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17 Nov 2019 17:21:23
Ed001, as a group we've discussed previously at how lost we look without Firmino in that front 3. We've previously used Salah, Origi and Mane up top but they don't play the game in the same way.

My question is do you think during the busy winter period Ox could play the role at times when Firmino needs to be rested?

He seems to have recently improved his finishing, can find a pass, has a good turn of pace and retains the ball well. I'm not as well versed in football as some though and could be mistaken but just wanted your opinion!

IronDan

{Ed001's Note - no, it is not the way he plays at all.}


1.) 17 Nov 2019 17:36:50
Thanks Ed, I confess to not having enough knowledge to understand the nuances each position in our setup.

{Ed001's Note - I can see what your thinking, but I just can't see it suiting him. Needs someone who is used to holding the ball up.}


2.) 17 Nov 2019 18:18:31
We don't look lost without Firmino. We won number 6 without him. Mane is by far the main man, without Mane we would not have won the cl and we would have a lot less points over the last 12 months. When Firmino plays well we do look a better team but his good games are not frequent enough. I know goals are not what he is known for but he really does need to improve his finishing, Trent and Mane are creating numerous chances that Firmino is squadering.

When there is 10 minutes left in a tight match which players do you look to win us a game? Firmino is not near the top of the list.

List of most important players

VVD
Mane
Fabs
Allison
Salah
Robbo
Trent
Firmino.


3.) 17 Nov 2019 19:25:16
The problem is when one of the front 3 is missing, we rotate the other 2 and all the system is messed up.
Say if Firmino is missing, we should just put origi upfront. Instead we move Salah through the middle, Mane swaps sides, and Divok is left out wide looking like a lost man.
When one is missing it then feels like they're all missing.

{Ed002's Note - Once Klopp goes maybe the new coach will fix this problem for you.}


4.) 17 Nov 2019 19:26:05
"We won number 6 without him"

What are you talking about? Firmino played nearly 60 minutes in the final?

Firmino is the embodiment of this Liverpool team, he adds so much to our game that probably only Salah and VVD match ho, for influence.

It amazes me how many Liverpool fans still don't see how important he is to the way we play.


5.) 17 Nov 2019 19:41:16
Sorry Mark but pointing to one game against purs does not prove your point. Our system does not work without Firmino.

I see no need to list an order of importance. Simply our team is weaker without any of those players in our starting lineup.


6.) 17 Nov 2019 20:00:57
What about the Barcelona home game? He didn't touch the ball in the final.

Red Dawn are you trying to tell me Firmino is more important than Mane? Do me a favour. There is no comparison, Mane is a match winner and a points getter. Firmino is a good player but we have many better players.


7.) 17 Nov 2019 20:14:35
Mark, is Firmino in our best 11? If so, he is as important as any other member of our best 11.


8.) 17 Nov 2019 20:48:39
Mark sorry BUT I ain't buying your argument regarding Bobbie. Even those in the media this season have now caught up with how important and dare I say, indispensable Bobbie is and ALWAYS has been for us. Did you hear how Jose, Keane and Souness were gushing about him after the City game? I also heard from Ed01 here where he stated that Pep loves Bpobbie and wishes he had him at City cos he does all the things that Aguero and Jesus can't and won't do. Also for good measure without Bobbie, there is NO Mane or Salah cos he creates space for them to flourish due to his immense repertoire and selflessness. Even Jose and Kompany said so or are they mugs too?

You using isolated situations or games where Bobbie either did not play (both Bar ca games) or the final vs Spurs (Where he was clearly NOT fit to play at full pelt) is a sign that your argument is pretty weak on the merits, IMO. Isolated incidents are outliers. YOu have to consider Bobbie's whole body of work over time.

Oh and by the way, we NEVER won no. 6 w/ o Bobbie. Why? Had he not come off the bench with one good eye, and scored the 3rd goal vs PSG, we don't even get a chance to get out of the group vs Napoli. Bobbie IS the Klopp system n Klopp has said so many times BUT of course, you know more about his system than the man himself.


9.) 17 Nov 2019 20:54:10
fair enough Ghost. We are a great team. I just like to fight Mane's corner on this forum as at times it becomes a total Firmino love in that is OTT. Last year Firmino was poor and we had a great season.

Firmino will have a really good game soon and there will be 20 posts about how he is our most important player, the glue etc. Meanwhile Mane wins us the points gets the goals and he is hardly mentioned by posters on here.


10.) 17 Nov 2019 21:02:59
Mark no offence, but you are wrong on a biblical scale, he's the lynchpin that holds the whole tactic of Klopps together, I wouldn't want to loose any of the front three but Mane and Salah are way easier to replace than Bobby.


