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30 May 2017 21:06:30
Hi eds

My friend, although not really a reliable source, told me that we're in for Kevin Volland of Leverkusen. Do we hold any interest in him?

I do realize he just moved last year, but given that Klopp was very keen on the player when he first arrived at Liverpool, I thought it to be quite likely if the right offer was put on the table?
I personally think he would be a quality addition, since he can play as both a striker and on the wings. Also remember him and Bobby having a great partnership when both were at Hoffenheim.

The Red Flagon

{Ed002's Note - Sorry, not tht I am aware.}


1.) 31 May 2017 06:52:58
good shout, but if anything he has had, a not so convincing season at leverkusen. Probably not an upgrade over origi IMHO.


2.) 31 May 2017 14:35:06
Shame - thank for the reply ed!


3.) 31 May 2017 12:19:52
Shame - cheers for the reply!


 

 

 

The Red Flagon's banter posts with other poster's replies to The Red Flagon's banter posts

 

28 Sep 2017 15:51:33
Whoops, yet another thread about Henderson - I'm terribly sorry

A question for Ed01 if you're around - and also generally for any of you fellas who can give a proper answer

There's something I've been wondering . We always bring up Henderson's footballing skills, and whether you're a fan or not, I feel like there's nowhere near any talk about his attributes as a captain. It's only ever in small bits, but never dedicated enough or backed up enough to convince me of anything. At least I always feel left wondering

This has led me to realise that I'm actually not sure about what exactly he offers to the team captain-wise.

Is he a good organizer of the players around him? Is it his workrate that makes him a good choice? Is he more of a backroom captain? Is he good at keeping his teammates at bay? (I'm not sure that's the correct term, but I mean does he take notice of his teammates and give them peptalks throughout the game, calming them down/ motivating them/ etc. ) . Does he get in the refs face? Is he just good at following instructions from the sideline? And so on

I do try and take notice of him when we play, but it's not always easy when watching on the TV - sadly I've ever only been to Anfield once as it's hard for me to take the time off to travel around. But I know that it's always easier to see these kind of things when actually going to the games.

I will try not to propose my own ideas as to why he is/ isn't a good fit, again simply because I wonder more than I actually know.

The Red Flagon

{Ed001's Note - it really depends when I have seen him, some games he organises the free kicks etc but then the next one he just seems to do nothing in that regard as he gets caught up arguing decisions.}


1.) 28 Sep 2017 16:57:59
We need another Hyypia figure. Arguably the best captain Liverpool have had in recent times.


2.) 28 Sep 2017 18:01:50
He wasn't actually captain for that long though think it was about a season before being replaced by Gerrard.


3.) 28 Sep 2017 19:37:27
Hyypia captained the team when Stevie was out. Plus Hyypia captained us to the treble in 01/ 02.

He was a natural leader, stood out from the rest.


4.) 28 Sep 2017 20:03:10
Hyypia was de facto captain from 1999 due to Redknapp's injuries and Houillier's aversion to picking Fowler regularly.


5.) 28 Sep 2017 20:10:06
I wasn't doubting his leadership qualities but rightly or wrongly he wasn't officially captain for that long.


6.) 28 Sep 2017 20:51:50
that treble you speak of would have been 2001 mate.


7.) 28 Sep 2017 21:37:16
Ed01 exactly. I feel it's difficult to judge his all around captaincy skills from the few things I take notice of. I recall he seemed to be pretty vocal and augmentative against the ref in Moscow and perhaps a bit in general now that you mention it. A bit all over the place for good and worse.
Anyways, that's part reason why I thought there might be more to it than what we just see on the pitch. I recall Rodgers calling him a leader by example due to his work both on and off the pitch, so surely he must be doing something right in the backroom as well.

But again, I feel I know too little to actually give my own qualified opinion.

{Ed001's Note - he does work extremely hard in training and is a good example in that regard, but I don't see that, personally, as a reason to be captain, that should be the norm.}


8.) 28 Sep 2017 22:26:07
Since Klopp's arrival, have we ever looked at switching the armband?
In other words, do you know if Klopp rates him as the carry-on captain? If not, is it more a case of not knowing who to replace him with/ not wanting to disrupt the harmony in the squad?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions and some if's and but's, just trying to get some long overdue clarification.


