19 Jan 2018 12:04:33
WARNING, RANT ALERT. People are always moaning about how the kids don't get enough chances, but then at the same time be moaning a lack of depth so we don't have to rely on kids. The irony is unreal 🤔

Right now, Liverpool have just a handful of players i would consider as young/ inexperienced that are in and around the first team. Gomez playing regularly, Arnold and Solanke rotating in occassionally, plus Grabara, Ejaria and Woodburn just training with the first team, right now but looking closer to the match day squad than the other kids.

In Grabara we have a really good young keeper who stands out as one of the best keepers at the club in terms of raw ability. Physically he probably wouldn't cope with the mens game just yet. However, would people rather we have someone like Caballero or Bravo as back up, who have to play cup games just to keep them happy, even when the best keeper could easily play? Because I know i wouldn't. How often does a keeper get injured? And will it really derail your season if a young keeper has to come in and play. Grabara will be on a lower wage, moan less about game time, and has the potential to one day take over the number 1 spot. So i see no issues. For me you should have 1 keeper who plays every game, the youth optio who plays u23's mainly but is being groomed to take the role, and a 3rd pick who is on the edge of retirement, who will help out the younger keeper and the coaches. I don't want a useless player like Bravo or Caballero who has to play occassionally to the detriment of the team, purely so they don't ruin squad harmony by sulking.

In Arnold we have probably the most talented u21 player in the Premier League. His ceiling is whatever he wants it to be. He's already our best player at set pieces, already our best player at delivering crosses into the box, and he's also scored 3 absolute belters from right back this season. Maybe people want our back up to be a player like Danilo, Darmian, Debuchy or Zappacosta? Average squad players who will never improve and are already trailing Arnold ability wise?

In Gomez we have a centre back who was nominated for the European Golden boy award, currently holding his own as a first choice right back in a top 4 and CL challenge. Perhaps people would rather we get in someone like Moses, Young, Valencia, Delph etc? Some of those "top quality" utility players at the top Premier league clubs on huge wages, covering full back positions? Hmmm. Perhaps not.

Ejaria is probably the least talented of all of these players, and yet he has still already made his first team debut and looks a class apart at u23's level. It is very unlikely he will get anything in the way of significant minutes, but perhaps we should chuck him out and have a player like Carrick, Yaya or Cazorla as our last resort, whilst they pick up £100-200k a week for getting their latest cast signed?

Woodburn; one of the brightest talents in English/ Welsh football, already having scored his first senior Liverpool goal at a record young age, and having looked like Wales' best player in recent internationals. Of course, we could sack him off and have a player like Mkhitaryan, Walcott, Sissoko etc sitting on the bench earning a fortune? Again, no thanks.

Lastly, Solanke. Also nominated for the European golden boy award alongside Gomez, top scorer at the u20's world cup, and has already had an impact on the first team by coming on, mixing it up and creating the opening goals for others (against the likes of Palace/ Stoke when it looked like we would never score), as well as putting himself in there to score his own goals. Sure his only goal thus far was disallowed, but how many goals have Lloriente, Ibrahimovich and Giroud scored or created this season? How many games have they impacted? Probably not a lot more than Solanke despite earning up to 10 times his salary, and going nowhere special in the remainder of their careers.

So next time you moan about our squad being so thin that (god help us) Grabara, Gomez, Arnold, Ejaria, Woodburn and Solanke might occassionally get on the pitch/ bench, just ask yourself; would i rather have Caballero, Young, Danilo, Carrick, Walcott and Lloriente? Because those are the alternative options when you are asking players to sit on the bench most weeks, or play out of position for the teams benefit like Gomez is doing. You are not going to find top players who will be happy with 100-1000 minutes of football a season. You are not going to find top players who will sacrifice their own performance levels to do a thankless job in a position they know they might struggle in.

So you can either pine for players on huge salaries who are maybe marginally better in the short term (debateable) but will only get worse and expect huge salaries, or you can back our young lads through the odd mistake and in a few years time maybe a couple of them will be in the starting XI? I can't force anyone to have a little faith in a handful of younger squad players, but i will defend them until my last breath when people would seemingly rather we continued to stockpile players like Bogdan, Flanagan, Markovic and Sturridge. Because that is the level of player you can get when you're asking them to sit in the stands all season.

Everyone has their own opinions i guess, and just because i disagree doesn't mean I'm right. Perhaps i am horribly wrong and Cazorla has been influential in Arsenal's spectacular form this season. I know what i would prefer as squad padding, and it does not include old or average mercenaries sitting on the treatment table or in the stand, on huge 6 figure salaries.

I am all ears though if any Eds or fellow reds think otherwise. It is a banter forum after all, and i thrive on the negativity 😂.

