onana handball to the Odegaard one. They are totally different situations. Onana is trying to block a shot and if you look at anyone who throws themselves at a shot like that their arms ALWAYS go up. It’s a perfectly natural position and that ball was smashed at him from 4-5 yards away. Never a pen.
Odegaard’s was more reactionary. He slipped and realised the ball was going past him and Salah was in so his natural reaction was to stop the ball with his hand. He had time to react and he handled the ball to prevent a goal scoring opportunity. 100% pen.
It’s an obvious attempt on both occasions of the officials using the ambiguity of the rules to manipulate the result. I just don’t believe anyone could be that incompetent.
{Ed025's Note - Somethings rotten in the state of Denmark BP, its happened in other sports and i think you would have to be pretty naive to think it doesn,t happen in football mate..
21.) 29 Dec 2023
29 Dec 2023 02:23:08
Finally people are seeing exactly what is going on. When the word corruption was used after the Spurs game there was a bit of a divide. There's probably STILL a few people who think there's no corruption going on (somehow) but in time it'll show even more so. Mark my words, it won't ever change now, too many people are making too much money.
22.) 29 Dec 2023
29 Dec 2023 08:07:50
OP, that life goes on? That sometimes people make mistakes? That it’s time to let go of something that isn’t going to change?
23.) 29 Dec 2023
29 Dec 2023 07:59:17
Yeap. The refs do whatever they want in matches, their buddies in media then cover it for them, PMGOL invents new rules to explain the decisions and when they can’t, as in the Diaz offside goal, they apologise with no real consequences while someone goes home with a title and another gets relegated
If they can't raise the standard of refereeing, I did like real consequences on them at every level.
For the individual ref to be suspended for durations corresponding to their level of performance and at end of season, PMGOL may not be given the contract to ref next season. Yes I’m calling for competition in the ref department. Managers, players gets dropped or sold off or become free agents is they perform poorly, same should go to the ref. Owners can be booted, clubs can go into administration is they are managed poorly, same should be for PMGOL. They shouldn’t have monopoly over refereeing and if someone else better is in the market, they can come in to take over.
24.) 29 Dec 2023
29 Dec 2023 08:39:31
Dhfc has summed up the situation nicely IMO
There is no possible way that that type of challenge, that Onana did, can possibly be made without your arm being in that position, which is not intentionally making his body bigger, it's just the natural position that your arm will take.