9.) 28 Sep 2017 23:40:24
Out of interest do you guys think the captain is all that important?

Apart from what previous captains of the club would bring to the team in terms of football ability, what is it that henderson is lacking?

It has always struck me as a role given greater importance than perhaps it needs. For example would you take a team with a good knoweldge and understanding of game management and the managers tactics and how thet evolve with game errors etc or a singular figure that was a "perfect" captain?


 

 

21 Sep 2017 14:16:40
Question (s) for Ed001

Since Klopp's arrival, have we ever looked at bringing in a defensive/ holding midfielder?
And are we atm looking for one?

I don't recall anything of that sort, but even Klopp must now realize that something needs to happen in the midfield department. I do realize Keita is coming next season adding something new (really looking forward to that! ) but since he's not going to be playing deep, surely our aim should be to get a deeplying defensive minded midfielder in as well?

Cheers.

The Red Flagon

{Ed001's Note - not that I can think of, but he has been trying to fix other problems first and, up until this season we had a couple of players for the role in Lucas and Stewart, who both left. So the glaring need wasn't so glaringly obvious. I would be shocked if someone to sit in front of the defence was not recruited this coming summer.}


1.) 21 Sep 2017 14:34:36
With that do see Henderson or Can leaving to make space for someone to come into the team to play defensive midfield ed? And Ed if you could choose who would you want us to realistically sign?

{Ed001's Note - Can is going. I actually think we missed a trick not picking up Nampalys Mendy in the summer. We could have brought him in on loan for a season to see if he is good enough.}


2.) 21 Sep 2017 14:35:12
Hopefully Klopp agrees - thanks for the swift reply!

{Ed001's Note - I am sure he will agree with Can leaving.}


3.) 21 Sep 2017 14:54:20
Interesting Ed - Klopp not a fan?

I actually think Can could be a real powerhouse in time but needs to find a settled position. That's not going forward IMO - Keita or Llalana or Coutinho will always be more effective - think he should be at the base of midfield in either a 1 or 2 but needs to learn the defensive side of the game. A few instances he's shown he has some way to go (like missing Arfields run) but he's young and do think over time he can make a real impact as a deep player with the occasional bullish run forward.

Surprised to hear Klopp is OK for him to leave.

{Ed002's Note - He wants to go - Keita will arrive, his chances will be limited and he has the offer to join a side who will be competing for the league and in Europe.}


4.) 21 Sep 2017 16:40:32
Sure understand why Can might be keen - just surprised to head Klopp would agree he's OK with losing him.


5.) 21 Sep 2017 18:00:30
There's not much Klopp can do, SG. It is a nos. game right now and with Naby arriving, there will simply be no room nor games and for him and he is right to assess his options (not saying you disagree with that) . As for the DM, it may be time Klopp looks at bringing one in and we know via Ed01, we know he was interested in Obiang and N'Zonzi, I think so he is not averse to that idea.


6.) 21 Sep 2017 18:19:17
I'd love us to get N'zonzi. On Can - I don't mind him going so much, it's a shame as he's definitely got talent to be an important player for a top club but to be frank if it's a choice between him and Keita, he won't win. What is a real shame is letting him go on a free - in todays market he's worth a small fortune and we need to make sure we get a slice of that even if it's just a one year extension to avoid him leaving on a free.

Then again, if Klopp can turn us around and fights for titles this season seriously (CL semi final, within a few points of the title etc) maybe players like Coutinho and Can will rethink their choices.


7.) 21 Sep 2017 19:19:48
Are we going to use just 1 cm next year? Everyone keeps saying its Keita or Can, but as we play with 3 cm, atleast atm, surerly Emre would be one of those 3? Or is Hendo and Wiji seen as better options? I just find it weird, because i believe Can play as good as the other two atm, and he still has room for improvement. When we bought him i was so happy, thinking he would be a massive player for us.

