05 Dec 2017 12:28:15
(Long post alert) Hi markp08, this is inspired by you but not exclusively aimed at you. Firstly, I do respect your right to disagree, even though i was angry at the way you presented your opinion earlier. You've since presented your argument with more composure and perspective, so all is forgiven and there are no hard feeling. I take your point that Firmino can go missing against stronger teams and that he is profligate in front of goal at times.

However, Firmino has 11 goals and 5 assists in 21 games (1659 minutes) . That is better than a goal every other game. It is a goal or assist every 103 minutes.

The only other player in the world who can do what Firmino does in terms of pressing, goal scoring, and creativity (and to a similar level) is Suarez in my opinion. He is having a bad season so far by his own standards with just 6 goals and 3 assists in a very top heavy league, having played 1612 minutes of football. Goal/ assist every 179 minutes.

Ronaldo is top scorer in the CL and has 11 goals and 3 assists in 1381 minutes across all competitions. Goal/ assist every 98 minutes despite also playing in a top heavy league and taking 10 shots a game!

Personally, i find it obvious Firmino is great without having to analyse his direct goals contribution, but seeing as some want to do just that, my point above is that his stats stand up to some of the best players in the world. I think most people would have Ronaldo and Suarez in their top 5.

The thing is, there will always be somebody out there in better goal scoring form. Who would've thought Cavani, Icardi and Immobile would be favourites for the European golden shoe award at the start of the season? Everyone was too busy day dreaming about Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, Suarez and Mbappe.

At the end of the day though, it is about scoring goals as a team (not as individuals) and i think I'm right in saying we have scored 55 goals in 23 games. Carry on at that rate and we'll have scored close to 150 by next May. Firmino has contributed to nearly a third of those goals directly (16), and if you analysed them all individually I'll bet he was involved to some extent in close to half of them.

Our main problems are not in front of goal. We can micro-analyse our forwards if you want, but before Saturday, no team had scored more than 2 goals past Brighton this season, and we smashed them for 5 in their own back yard.

If there are people out there who just genuinely don't rate Firmino, that's fine. But you don't need to antagonise the rest of us with blatantly over the top criticism, put words into peoples mouths, or suggest that the Eds have a propaganda-style agenda behind their match reviews.

The beauty of an opinion is you cannot be wrong. So just give us your counter arguments and back them up with explanations! The debates might still get heated because we are men (mainly) discussing football! If your argument is good enough, you won't need to attack other opinions (leave that behaviour in politics! ) Who knows, you might even change peoples views? What's clear is Firmino divides opinion, so maybe there is some truth to both sides. let's just agree to disagree. Truce?

1.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 13:44:34
Your not winning the league without 20 goals minimum from your striker. Even if you have a blinding so winger.

As Long as everyone's happy with top 4 then there's nothing to worry about :)

2.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 13:57:10
@TopBusiness

Chelsea, 2005/ 06, Premier League champions.

Top Scorer: Frank Lampard, 16 league goals

Top Scorer in all comps: Frank Lampard, 20 goals

Having a top striker definately makes it easier but is not totally essential. Although having a decent defensive like Mourinho's chelsea probably would help too.

3.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:08:49
TopBusiness, if Salah scores beyond 20 (which he almost certainly will) I don't understand what difference that makes just because he's called a winger instead of a striker.

4.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:10:54
TopBusiness, i really don't understand why it matters who scores? If you can elaborate, please do. Salah is the top scorer in the Premier League. Why does it matter what position he stands in at kick off?

I can easily see Firmino, Salah, Coutinho and Mane scoring 80 goals between them this year if we keep hold of Coutinho until next summer. They already have 39 by early December. Don't you think it is ridiculous to suggest that having a single striker scoring is worth more than having 4 players all equally as deadly?

I'm all ears, but i think that is a completely unsubstantiated statement which cannot be backed up. We won't win the league, but it is blatantly obvious that it is our defence holding us back. We are third top scorers in the league, but we have conceded more goals than Swansea. Yes, you did read that correctly; we have conceded 19 goals whilst 20th placed Swansea have only let in 18.

5.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:17:09
Last time i checked, City won the title in 13/ 14.

