07 Dec 2020 21:18:14
I thought this was interesting on BLM and why the booing: fb.watch/2e9K7tGxZT/

I think the BLM movement has been massively hindered by the behaviour of some of its supporters and an excuse for violence in a lot of cases. Why can't people just be nice decent human beings? It makes me sad that the world can't just accept people of all races etc. I think it's time for taking the knee to stop personally as the message has been diluted and doesn't really mean anything.

1.) 07 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 22:09:44
Both sides represent none issues. Sub-section of Millwall fans acting like racist dimwits - been there, seen it all.
The knee taking is meaningless and serves nothing in the fight for equality and to stop rasicm. The ceremony (and horrible BLM organisation) has taken over from any advance in the fight it is meant to assist in.
A complete and utter none issue.

{Ed033's Note - Right, so psychological warfare is being used against us by government agencies and the mainstream media?

2.) 07 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 22:13:27
I think the Liverpool FC movement has been massively hindered by the behaviour of some of its supporters and an excuse for violence in a lot of cases. The same goes for Football.

The general principle behind BLM is that black lives matter. It's that's simple. It's Anti-Racist and that's why the players kneel in solidarity. It's still a huge issue in the game and one I'm proud to see the players address publicly.

3.) 07 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 22:28:31
Millwall have had some of the worst supporters in England for decades yet we are supposed to believe this was not racist in nature? Do me a favour. Across the country players took a knee and were not booed except at Millwall, they do not represent the views of the regular working man or women, they are the minority!

4.) 07 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 22:34:33
Millwall booed because they are a pack of racists. It's not that they are against political messaging, that's just a smoke screen. When you have the PM using phrases like "Pikanini's with watermelon smiles", what do you expect?

Racism has and will always exist, unfortunately, the rise of right wing political leaders has made it acceptable now to wear your racism with pride once again. When the Donald tells the Proud boys to stand down and stand by, the message is crystal clear: it's fine to hate people based on the colour of their skin or where they are from.
If we allow this to continue it will only divide people more and more and those with lots to gain from that division just sit back and laugh.

Hats off to the fans at Anfield who applauded during the taking of the knee. We are better than miseducated Millwall thugs and it makes me proud to be a scouser.

5.) 07 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 22:51:45
Eamon the general principle SHOULD BE Black Lives Matter. It’s being used for a lot of other agendas now because people are people. Should we just ignore that agenda because the theme is good? Maybe we should acknowledge all of the people spouting all lives matter too? That message is good, yet it’s easy to see another agenda behind that one too.

It’s irresponsible to just assume.

6.) 07 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 23:03:01
Oh no it's all gone political, yes we get it you're all very 'woke' congratulations. Pretty soon u can take all the vaccines you're told to and bend the knee for anything u like. But for now people let's get back to the football.

7.) 07 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 23:32:00
It's a few seconds to remind us there is still injustice in the world.

8.) 08 Dec 2020
07 Dec 2020 23:37:15
always a red

Nothing political about it.

It is about showing support for your fellow human.

Regarding your pointless vaccine comment the Conspiracy site is waiting for you bud.

9.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 00:05:30
Always a red, Define woke. It's a stupid term used by people to continue a culture war that they don't even realise they're in. There is no woke, or non woke, just some people who care about others and are willing to consider their views, and there's people who are manipulated into thinking it's a battles between radical lefty snowflakes and common sense.

10.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 06:54:36
I think we can all agree that the minority of millwall fans are idiots. Racism will always exist unfortunately. I think our supporters showed class applauding it but I still think the knee should now stop.

11.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 07:39:50
How is the BLM movement horrible? Or taking the knee pointless? You need to get your head out of the sand and actually read about the changes that have cone about directly as a result of the BLM movement, particularly in America. The ignorance of those wanting to just brush it under the carpet because they’re not personally affected by such injustices is sad - I how they continue to take the knee for as long as it takes to highlight, and change, the inherently unfair society of which we are a part of. Never thought I’d see Liverpool fans agreeing with the moronic racists that support Millwall but I guess it shows the BLM movement still has a long way to go.

12.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 10:43:01
Spot on, Seano. A lot of people run their mouths about the BLM movement yet have no idea how and why it came about. I lived in the States when the BLM movement sprang up and I would gladly explain it BUT I won't. Why? It is not my job to educate the willing bystander. With all the info we have at our finger tips, one is only allowed to claim ignorance once.

People say BLM is political. And the Civil Rights Movement in the 60's were not? In order to effect change in the society, you have to do it by legislation hence, voting and politics. Shocking, I know. And for the record, BLM was very instrumental in kicking Dump out of the WH in the last election cos they used their power to effect change in the halls of congress, city counsels and of course, the White House.