{Ed002's Note - and Lallana, Keita and no doubt others. He wants to challenge at the highest level and is willing to sign a contract that suits him. Liverpool won't offer that so he can agree a new deal in January with another side.}


8.) 22 Sep 2017 11:46:12
Players I would like to see considered for the Holding Mid role:
Christoph Kramer
Wilfed Ndidi
Steven Nzonzi
Aiser Illarramdi.


 

 

13 Sep 2017 01:08:45
Am I really the only one (it sure seems like it) that thinks our centre backs are of good quality?

With the pressing system and the formation we're playing we're bound to let in goals - our defenders are always going to rely on our whole team defending as a unit - if one or two players fail to do so the chain will break and our defenders will be made out to look silly in certain situations. Miss one player (aka Red card Mané) and it's going to be even tougher when at the same time nearly every Liverpool player on the pitch lose their heads and disregards that said system - just to sum up that game.
Give us Hyypia, Nesta, Puyol - you name it - in their prime time, I still think we'd let goals in with the way we're playing.

People forget so quickly, but do you remember going up against City last season? Klavan played both matches, we won at Anfield (1-0) and got a draw at Etihad (1-1). To me that says we have some good defenders when the system we play works. Just to put in some perspective.

When Lovren arrived at Liverpool he was one of the best cb's in the premier league (or at least he was up there) - but again, it's always going to be tough arriving at a club where the keeper can't command and besides using a whole other system than what he was used to. I think this is proof of where the actual problem lies. Maybe he is not suited to play the way we want to? Maybe he is and the pressing system just collapses at times? Either way, it doesn't really make him any less quality.
Also, having a committed DM to protect our back four (think Kante, Matic, De Rossi, Busquets, etc. ) would benefit our defenders a whole lot! But that's a whole other matter.

Our centre backs have had some outstanding performances since each of them arrived and admittedly also their bad share of games. Still, being able to have those good performances means that the force is strong within them.

Again, to me it seems to come down to the way we're playing and perhaps also Mignolet, rather than actually having bad defenders. I'll say though that Klavan and maybe Matip could be swapped for better ones, but I definitely don't think that they're bad defenders. Quite the opposite in fact.

Anyways, sorry, that became a lot more writing than what I set out to.
And it's probably explained a lot worse than I actually could. But I'm sure you get the gist of it. Either way, agree or disagree, just my humble opinion on this whole matter.

Cheers all.

The Red Flagon

1.) 13 Sep 2017 04:30:00
Its something I've been wondering as well. I don't think they are or the BEST quality but I think they're decent players. It's hard to tell if it comes down to coaching or just the players. I'm sure there's a little bit of both. I'd be curious to see how our centerbacks would do under defensively minded coaches like Mourinho and Conte. Hell, Chelsea has made Gary Cahill look like a good defender at times.


2.) 13 Sep 2017 04:41:39
Our system means we will concede more goals than perhaps other more defensively minded teams, but I think if you look at the nature of the goals we concede it is clear that there are serious issues with out defence. I'm not going to go over each issue as many people, Ed's included, have contributed to this discussion already. I think our defence means we concede more goals than we should and that we need different/ better personnel in those positions if we want to challenge for leagues. As it stands the quality is simply not good enough.


3.) 13 Sep 2017 05:26:31
I definitely agree that we're not strong enough defensively compared to the amount of goals we're shipping in. But again, I honestly believe it comes down to the way we're pressing/ defending as a unit and not everyone in the team being able to cope with that. Add a goalkeeper who can't command his area to that and you're going to get defenders that lacks control in some situations and thereby lacks confidence, which I pressume could be another cause.

I think Lovren is a quality player, Matip as well a good player, hell even Klavan isn't as bad a player as some would make him seem. Admittedly Klavan (and perhaps Matip) could be replaced by better players, but I don't the believe all this negative fuzz about them. They can play really really well when the system works! And when it doesn't, I don't think it's merely because of them.

And I agree Tj, it'd be very interesting to see them in this Chelsea team - I'm almost certain we'd witness what defensive qualities they actually possess. They're looking bad (at times) at Liverpool because of the way we play, not because they aren't good players.


