09 Jul 2023 20:35:32
Ed’s maybe a slight tangent on “who are we going to sign next”

Gomez previously in my view was a top class player, what do you thinks gone wrong? Is it just injuries and playing time? And if you were klopp how would you approach getting him back to his previous best .

{Ed001's Note - both of those and confidence. He hasn't got the arrogance to just shrug off the poor performances, it bothers him. Then he doesn't get a run of games to get his performances back, so he dwells on it in his head imo. He is one of those that just needs to play regularly.}

1.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 08:59:19
He does seem mentally fragile, where one mistake leads to another. But it works the other way when he plays well he plays really well.
I do think for the sake of the club and himself that it’s best he moves on. If a half decent offer lands he should be allowed to move on and become a first choice or his career is at risk of dwindling away.

2.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 09:16:33
Thanks Ed, this sounds very plausible. I'd love to see him given a run in the cups and Europa this season. We all know there's a top class defender in there, was immense a few years back.

{Ed001's Note - fingers crossed this season he gets back to his best and avoids injury.}

3.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 09:28:05
Gomez started 21 games at centre back last season.

I’d like nothing more than to see him back to his old form but he’s going to really have to take his opportunities in pre season if he’s to leap frog the other 3.

4.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 09:48:15
Ed01, I think Gomez could be the way you have described cos he actually cares. The kid cares about playing well and actually giving his best for the team an the shirt. For me, that's not a bad thing at all. Now where such a good attitude and approach to sport or life in general could be a problem, is when caring about and dwelling on past poor perfs. too much starts to mess with your head and that could be where we are with Gomez.

I hope he can overcome this cos to me, his natural talent and raw ability to play the modern day CB role is undeniable. I hope he can put it together cos he is a top talent, ability-wise while by all accounts and interviews I have seen of him, a really great guy.

5.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 10:03:17
People forget that those spells we had when the defence was impenetrable in 18/ 19 and 19/ 20. The partnership was Van Dijk and Gomez. I've always liked Matip, but the runs of clean sheets we had were always with Goemz at the back. He was my favourite.

Injuries have impacted him big time and he's failed to get a run in the team since. But I refuse to believe that player isn't still there.

6.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 10:23:00
I'm a big joe gomez fan but I doubt he can't reclaim the form he had previously having watched him this season. He was brilliant v mam city at home but he was awful after that game, I really did think he would kick on again after that city game and go back to what he was.
In 1 way I'm loathe to sell him but if we got good offer and had a replacement I think I would take it.

7.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 10:39:54
Tom, Between 18/ 19 - 19/ 20 Gomez started 34 league games at CB and kept 18 clean sheets. Matip started 25 and kept 12 clean sheets. So both more or less a clean sheet every other game. Both had major injuries in that time. Gomez broke his ankle after a Burnley thug nailed him late, andvMatip did his ankle and did knee ligaments. There wasn't much to split them on the pitch but Gomez was just unlucky with injury rather than hurting himself standing up.

With that in mind, at the time i fully agreed Gomez was the player who should start because he was younger and full of potential. Plus Matip annoyed me a lot by sprinting forward with the ball and jogging back even if he lost it whereas Gomez was weak aerially but you couldn't question his effort. So I'm not denying Gomez was good back then as he was at least as good as Matip, but we shouldn't alter history by implying that we kept more clean sheets when Gomez played. It was pretty much the same as a ratio to games played, ever so slightly in Gomez favour. Your comment implied it was a huge chasm between them in terms of clean sheets which just isn't true.

Van Dijk was the constant. He was the reason we kept so many, and it didn't really matter who partnered him because he was that good. I would love Gomez to get back to that level. But I can't keep quiet and have people skew the facts to fit an agenda. I would also like to point out that Matip's last good season was 21/ 22 and Gomez's was 2 years further back than that in 19/ 20. Neither can really be relied on but Matip has a marginally better recent history. Both need replacing for me but I'd replace Gomez first because it's been longer since he was playing well. As much for the good of his own career though too. At 26 he shouldn't be 4th choice going into a season. Matip at 32 is at an age where he should be (albeit on higher wages) but I'd be replacing him next for sure. I don't really care that deeply what order we replace them in as long as we replace both. I really didn't mean to start a riot with my reply yesterday so apologies to Eds and posters alike.