Suarez, 31 league goals.
Sturridge, 21 league goals.
Yaya, 20 league goals.
Aguero, 17 league goals.

We had 2 strikers score more than Aguero. Their top scorer was a midfielder. They won the league without a 20 goal striker that year. And you can't say "yeah but Yaya got 20", because you've basically already said that it doesn't matter if players in other positions score goals.

6.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:21:09
Hi Mk, I had been away with the lads for a few days and I read through the posts on here and I felt the Firminho love in had gone too far. It just seemed Firminho gets the credit for everything and is above critisism.

I shouldn't have brought the world class part up. I just read world class and jumped all over it without reading it properly.

My position on Firminho is different to yours and a few games won't change that either way. I hope you are right as we will be more sucessfull. I said in a post 2 weeks ago I expected Firminho to go on a run and play well till the new year. I just don't think he will be able to maintain it and I hope he tries to improve his hold up play. I am just looking for small improvements. I am also expecting better from Mane and PC.

7.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:29:12
Personally I think the only position you can't win the league without is a keeper on good form. Everything else can be covered or compensated for.

8.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:30:20
Mk, your spot on mate, if our defence was improved, we would def be a top three side, and we would score even more goals, it doesn't matter for me who scores, just as long as we play well and get the three points,
yes, it looks good in the sunday papers if your striker bagged another goal,
I think, and funny enough, Klopp thinks that Firmino is very important to our side, as he is involved is so much of our offensive play and goals .

9.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:45:17
MK agree with you on pretty much everything, and I definitely want to improve our gk and defence, but our 19 goals conceded is being skewed by two results, 10 conceded in 13 isn't far off the other top teams form.

10.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 14:47:03
We are doomed then Hjikle.

11.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 15:03:35
markp08 - momentarily? Yes, but I still have a lot of faith that Karius and Ward will be consistent, above average keepers who can control a defense if we trust them and give them the game time to settle in.

12.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 15:24:09
I doubt Ward will even get a chance, but I would like him to be given a chance. Karius I have no idea. He just doesn't seem vocal enough to me.

13.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 15:28:24
Very true idontlooklikeklopp. Good point. However the odd 1 goal conceded to a soft error such as those against Chelsea, Burnley, Newcastle etc has cost us 6 points alone, so although the number is skewed, it is still poor that we've dropped so many points to a soft goal. And that's just off the top of my head. A decent keeper alone would've stopped all 3 of those goals and we'd probably be joint 2nd!

We've only failed to score twice i believe? City (under mitigating circumstances) and United. All other points dropped have basically been because of silly mistakes at the back rather than us failing to break the opposition down. That's despite Coutinho sulking, Mane being injured/ banned and Lallana not even playing yet. Going forward we can hurt anyone, but the soft equalisers we keep conceding will come back to haunt us in May.

14.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 15:33:21
No worries Markp. Water under the bridge mate. Like you say, we all want the same end result so no point going at each other. Hopefully Firmino bangs in 30 this season and shocks us all.

15.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 16:14:20
Man City won the league with Joe Hart in goal.

16.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 17:56:47
Ron. 😂😂.

17.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 18:02:44
I was just going to add to my point above that if we and MU had swapped keepers at the start of the season we would have more points than they currently have, and them less than we have, and then Ron drops the J Hart bomb!

However, in general I would guess about 20% of goals are scored by a great bit of skill either build up or shot (sit back and applaud it),40% set piece Inc penaltys, and the rest are defensive errors -see Arsenal at the weekend and who else remembers Roy Keane back passing to Batigol, everyone makes mistakes, a good system covers most of those inevitable mistakes unless they're the keepers brain carts.

18.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 18:31:28
And I didn't even hint at the Kasper Schmeichel bomb 😁.

19.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 18:53:28
MK. Just to add to your point in comparing Firmino's stats to the likes of Rondaldo, Suarez, etc. Let's not forget that Ronaldo takes every penalty for Madrid. Firmino is not our regular penalty taker and gets very little attempts from Penalties if any.
Sure the penalty taker still has to put it in the net but IMO that has to be taken into effect.

20.) 05 Dec 2017
05 Dec 2017 20:35:33
That’s probably because he missed the one he did take for us this season . along with Milner and salah.