{Ed002's Note - Grabara seems to have Caoimhin Kelleher ahead of him - whether he makes it at Liverpool or not will depend how he is dealt with - personally I doubt it and he certainly should not be a number 3.

Arnold - you have the red tinted specs on as you have elevated him to being the best under 21 in the Premier League.

Ejaria - will need a loan to get experience.

Woodburn - needs a loan for experience and is still very, very young.

Solanke - needs to lose the massive arrogance issues and he will do well - he was well thought of at Chelsea.}

1.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 12:33:23
Kelleher is a good young keeper Ed, i watched him live against Milton Keynes just over a year ago. He could easily overtake Grabara eventually, but Grabara has recently been given a new long term contract and sent to train with the first team.

On Arnold, i am open to suggestions on who is better. I was referring to his overall potential and not his current ability. He is 19 so of course there will be players close to 21 who are currently further along in their development. Maybe Jesus has more potential but i don't see any other players under 21 years old who i would rather have than TAA.

Ejaria and Woodburn i disagree. Loans rarely ever work out at any club. Send a youth player on loan and you might as well sell them. Maybe if we had a set-up like Chelsea I'd partially agree, but aside from Christensen and Courtois, there are about 100 other players who didn't make it at Chelsea in the last 10 years. They just end up wasting away on somebody elses bench, or playing at a dismal level of football, on dodgy pitches, training with poor coaches. It hinders their development in most cases. I will agree to disagree there though because i know you are a big fan of the loan system.

On Solanke i can't comment on his arrogance issues at Chelsea as I'm not ITK, but he has been hard working and humble at Liverpool so far.

Irrespective of all of that though, the point is i would rather have young players to cover injury and suspension than over paid second rate players who are only in football to make money and don't really care if they play or not. That is how we ended up with a toxic wage bill and 30 senior internationals under Rafa. Whether or not people agree on the quality of the young players is besides my point. If they are not good enough, the answer is not to replace them with more squad players, it is to improve the academy or find young players who are good enough to be a part of the first team set up. I did point out that it's probable only around 2 of those players will make it with us as a starter, but if we don't give them a chance it will be none of them. Then nobody wins.

{Ed002's Note - Klopp included Kelleher in the Champions League squad and not Grabara - perhaps Klopp doesn't know that then.

There are numerous very good players - but tho elevate him to the top is simply wrong.

Loans work out at clubs who have an organised plan for the progression of players - Liverpool don't. No loan for these players and they will look to leave.

Solanke is not humble at all. He will very soon be bleating about him not getting the promised playing time.

2.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 12:35:16
Thank you for the reply by the way, Ed002. I always appreciate the views of a neutral.

3.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 12:49:37
Fantastic reply Ed02.

4.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 12:52:57
I agree that is strange Ed. I can only go on the noises the club make though, and just 1 month ago Grabara was given a new 5 year contract, followed by Steven Gerrard and Mark Morris publically coming out to say that Grabara was a brilliant keeper with a big future at the club. It could just be noise admittedly, but he has since started training with the first team.

On Arnold, i didn't say he was the best, I said he was the most talented. That is a hard thing to predict, and it is entirely subjective, but i am most certainly not biased when it comes to youth football. Foden, Hudson-Odoi, Rashford and Arnold are for me, the 4 top talents in English football. Jesus is probably on par with them talent wise, and despite being Brazilian he is a part of the Premier League.

As you say, Liverpool don't have a good loan structure. Not one player we have sent out on loan in the last 20 years has returned to the club to become a first choice starter. Carragher, Gerrard, Owen and Sterling all went straight into the first team and stayed there. So for us, it is historically better that we keep them at the club, than pack their bags and send them off the play on a bog in Swindon or Port Vale.

We can only hope Solanke has grown up a bit since his time at Chelsea!

Thank you again mate. I know you rarely get involved in discussion so it is really great to hear your point of view on these things.

{Ed002's Note - I would not read too much in to the contract. As for Steven Gerrard and Mark Morris coming out I think it is very brave of them. Three of your four examples of players justifying bLiverpool not needing to have a loan structure played for the club back in the 1960s - the game has moved on - even if Liverpool hasn't.}

5.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 13:02:55
I think MK has a point in that why have average players as back up that will never improve where as the players he mentioned might just b special. if one of those players becomes a top player for us isn't it worth sticking with youth over average back up. and as for chelseas loan system i personally think its a joke, how many players made it at chelsea after going on loan about 2 or 3. persobally if a player is loaned out to another club he is ultimately doomed at his parent club and I know there is exceptions ie Beckham and Kane but in general its never works out too well.