Oh and to those saying and supporting the "All Lives Matter" rhetoric, you are speaking from a position of abject ignorance of that statement so again, go educate yourself about what that means. And I will leave you with this quote,


"When Black Live Matter, only then will All Lives Matter".


- Trent Alexander-Arnold.

13.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 11:24:19
The issue is the statement Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with the group that was founded in the US. Anybody with half a brain can agree with the statement that BLM (can you also agree with the statement ALM? or is that not woke enough? ), however I encourage anybody who hasn't done so to visit the website of the BLM group and read what it is their movement is trying to achieve.

They hold extremist, far-left views and I understand why people link the statement to the group and take offence at being lambasted with "woke", virtue signalling politics, being told what to think, believe and support or be branded a racist bigot.

They hold extremist views in the same way a % of Millwall fans do, however these being far-right views, which have no place in society and thankfully its a very small % of people who feel this way.

The point being its two extreme, opposing ends of the political spectrum clashing. What do people expect to happen?

{Ed001's Note - again another one who doesn't get it. The players taking a knee is not a BLM thing. It is nothing to do with the politics of BLM. So it is not two opposing ends of the political spectrum clashing. It is bigots abusing players out of ignorance.}

14.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 11:38:01
Ed001, I said at the beginning of the response that the statement BLM has nothing to do with the group, however when you watch broadcasts on Sky etc. BLM is plastered all over the screen at any point they can get away with it, pundits were initially wearing badges before a handful of them stopped wearing them in fear it was promoting them supporting the movement - which is a far left, extremist group.

This lead to people associating the two with each other, then see players and officials taking a knee and link it all together as support for the movement. Like everything, comes down to people not being educated. Which goes for both sides, not just those on the right.

To dismiss it as having nothing to do with the politics of the situation however I see as surprising, I'd suggest it's everything to do with political leanings and beliefs and people being told they're wrong and called bigots for not agreeing with what they're told to believe and joining in with the virtue signalling.

{Ed001's Note - If people are too ignorant to listen when the players have repeatedly said why they are taking a knee, then it is because they don't want to hear. It is far easier to just assume it is about politics because that suits their agenda. They are being called bigots because they are showing with their actions and words that they are.

The very fact you think it is 'virtue signalling' to disagree with the booing of players taking the knee says it all to be honest.}

15.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 12:02:03
Ed001, I didn't say it was virtue signalling to disagree with the booing, I said the taking a knee was virtue signalling. However, if you're supportive of an individuals right to knee then you should also support an individuals right to boo, regardless of if you agree or disagree with either side.

& If taking a knee isn't virtue signalling then what is it? I've yet to see anything that quantifiably measures any positive affect of tackling racial discrimination by individuals deciding to take a knee and post black squares on social media platforms.

Individuals engage in it because it makes them feel like they are part of the solution, without knowing what solution is being worked to achieve.

I agree with you that it's ignorance and that's the biggest issue with anything, people don't understand what they think/ believe, pick a side and become ideologically possessed with that affiliation and cease to think for or educate themselves.

{Ed001's Note - that is so not what they are doing. That is offensive to suggest they are merely making a token gesture. They are making a point and starting a conversation, which quite clearly is having an effect or we wouldn't be discussing it now would we?

And why should I support an individual's right to boo something out of ignorance or bigotry? This bull**** free speech crap is utter nonsense. It is an easy get out for bigots to use to excuse their vileness. It is amazing the number of people who complain about their racist or other vile posts getting deleted on here and claiming they have a right to free speech. Utter bollox. Just because you think what you want to think or express what you want to express does not mean I have to be supportive of your right to express something that is trying to stop others from expressing their own beliefs. Because that was what the boos were doing. They were not 'freedom of expression', they were trying to stop other people from expressing their beliefs. To hide that behind freedom of speech is false.}

16.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 12:30:07
Ed001, maybe it is offensive to suggest that and that isn't my intention, however is it not fair to suggest that the buck doesn't just stop there? Change is a difficult thing to come about and I fear that the taking a knee doesn't cut it as an action for change and again, is nothing more than a gesture of good will, inclusive of wanting to look good and involved themselves.

I don't agree with the booing, but in the same breath how can I support only one side expressing their views? Booing isn't an action, isn't a call to action, its a form of speech. It's an absolute blessing that we're able to express ourselves freely and that should be upheld regardless of if individuals like/ dislike, agree/ disagree.

They were counter-protesting. They were not physically stopping anybody from doing anything. They were expressing their own beliefs, just as the players on the pitch were doing. I don't think it's a case of hiding behind anything, I think it's individuals using their individual rights to be able to project their opinions and feelings.