8.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 10:54:28
Gomezs best season for me was when we won the league and if I’m not mistaken he played close to 30 games in the league that year and matip played about 10.

That season he was very good alongside vvd but the injury has clearly impacted him. It does appear his confidence has taken a hit. He’s still relatively young so hopefully can bounce back. Particularly with better protection in front of him (although no guarantee that he’ll get it with us playing the hybrid role) .

I agree we may ultimately have to replace both him and matip. I’d personally rather keep Gomez but I don’t think it’s crazy to want to keep matip instead. He’s been a good player for us imo.

Also MK, I didn’t think it was a riot. It’s a good discussion and a game of opinions. It would be boring on here if we all agreed. So keep it up ?.

9.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 11:11:24
MK, up until the end of the 19/ 20 season Gomez and VVD has started 25 games as a pairing. In that time; 17 clean sheets, 9 goals conceded, 23 wins, 2 draws and 0 losses.

10.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 11:59:31
That period was incredible Tom. I won't deny it. Gomez and Virgil aren't those same players anymore though in my opinion. Virgil is still a decent player, but miles off world class and Gomez has fallen to a point where he's barely putting in average performances on a consistent basis.

We conceded 4 goals on 4 separate occasions last season and Gomez started 3 of them at centre back, making glaring errors in those games particularly in terms of backing off players he should've engaged. I don't think he trusts his knee in a head on tackle personally. Errors like that stick long in the memory because it comes across as bottling tackles. I'm not letting Matip off the hook either. He played in the 3-0 loss to Wolves and was absolutely woeful letting a ball bounce 3 yards away from him in the 6 yard box for their opening goal; pure laziness to not just step across and deal with it.

Konate had some awful games too. He was bullied by Mbuemo and should've seen red against Brighton in 3-1 and 3-0 losses. Virgil was particularly awful against Bournemouth when he let Outtara just walk past him for their goal.

None of our CB's were good enough but I just felt Gomez was the worst on overall balance and his 70 minutes against Real Madrid ended any shred of hope left in our season essentially, which was a bitter pill to swallow as that was not a good Madrid team.

To reiterate I am only saying I'd replace Gomez first, not that Matip doesn't need replacing. From the moment i waded in on this debate i made it very clear we cannot be giving Matip a new contract. We absolutely must replace 1 of them though this summer if we want to be in a title challenge. Otherwise we're pinning our hopes on Konate staying fit and Virgil stepping up.

11.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 12:03:24
It’s definitely psychological with Joe. He’s resembling Lovren these days.

12.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 12:13:51
Thomas, did Gomez not start against Man City when we got tanked 4-0 and against Arsenal when we got beat 2-1? Two of our 3 defeats that season? Also I think your goals conceded is wrong too.

13.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 12:16:27
MK, I don't think Thomas is skewing anything. You said we shouldn't be 'implying that we kept more clean sheets when Gomez played' but then posted a stat stating Gomez started 34 league games at CB and kept 18 clean sheets. Matip started 25 and kept 12 clean sheets. Now to me, that clearly shows we kept more clean sheets with Gomez than Matip.
I don't recall Thomas saying anything about ratios etc. I agree with a fair amount of what you say, but on this occasion there is only one person skewing the stats to suit an agenda and it is yourself.
Gomez was first choice for a reason as shown by how often he was picked by Klopp. He was better than Matip hence he was chosen consistently. I think everyone thought he would really push on after that and cement his place not only in LFC's lineup, but also as England's number one.

14.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 12:27:34
Thomas in the 18/ 19 season Gomez played 16 games mate, 5 of those at right back.

15.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 12:29:16
His stats were completely wrong Irish. Gomez started 22 league games that season. 21 at CB and 1 at RB. In the games Gomez started we kept 12 clean sheets, and conceded 17 goals. I don't know where Tom's stats came from but in also in his defence his point was valid as Gomez and Virgil were a great partnership that season even if the numbers he found weren't correct. Tom did also omit the fact that in the games Matip started earlier in the season, we had Adrian in goal for most of them. The clean sheet run coincided with Alisson coming back into the team permanently after a 5-2 win against Everton.