{Ed002's Note - Courtois and Christensen are starters in the current side. But perhaps Liverpool’s approach of not having any structure is much better.}

6.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 13:05:59
MK you get a thumbs down cos it’s late here in Oz and I’ve had a few drinks and struggling to stay focussed reading the essays you’ve just dropped on the site! Perhaps I’ll see differently tomorrow when I have a couple of hours to spare! :) honestly though, I love your contribution to the site. Always worth a read.

7.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 13:19:37
I'd imagine Grabara was left to concentrate on the u19's European games as with three senior goalies ahead of him and Kelleher there's no way either of them will feature. Both are very good goalies but i'd agree with MK that Grabara is the better of the two. He's super and has a great career ahead of him.

8.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 13:21:48
I do agree with you to an extent MK, but I feel what klopp has done well in his time with us is create competition for a place in the starting line up forcing players to up their game. If youth is out only option from the bench then perhaps first teamers could lose the drive to work and train harder.

I am by no means saying we should fill our bench with the likes of Walcotts or Girouds or Crouches but I think it's important to have ahigh level of proven quality to step up when needed.
But I do like what your saying man.

9.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 13:36:30
Cheers fruitba, good post as well mate.

Made me laughing there Swishcleaner! Don't worry, mate, i let you off 😉

Liverpool definitely needs to improve their loan system Ed, but until they do, sending anyone out on loan is almost as good as terminating their contract with the club.

Teixeira, Ilori, Ibe, Wisdom etc are all recent proof that we just waste top young talents with poorly chosen loans which are even more poorly managed.

10.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 13:48:04
Not reading all that 😄.

11.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 14:06:59
I agree big Emre. Young keepers rarely ever make it, because for them to get a chance you need at least 2 keepers to get injured or suspended which is virtually unprecedented.

Bmena-red we definitely shouldn't rely on 11 youth players to cover the 11 first team players, i agree. There has to be a balance. I sort of explained it yesterday, but for me you should aim for 11 top class starting players, around 3-5 top class players to have on your bench, and then the rest should be older players on short low salary contracts, or youth players. I won't post what i'd like to happen just here, but I'll put it on the teams page.

Liverpool's youth players are not the problem. The problem is we don't have 11 top class players on the pitch, and we probably only have 2 and sometimes 3 on the bench. We need to upgrade a lot of senior players, but we certainly don't need to add to them. Replacing is an entirely different thing. Mignolet/ Karius, Clyne, Can and Milner should be out utmost priorities to replace. If we replace Clyne, Gomez can replace Matip at centre back. Can wants out, and we should sell both keepers unless Karius shows massive improvement, and just sign a top keeper. Milner is not a first choice player, but he has got to be one of our top 5 most subbed on players if you ask me. So he needs to be replaced with someone with more quality. You have to have the option to bring quality off the bench to change the game, but if you have so many players that you can't even fit all of your senior players into an 18 man match day squad, i think it is too many and it will cause disruption. Young players don't cause as many issues because they are at a different stage of their careers.

12.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 14:40:49
Young players particularly keepers never make it with us because fans turn on them after every mistake, confidence is then shot and they have little chance of recovery. Look at what’s happened with Karius?! It’s disgusting behaviour.

I’ve no doubt Karius will be replaced sadly as the fans will never get behind him and give him the environment and support to thrive.

Sad state of the fan base today.

13.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 14:45:09
Adam, I mean this in the nicest possible way but when you said you weren't biased when it came to youth footballers I almost spat out my lunch.

If there's one poster who I know will exaggerate the potential of a Liverpool trainee it's you, I mean, has there ever been a young Liverpool prospect who you didn't think had the potential to be world class? Not even Ed1's glasses are as red tinted as yours.

14.) 19 Jan 2018
19 Jan 2018 15:14:16
Putney, you have confused me thinking a player has the potential to make it, for me thinking they will make it.

Completely off the top of my head, I'd say in a each age group at every academy, there are usually a fair few players with the potential to make it. Out of those players though, only a couple will actually make it because it largely comes down to luck, who gets a chance, and who copes with the step up. However making it as a pro, and becoming a starter at your club are completely different. Even fewer players actually end up making it at the clubs they trained with as kids.

What people don't get is that all of these kids are talented. Academies don't keep hold of players who don't have even a slim chance. It would be a waste of time and money. So when i point out what type of players they are and explain how good they are at certain things, you have to understand that ability is only a small part of actually being a success. Therefore me saying a youth player is talented, is completely different to me saying a youth player will become a regular. And when i say they should get game time, that is because i want to see if they are good enough to step up, not because i think they are.

15.) 20 Jan 2018
20 Jan 2018 02:57:46
On the one hand you say you would partially agree with loaning out youths if it was like Chelsea;s approach, but immediately in the next sentence note that in recent years only Coutois and Christiansen has made it into their first team out of 100 loans.
Clearly Chelsea's system is not working for Chelsea even if it works out for the other teams who buy their players.