4.) 13 Sep 2017 05:58:21
So what is your point? Change the system or outscore each and every opponents out there?


5.) 13 Sep 2017 06:37:37
I guess you can draw lots of points from what I say.
My original point was basically that I don't think our defenders deserve all the criticism they're getting, as I think no matter who we stick there we're going to let a great amount of goals in. I think our defenders have more abilities than what it's made out to look like - maybe because of the coaching or the way we defend as a unit. It seems pretty clear to me that in a long time we've gone for outscoring our opponents and unless we change our whole playing style, any defender is going to have a tough time on our side. Thankfully I'm not the one in charge of the way we play though, just wanted to shine some light on our defenders' quality.


6.) 13 Sep 2017 07:23:42
This ain't a secret anymore that our defense gets no protection from midfiled but that does not discount their stupid errors which also has been a reason we concede many. Our CB's are vulnerable in the air. We just don't win any headers. And when you loose the first ball you also loose the second ball as our midfielders are not positioned enough to win the cushion headers. We have a set of keepers that are average to below average not tested at the highest level. This doesn't help the defense. We have no leader at the back. Our players are pussesy when it comes to leading from the front. I have not seen anyone organizing our defenses against a corner or set piece. We need a Gerrard or Carra there desperately. Henderson has been at the club from 7 years and he still looks like a fresher out there!

Our system sends the entire army upfront and this is ok as long as you keep the ball but when you loose you are certain to get caught off. You can't blame anyone other than the system.

We did a mistake in not upgrading Lucas instead we brought AOX who is not going to help our defense one bit.


7.) 13 Sep 2017 07:28:05
Gary chill is a good defender. He is solid for england.

Look the defence shopped five goals the other day. That never happens under klopp but it did. City and sane targeted young tent Alexander and although he scored a beauty the other week and looks class going forward, I'm not sure on his defending though. Doesn't matter too much as he is being primed to become a midfielder. The next Gerrard I reckon. He started at right back.

Don't understand why Robertson isn't playing? ;he is clearly more responsible than moreno with a more direct final ball too. Gomes should start the Burnley game. Use our most experienced defenders

RB Milner
RCB matip
LCB lovren
LB Robertson

It actually looks quite solid on paper.

I do agree that our style of play would see any defenders shipping goals. I don't mind conceding one as long as we score two. I don't know what happened. By rights it should have been 1 0 to city. After losing our main mane we should've just tightened right up and parked the bus. Hoping for a salah counter attack.


8.) 13 Sep 2017 07:37:26
Robertson isn't playing because Moreno has been good so far.


9.) 13 Sep 2017 09:04:27
Then how would explain why our pressing game would cause us to concede so many goals from set plays and corners?


10.) 13 Sep 2017 09:20:47
Our problem, as it has been for years, defending aerial balls into the box, where we look weak. Perfect example against city. Yes I know we were down to ten men but you still try to hold out at one nil and try to hit on the break, but the second goal from Jesus killed the game IMO. The bloke is tiny and he scored a header, why wasn't he being marked? Every now and then I understand good movement and good balls in can cut through a tight defence but it's way to common to be a minor issue. Maybe it's coaching and maybe we do lack the protection necessary to stop these types of balls being put in, but our defences aerial ability has been suspect for years and we haven't had a towering CB to command the area since the days of Hyypia and Carragher. Maybe it's the keeper not commanding the area? Individually I believe our two main CB (Matip &a Lovren) are good, perhaps even better technically than the previously mentioned legends, but without leadership, teamwork, determination and efficient coaching it means nothing.