16.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 12:35:21
Gomez wasn’t first choice in 19/ 20 season. He only played regularly from December onwards from memory and Matip, Liovren and Fabinho played CB before Klopp turned to Gomez due to injury to Matip and Lovren.

17.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 12:49:40
To be fair I didn't consider the Adrian in goal tax, conceding any less than 3 with him behind you should be classified as a clean sheet ?.

18.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 13:02:45
Edd001 I don't think it's arrogance that's needed for gomez. I think it's confidence and self believe. Once gomez makes a bad mistake his head goes. It's a shame he or klopp didn't bring forth a sports psychologist to help him with this. He has all the ability in the world to be a great centre back. Maybe that's why he flourishes at times at right back. The responsibility feels less for him. He's a terrific lad and footballer.

19.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 13:20:08
No worries Tom. It's nothing personal mate, probably just me nitpicking at the way you worded it, as the clean sheets "were always with Gomez at the back". If you'd said we had more clean sheets with him there I'd still argue he played more games with Alisson (and less with the Adrian tax - great phrase ?) but it would be factually correct at least. I just don't think it was fair to suggest we never had clean sheets with Matip when by game they had very similar records. Long and short is i think Gomez and Matip were similar level back then and Virgil just elevated who ever was next to him, because he was that good. All 3 of them are slipping now though and everyone seemingly agrees they need replacing, but simply disagree on the order of priority!

Stuie-boy, I don't think Tom needs your knight in white armour impression mate. Also please read what he said again because he never said Gomez had more clean sheets, he said when we did have clean sheets it was "always" Gomez. Gomez did have more but it is skewing the facts to twist that into Matip having none, which I don't necessarily believe was Tom's intention anyway. He's one of the best posters on here nowadays in my opinion so it was more likely just badly worded but i have a right to challenge it on a public forum. I never skewed any stats for the record. I posted the exact same stats for both players across the same time frame; stats Tom brought up first. Both sets of numbers were similar enough to suggest there was no discernible difference between them as partners to Virgil when you factor in context and other variables (such as the brillantly termed Adrian tax ?) . Me and Tom are sound so no need for you to be offended on his behalf when he can defend himself.

I do agree with you though Stuie about people expecting Gomez would kick on, myself included. I would like to say the knee injuries changed Virgil and Gomez but some may remember that before they happened we got tonked 7-2 by Villa with Virgil and Gomez playing. Guess who was in goal that day? Adrian. In my opinion the defensive difference in that time period was nothing to do with who played beyween Matip and Gomez, but everything to do with who played between Alisson and Adrian. I do think the knee injuries are a big factor though in what we're seeing today. Virgil has lost his pace and Gomez has lost his confidence in his own body. It's sad to see because you're correct, they should've kicked on and became one of the best partnerships in the Prem era. It just wasn't to be i guess.

20.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 13:30:51
Actually MK, Alisson came back in about 7 games earlier against United. The clean sheet run that followed the Everton game did coincide with Gomez's return to the 11.

21.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 14:15:11
Yeah I think how I worded it probably wasn't what I was trying to say, I have always been a fan of Matip. What I meant was if I was to pick my first choice XI from our most dominant period I would always have Gomez in it alongside VVD.

Unfortunately I also don't think Gomez will get the regular game time with us to be that player again, and it's too much of a risk too. I think he can find his best form but it would likely be elsewhere. Sidenote though, I think he could always be tried as a Kyle Walker type full back to allow Trent further up the pitch, I think he has the attributes to do it and the odd mistake out wide doesn't get punished as regularly.

22.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 14:24:38
Yeah he came in Reyrey and then after about 5 games got a red card ssuspension against Brighton. That's why i said the clean sheets started when he came back in "permanently" rather than just when he returned from injury. My point was Matip's games came mainly with Adrian or an Alisson who was not fully fit or match sharp (Adrian came back in for the Everton game as a one off for the Ali ban) . On the contrary Gomez's games that season mainly came with Alisson once he was back playing every week and up to speed with his fitness and match sharpness. It's no slight on Gomez, I just thought it was worth highlighting that the clean sheets started once the defence and goal keeper situation was stabilised. Alisson was back, Gomez and Virgil stayed fit together for a run of 20+ games, Robbo and Trent were fit all season anyway. Matip just didn't have that stability when he was in the team that season for about 10 games with a shaky keeper behind him.