11.) 17 Nov 2019 21:04:16
Mark like you, I am a huge Mane fan and to me, he is the best forward in the PL right now, IMO. Even Sterling is not a patch on him regardless of how much the English media want to make him the heir-apparent to Messi. I mean, even Messi voted for Sadio for FIFA player Of the Year this season. Need I say more?

However, that does not mean Mane is not indispensable to us, the same way as Bobbie is. Mane is equally indispensable BUT in a different way. Same goes for Salah but again, in a diff. way. Both guys finish off all the ground work that Bobbie already laid, that's it. For me, why should it be an "either/ or" issue if we can have it all, man?


12.) 17 Nov 2019 21:06:10
Mane, Salah - amazing.
Bobby is the player that brings it all together.


13.) 17 Nov 2019 21:07:50
For the record I don't necessarily see Firmino as our best player, right now that title clearly belongs to Mane.

My point was Klopp's best system has Firmino a the centre of it, can we tweak the system and still win without him? Yes, but on our best day, playing OUR system Firmino is vital and I just wondered whether Ox could, under certain conditions, play the same role so we wouldn't have to change our system.

The question was never to belittle anyone else's contributions to the team and Mark, people's appreciation of Bobby doesn't mean Mane (or any of other player) is appreciated any less.


14.) 17 Nov 2019 21:15:24
Redwolf the PSG game was our first game? If we had to win Red Star away etc I am sure we would have. Bobby was at LFC before Mane he played with Courts, Lallana etc and didn't look anywhere near as effective.

I am not saying Firmino isn't important but I am saying 100% Mane is the main man and everyone of the people you mention above all say Mane is Liverpool's main man in terms of the front 3. Look at the final 2 years ago v Madrid, Salah went off, Firmino was no where (as in all our finals) and Mane was brilliant.


15.) 17 Nov 2019 21:33:58
Iron I understand your point but on this forum at times it becomes a Firmino love in even when its not deserved. I think Mane deserves more praise. As did salah when he was the main man.

Redwolf your latest post I can fully agree with, we can have it all and long may it continue. I do really admire Bobby's attitude on the pitch, it can really set the tone for the other players.

Drogie - maybe live certain things look different. Still haven't got to a game this season. The better we do the more expensive the tickets.


16.) 17 Nov 2019 22:05:24
Fully get the manè love my personal favourite player at the minute he is amazing super star on the pitch humble human being off the pitch a true gent he is one member of a great team the best player on the pitch is always the player wearing a liverpool shirt.


17.) 17 Nov 2019 22:10:40
Mark, we love Bobbie, Salah, and Mane equally, IMO but for diff. reasons. You mentioned how Bobbie was stifled after Salah went off vs Madrid BUT if you are honest, you would remember that that season, Mo was our best player by a mile even tho, Bobbie was a beast that season as well (27 goals in all comps. ) and Mane was at 20 in all comps. How many did Salah score that season? Oh yeah, 44 goals so of course our we would struggle without him. Either way, I over all our players equally for what they bring to the table BUT regarding the attack, Mane may be our best forward BUT without the Bobbie Dazzler being the glue that keeps our whole system together, Mane would not be as effective as he is and neither would Salah.


18.) 17 Nov 2019 22:36:26
the good thing is that when 1 or 2 are having bad days the other all ways steps up. But all 3 are so different and that's what makes them such a great unit. Mane works so hard up and down getting back to help Robbo out and Bobby never stops pressing from the front but Salah never stop making runs all game with his thirst for goals must be so hard work for defenders playing against them. so to pick one out is just each persons opinions, like Mars snickers or twix. Me I think Bobby would be harder to replace I mean we all ready have Salah replacement coming in the summer Mbappé.


19.) 17 Nov 2019 22:38:34
Firmino played with Couts etc. and didn’t look as effective Mark? No he didn’t because Couts, Lallana etc. don’t play the way Salah and Mane play.
A counter argument to that would be that Salah played at Chelsea, Fiorentina and Sampdoria but didn’t look anything like as effective. Mane played at Southampton but was nowhere near the player his is now.
They are a unit. Lose one and it’s not as effective. I think the point people are trying to get across to you is Bobby is almost unique in what he does for the team. There are not many players like him so he is virtually impossible to replace.
You could replace Salah or Mane with a number of pacy wingers out there and then adapt their game to our system (not easy as they are great players but possible, Sancho, Coman, Promes, Dembele, Neres, Gnabry, Sane, Sterling although not all attainable I know but I think could be successful in our system) . With Bobby it’s much more difficult because finding a player with the intelligence, skills, selflessness, engine, dedication and mindset that he has is nigh on impossible. I can’t think of one.
All three are important, great players and we could argue all day about who is better but Bobby just has a unique skill set that would be more difficult to replace.