I agree that you don't have to post anything you don't want to on this webpage, if you deem it to be racist or violate policy then as a private domain then you don't have to post. You also don't have to be supportive of anybody's beliefs. However I'm sure there are individuals who aren't supportive of your views either, which further lends itself to the importance of all individuals being able to express themselves, no matter how you, I, or anybody else feels about it.

{Ed001's Note - who are you to say the players stop there? Do you know that for a fact none of them has any other involvement in trying to make change happen? I think you will find that Trent Alexander-Arnold certainly does more, I am sure quite a few others do. You sound like those who can be found on every single social media thread talking about what Rashford has done. There are always those accusing him of simply doing it for PR.

Booing is not a form of speech, it is a way of blocking speech. There is a huge difference. It is not about expressing their views, it is about shouting down other views. The boo is used to cover over another's speech. It is anti-speech. As such it is perfectly reasonable to be against it being used.

I am sorry but your final paragraph is flawed. That says we should be ok with the likes of Hitler and his hate speeches because it is just him expressing himself. That is just nonsense. That is never ok.}

17.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 13:21:57
For me this isn't about freedom of speech or something similar. It is about a group of people, in this case professional football players wanting equal chances for everyone, no matter what race they belong to and another group of people opposing this, because they feel superior towards other races. I also don't get this keep politics out of football reaction. Politics is a way to organise our society, we're all part of this society, including football players, everything we do, follow the rules, break the rules even doing nothing is politics and our way to create a society that we want to live in.

18.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 13:25:56
Ed001, that's my point. We don't know about what goes on, which makes the taking a knee essentially a show. Do you not think it would be far more productive to hear about what TAA is doing within communities and behind the scenes? Would that not maybe inspire to want others to get involved as well and work towards actual change rather than thinking gestures and social media posts is enough?

I hope the above point clears up the Rashford point you assumed about me is way off of the mark.

What if they started screaming all lives matter instead when they kneeled? Would that be okay because it's not booing?

As for the Hitler point, I didn't say anybody had to be okay with the content of what an individual was saying, I'm saying that they have to be okay with their ability to say it, regardless of if they agree or not. Once an individual has spoken we can judge them, rather than stop them from saying anything at all, otherwise we end up with serious problems, such as Hitler.

If Hitler were around in todays society, would you be comfortable with him deciding what you and I were free to say to each other based on if he agreed or not? Or do you think it's better we can openly have an interesting discussion and he could choose to agree/ disagree with the content of what we had to say, but ultimately we'd both still be free to say as we please?

{Ed001's Note - I wasn't assuming you were saying the same as those having a go at Rashford, I was saying you are making the same point they are. If the players got more publicity for what they do behind the scenes we would have people like you saying they are publicity seeking and doing if for effect. They can't win. They are creating a conversation, that should be seen as a good thing, even if it is the only thing this achieves.

Why would they scream that? Just making up some kind of nonsense to say is not a valid discussion point. It is just irrelevant.

Nobody is stopping the discussion, otherwise the posts would just be deleted. So what exactly is your point? They are being judged on what they say and found to be deluding themselves into believing they are not racist or bigoted as their own words show they are. So what exactly is the point you are trying to make?}

19.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 14:19:00
Ed001, I apologise if that wasn't the case, I wanted to make aware that I think it's a positive discussing what individuals are doing off of their own accord to make actual positive differences within communities and hopefully influencing others to do the same. What did clapping for the NHS achieve? I see taking a knee the in the same bracket, appearing to be doing good but in reality a gesture of insignificance beyond the visual.

Would you still take issue with the voicing of displeasure if it were done through speech and not through booing? You seem to take issue with the booing as much as their beliefs, to which I'm trying to say if they did it through another form of expression would that be a more acceptable way for them to express themselves?

You implied you were against Hitler being able to give speeches because they're filled with what you deem as hate (to which I agree it is hateful speech. ) My point is, who decides what and what isn't hate speech? What you deem hateful might be significantly different to what I deem hateful, so who sets the boundaries? If it was Hitler setting the boundaries of what people can and can not say, it would be extremely worrying, hence why I'm suggesting people should be able to express themselves freely (excluding call to action) and why I don't have an issue with anybody taking the knee or booing, regardless of if I personally think they're right or wrong.

{Ed001's Note - clapping for the NHS was only meant to be a thank you and to let them know that people were grateful for all they were doing. Surely that was achieved? You seem to think that these things have to achieve quantifiable results, rather than just being one step on a bloody long road. Racism has existed since mankind began, it is not going to be ended in our lifetime's no matter what footballers do. At least they are doing something, for years they have been criticised for doing nothing while earning huge sums. Now you are criticising them for doing something because you have decided it is insignificant. If it makes a difference to even one person then it is not insignificant. Good on them. I just don't understand what you expect from them? They are finally taking a stand (well knee) for something they believe in, they are starting a conversation about it. Each positive step should be applauded, not derided because it hasn't achieved what you think it should.