I still think Gomez at that time was the best English CB and was the best partner for Virgil given his age, fitness and work rate advantages over Matip. But it was close between them and either way we are debating over whether Gomez was better 4 years ago. There is no doubt that Matip was better in the Quadruple chasing season only 1 year ago, and i'd argue he was better the season just gone too (but appreciate that's up for debate as neither were great) . I really don't care who goes first though mate. I just want to get Schuurs in and who ever is sacrificed to make that happen, it will be worth it. Also, thanks for your comment further up Rey. I do always try and start up debate on here when it's a but quiet but i didn't actually want this particular debate. Gomez is well liked among some sections of fans and that normally leads to accusations of hate and abuse if you post anything negative. Then you just end up defending yourself rather than talking about football. The debate did turn out quite enjoyable in the end but alas, I am about to start work now so it'll have to continue without me! Peace and love!

23.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 14:58:03
Hi MK, I think you have misunderstood - I have no intention of defending anyone and don't particularly appreciate your over-dramatic response about me being offended just because someone is choosing to call you out on your never ending encyclopedia of stats.
You constantly throw numbers around yet can't coherently have a discussion with somebody who challenges your methodology and as a result revert to a somewhat childish retort. There is more to sport than stats and numbers despite what you may think.

24.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 15:40:47
Stuie, My reply to you wasn't childish, it was banter (which you must realise you green-lighted when you had a cheeky dig at me first) . Come on mate. I literally agreed with the actual point you made in your post. You don't have to read or reply to my posts though if it bothers you that i go into detail and sometimes choose to back up my points with stats. I could understand if i were using complex stats like xG against or duel success % but I just corrected somebody elses use of clean sheets, games played and goals conceded. They are fundamental stats that have been around for ages so i see no issue with me or Tom bringing them up. I used the same stats from the same time period, presented in the same format for both players purely to prove it wasn't "always" Gomez when we kept clean sheets. I don't understand how that is skewing anything. I didn't use them to say either player was better or worse, i just posted hard core facts and left them there for others to decide on. If you think sharing the truth constitutes to having an agenda, then fine. Just ignore me in future. I'm not on here to jump on band wagons, pass off Editor opinions as my own, or sugar coat my thoughts incase someone doesn't like it. So if you don't mind i will continue to post my original thoughts in my own personal writing style. Thank you and goodnight. What a waste of a coffee break ??‍♂️.

25.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 15:49:07
Sorry Tom, missed your reply in amongst the posts telling me to become a different person.

To be fair if Gomez could play any position now i would say it's right back in the "Walker" mould. If that were trialled for a period i think it could work.

26.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 16:07:59
It’s been a day and a half of Gomez and Matip “banter” Some coffee break ?.

27.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 16:32:51
Sorry to arrive late to the party.
there's a lot of talk about Liverpools centre backs and rightly so. But its a tough situation with the club having so many ‘first choice’ centre backs, but all at different stages of their career and all of them dealing with one issue or another.
I completely agree that VD and Gomez were the first choice pairing, for me at least as you had the best defender in the world shepherding a brilliant young talent, even their attributes dovetailed with one another.
The crap reality though is that in the last 3/ 4 years, everything has changed. Van Dijk isn't the best defender in The world and Gomez isn't an up and coming youngster with a great deal of potential.
For me the biggest conundrum is VD, as he commands a starting place, the armband if Hendo is out and a huge wage. For someone who not only dropped a level or two in terms of quality but his effort looks like its on the wane too this is unsustainable.
If I knew the answer to all this then I would share it but for me, I would try to move forward with Konate and Gomez in defence, let's see if Konate can't become a dominant centre half and Gomez seal a starting berth alongside.

28.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 16:33:55
I don't do Sundays, Irish. Sunday is the lords day and I'll be dammed if I'm going to disrespect Robbie Fowler! Only had one job today and it's done already so guess I'm back in the fight again!

29.) 10 Jul 2023
10 Jul 2023 18:00:26
Blimey, so much stats in here. Liked the discussion though.

30.) 11 Jul 2023
11 Jul 2023 08:02:23
Is Square Tomato still about, he did say Gomez was having issuess. hopefully all ok now and he will be back to his best.