11.) 13 Sep 2017 09:21:20
Clearly our CB's are not good enough which is why Klopp wants them all replaced, per Ed01. In midfield, Klopp wants his midfield 3 to press high (with one always remaining to cover the gaps in behind) as a group and then drop in to defend as a group as soon as the ball is lost. This is not being done effectively and this has been the issue since the season began. A DM is not the solution here as Klopp does not use one in this system when in full flow. This is where Naby Keita will help next season as he is Kante but with more attacking dynamism. For now, our midfield have to do much better defensively when they lose the ball

As for the GK's, Migs is the only one that is known to be crap, overall as he has had 4 seasons to prove that. We don't know if Karius and Ward is the long term solution BUT we do know that they are talented and were very good at their previous clubs. They just need a full run of games to see if they are the solution. Klopp has messed this GK situation up big time however, I think he is trying to fix it by playing Karius in the CL which is like a demotion of Migs as every GK wants to play in the CL, so he is slowly phasing him out. I hope Karius can take his chance and run with it cos right now, Migs is not and will never be the answer. 4 seasons of crap goalkeeping has shown us that.


12.) 13 Sep 2017 09:21:43
Surely Robertson isn't playing as he's settling in and if he plays and has a bad game the knuckle dragging idiots will be out in force saying why didn't we sign Roberto Carlos and calling for his head.
I have always thought that about our CBs Flagon I thought the reason we concede so many goals was down to the full backs pushing up too high and having no attacking quality so they lose the ball and we get hit on the break.
After the city game however I'm not so sure as the whole back 4 (or 5) had a shocker and didn't even do the basics right.
Perhaps it was just one game where circumstances went against us but they will have to improve moving forward.


13.) 13 Sep 2017 09:39:47
Lol, A DM is a decent solution where it's clear the three CM's ain't doing their job effectively! Instead of having all the three CM to press high, Why not deploy one to sit back and the other two to press! So you are never caught off when you loose possession high up? Our midfield is one of the reason our defense has looked terrible. Klopp is not always right!


14.) 13 Sep 2017 09:56:52
The problem is multifactorial - from open play our centre of defence is too exposed by the gaping hole in front of them allowing opponents to run at them, pick a pass in behind them or thread the back down the flanks as our "full backs" are running back towards our goal instead of facing our opponents.
We are always vulnerable to crosses as our centre of defence has been pulled apart all over the pitch and wingers generally have too much time on the ball because our fullbacks aren't defending.

Set pieces comes down to poor coaching IMO.

Force Maldini and Baresi to play in this team and they'd be exposed. It's not about signing new players.

Klopp is of the mindset that attack is the best form of defence. There may be truth in that but you can't attack for 90 minutes x 38 games, you have to know how to defend too.


15.) 13 Sep 2017 11:33:15
I've long argued that part of the problem with our full backs is Klopp asks too much of them, we effectively play with wing backs but only 2 CBs. Our CBs aren't helped by a midfield that is focused on pressing on the opposition half. Having said that our defenders make too many individual errors as well. Basically we could have the best defenders and keeper in the world and, whilst we'd be better than we are now, we still wouldn't have a great defensive record because our tactics will always make us vulnerable.


16.) 13 Sep 2017 13:32:10
Our CB are average on their best day and that's just how it is sadly. Our system of playing them does not help certainly but they make so many mistakes in basic situations that have nothing to do with the system. They look as bad as they do because they get exposed so often, but they would not look more than decent in any system except one designed to play mostly for clean sheets.


17.) 13 Sep 2017 14:25:20
Harry, if you do that then what happens when the two press high, don't win the ball and the opposition break? . There will be a say, 4 v 3 as our FB's are too high up the pitch. The team is exposed again which is the reason why Klopp wants the Midfield three to work together and figure out who presses and who drops deep to cover the space behind. The players must be smart enough to rotate in this instance which most of the time, our players can do. However, they are not doing it well at the moment.

Watch the Arsenal game and you will see what I'm saying. When Hendo went to press Ozil and stole the ball and nearly scored, the other two in Can and Wiji stayed back. In other situations, it was the opposite depending who pressed first. That is what Klopp wants to do and NO, a CDM will still not work here hence, why he is getting Keita who can do the same job but with more dynamism. It is that simple. Open your eyes and watch the games instead of feeding your obssesion with a CDM which needs to stop otherwise, you will continue to be blind as to the way we play.


18.) 13 Sep 2017 14:57:25
Agree 100% with Ron there.