20.) 17 Nov 2019 23:18:48
Theres no ‘main man’. We’re a team that is bigger than the sum of its parts. Why try and put one player above another?


21.) 18 Nov 2019 13:53:38
Good read that gents and To be honest this whole debate shows what a good place we are in. We are now arguing over who is our best superstar and giving valid points for each. Remember the days when we would be arguing over hpw terrible Balotelli, Lambert and Borini were as our front 3.


22.) 18 Nov 2019 14:01:36
Agreed Virgil - it’s like picking a favourite child. not very productive when all three are so awesome!

The original question is fair though, what to do if Firmino isn’t available? My own view is we don’t have anyone who can replicate him in the squad so why try?

I’d be playing Mane through the middle and Origi out on the left. He may not be the best wing ever but he’s been very productive cutting inside, and with Robbo on the overlap he doesn’t need to be. Mane through the middle also offers a threat and something different to Firmino.

Origi at CF is a good strategy mostly at the death IMO (and particularly when we’re chasing goals) as he has more presence in the box than Firmino, and isn’t required to play the playmaker role at that stage of the match.


23.) 19 Nov 2019 04:59:24
Hi ed001 am I correct in saying that Lallana would be Klopp's choice from our 7 centre mids to play the Firmino role should push come to shove? Followed by Wijnaldum and Milner in that order?

{Ed001's Note - I have no idea because he would prefer not to play a central mid there.}


 

 

 

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01 Aug 2019 16:40:22
Why would we need to replace someone who was out on loan last season?

IronDan

 

 

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13 Jun 2019 17:45:57
I'm not sure how people struggle with this so much. We messed around Lyon on price because of his injury. Here we are now a year later, he's had an up and down year (probably because of the collapsed move, which happened after he'd already done his interview! ), he's got one year left on his contract so presumably the club now think they can get him a more realistic price given his "issues".

IronDan

 

 

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06 Jun 2019 22:36:24
Ed002 you've mentioned that perhaps Liverpool would look to bring in an attacking midfielder so presumably Fernandes would fit that role. As a follow up though, some people mentioned if Fekir had been brought in he could have covered Firminos "false 9" position, do you know if Fernandes is capable of the same?

IronDan

{Ed002's Note - Fernandes is not a forward, so no. Fekir certainly could provide that cover.}


 

 

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05 Jun 2019 14:29:34
Ed001 do you think he would be a decent backup option for Alisson or should we be looking elsewhere? Anyone you think we could bring in if Migs were to leave?

IronDan

{Ed001's Note - he is alright, but I would have worries about any player that chooses to miss out on his nation's only ever appearance at the confederation championships to play a couple of Prem games. Clearly money is more important to him than the chance to make history.}


 

 

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22 May 2019 15:52:35
I agree Klopping in the sense that this is a rumours website and most of us are more than happy for a little gossip, but "so aggressive" seems a little dramatic don't you think?

IronDan

 

 

 

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17 Nov 2019 21:07:50
For the record I don't necessarily see Firmino as our best player, right now that title clearly belongs to Mane.

My point was Klopp's best system has Firmino a the centre of it, can we tweak the system and still win without him? Yes, but on our best day, playing OUR system Firmino is vital and I just wondered whether Ox could, under certain conditions, play the same role so we wouldn't have to change our system.

The question was never to belittle anyone else's contributions to the team and Mark, people's appreciation of Bobby doesn't mean Mane (or any of other player) is appreciated any less.

IronDan

 

 

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17 Nov 2019 17:36:50
Thanks Ed, I confess to not having enough knowledge to understand the nuances each position in our setup.

IronDan

{Ed001's Note - I can see what your thinking, but I just can't see it suiting him. Needs someone who is used to holding the ball up.}


 

 

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07 Nov 2019 13:23:19
A lot of hyperboles here.

Ederson is not a poor keeper but there is a reason Alisson is number one for Brazil, I would say Ederson is better with his feet but Alisson isn't exactly poor in that department and is superior in all other departments.

IronDan

 

 

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24 Aug 2019 19:23:19
I agree Ed, mine comment was aimed solely at the OPs idea of having a unified window.

IronDan

 

 

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24 Aug 2019 17:01:36
The only possible unified transfer window is having none at all. Too much disparity in when others league's seasons starts and stops.

IronDan

{Ed001's Note - so do that then. There is no real need to have a window.}