Would I still take issue? You can read the posts to see the answer. It is a pointless question. The issue is that those booing don't even have a clue what they are actually booing. If they were telling people what they objected to, then it could be pointed out that it is nothing to do with anything they are complaining about.

Your final sentence is just describing Twatter and that is not a world I want to live in. You might think that is great but no thanks, not for me. People simply can't be trusted with freedom as they abuse it. Yes, there is potentially a problem with too little freedom coming as a result, but that is why we have laws to protect people and the chance to vote for those whose beliefs match our own to create those laws. Whether it works or not is a different matter and utterly unrelated to this subject of whether a racist booing someone showing support for anti-racism is acceptable or not.}

20.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 15:00:37
Ed001, don't NHS deserve more than everyone patting themselves on the back thinking they've done such a great thing by applauding? Hence my point of its just signalling. Why don't we go about initiating actual change? (Improved pay, less working hours etc) . Is it because people don't actually care enough but want to appear like they do to others? I think that could be true for a lot of people.

I don't expect anything from them other than to do their job and play football. If they want to use their platform to promote their beliefs and ideas that's great, but my point from the beginning is if everybody just kneeled, would it achieve anything? You said it yourself, racism has been around from the dawn of time and will continue to be, so what can we do to tackle this. Kneeling might be a start, but thinking that's enough is itself part of the problem. If people want change, they have to be committed in time and effort, not just through forms of visual signals.

I agree that some people booing don't understand what they're actually booing, in the same way that some people kneeling don't understand why they're actually kneeling. These are complex issues that require education and time and effort and people unfortunately aren't willing to do that.

I don't think it's great myself (I don't have Twitter) but I think it's necessity. As much as people abuse freedom, they also abuse power which leads too far worse consequences - all we have to do is look at places like China and NK as an example.

{Ed001's Note - yes but that is a separate issue from people taking time out of their day to thank them for what they have done.

Nobody has said or has suggested it is enough. It is the start of a conversation. That's it. You have to start somewhere.

I very much doubt that a single player or official is not aware of why they are kneeling, they are fully aware of what it is about.

Yes and those places only change by people making steps to change them, such as taking a knee to start the ball rolling. Revolution doesn't begin on its own, it is a long, slow process. Sometimes it doesn't even take a revolution. For instance the UAE, which is often accused of all sorts, but they have been moving over to a freer and more accepting society for a long time. They are just doing it gradually through legal change. It is a step by step process, but it is there for all to see if they bothered to look. There is no necessity for twitter at all, quite the opposite. There are plenty of places for morons to spout their mouths off without giving them a global platform to do so.}

21.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 15:22:27
Ed001, I agree. I just hope that people don't stop at the applause and think the job is done. As you've outlined, change and reform is a long process that takes time and energy and it something that needs to be stuck at to yield results.

I would doubt it too, however I think in the overall context its important to be aware that individuals don't always understand what it is they're doing, why they're doing it, or what it means. A lot of people don't even understand why they think they way they think or believe the things they do.

I agree, however I think the UAE is different in the sense of they're working on amending laws that are in legislature to bring about needed change, rather than a societal/ cultural change that is a lot more difficult to navigate and more abstract, as everyone thinks and believes different things rather than being pro or anti a certain law.

May I add that I've enjoyed this and found it refreshing to be able to discuss sensitive topics and actually have a discussion with someone rather than some sort of shouting/ insults match, the likes of which that take place on twitter instead of actual conversation.

{Ed001's Note - unfortunately, while everyone agrees nurses need better pay, for example, there are very few people in a position to actually go beyond applause, especially at the moment. That is why it is important that those that are in a position to do more, such as footballers, do keep making their point.

Footballers at every club are being educated on what is going on mate. They had it all explained at length and then it was voted on last season. This season they are continuing with efforts to educate them. I believe it is spearheaded by Kick It Out, but I might be wrong on that.

You would be surprised at how much societal and cultural change has had to happen here. That is why it has been a slow process, because they have to keep people onside. Some of the changes were not well received initially. Now it is much easier because people are enjoying the benefits of the previous changes. Now you have a parliament that has to, by law, have at least 50% women in it, when at the start of the process that thought of a woman in it would have been anathema to many.

I too have enjoyed it, it is always interesting to get a fresh viewpoint.}

22.) 08 Dec 2020
08 Dec 2020 19:29:51
Tomsbakery, go and google what All Lives Matter mantra means and then get back to me and we can discuss. Spoiler Alert: It does NOT mean what you think it means, I can guarantee you that.