19.) 13 Sep 2017 16:18:07
I think if you watch liverpool the midfield do offer protection for the cbs. There are usually two holding players actually and o think we only need one. Hendo is fantastic in front of the defence and Can ain't bad either. What I like about them is they both like to get forward too and when that happens then yeah, we leave ourselves a little open.


20.) 14 Sep 2017 07:09:05
If we forget about the pressing and style of play etc.

We still conceded 12 goals from set pieces last season.


 

 

 

The Red Flagon's rumour replies

 

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06 Jun 2017 16:57:42
Potentially we could just build a ghost academy. A bit of hard work off the pitch and I'm sure we could turn the ghosts into real actual matter (they do still need to be able to kick a ball around, otherwise it's just silly), but still keep them free of injury - I mean, who's ever heard of a ghost suffering from dancer's hip? Make sure they're not african and all future problems are solved.

Besides, all humans, even footballers I'm sure, are afraid of ghosts! Anyone would flee in fear before even entering the pitch. Total world domination is right at our feet - what's stopping us?

The Red Flagon

 

 

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31 May 2017 15:31:38
I definitely think it comes down to poor management rather than him being up for it. If true, good luck to the lad - hopefully he can restore his career with a permanent move away.

The Red Flagon

 

 

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31 May 2017 12:19:52
Shame - cheers for the reply!

The Red Flagon

 

 

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31 May 2017 14:35:06
Shame - thank for the reply ed!

The Red Flagon

 

 

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30 May 2017 21:09:53
Don't see us selling him, unless Klopp bought Solanke to take his place.

The Red Flagon

 

 

 

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03 Oct 2017 23:10:32
To add some perspective:
Without fully knowing what the exact expectations to Klopp are from the board, he did put some of this pressure upon himself by literally promising them (and thereby us) the premier league title come the end of this season.

Again, I don't know if this is actually what is expected from him from the board. I definitely don't think that should be the case, neither from the board or from us. I'd be very pleased with European football for the next few seasons and to see Klopp build up a stronger and stronger side over the next years. Time is definitely on his side.

It all comes down to the Klopp-effect (or something else clever sounding) - he came and wanted to conquer right away! And against all odds he did get us to two finals and into Champions League. Add to that his spirit and charisma, a lot of supporters have been "fooled" into believing that we are a title challenging side and has been since his arrival. The expectations are simply too high and I can kind of see why. Although I myself don't buy into it all. At times I almost did though.

The Red Flagon

 

 

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28 Sep 2017 22:26:07
Since Klopp's arrival, have we ever looked at switching the armband?
In other words, do you know if Klopp rates him as the carry-on captain? If not, is it more a case of not knowing who to replace him with/ not wanting to disrupt the harmony in the squad?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions and some if's and but's, just trying to get some long overdue clarification.

The Red Flagon

 

 

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28 Sep 2017 21:37:16
Ed01 exactly. I feel it's difficult to judge his all around captaincy skills from the few things I take notice of. I recall he seemed to be pretty vocal and augmentative against the ref in Moscow and perhaps a bit in general now that you mention it. A bit all over the place for good and worse.
Anyways, that's part reason why I thought there might be more to it than what we just see on the pitch. I recall Rodgers calling him a leader by example due to his work both on and off the pitch, so surely he must be doing something right in the backroom as well.

But again, I feel I know too little to actually give my own qualified opinion.

The Red Flagon

{Ed001's Note - he does work extremely hard in training and is a good example in that regard, but I don't see that, personally, as a reason to be captain, that should be the norm.}


 

 

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25 Sep 2017 06:59:35
You just said yourself that we'll bring in a holding midfielder next season. If we assume that you're right (I believe so too) there's really no point in discussing whether or not he is better than Can in the holding role. Neither are going to play there next season.
Besides it seems most likely that Can won't be a Liverpool player come next season.

Whenever Henderson has been fit he has played for us. Add to that, that he is our captain this alone should tell you that he won't get dumped.

The Red Flagon

 

 

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25 Sep 2017 05:57:14
Harry - Henderson wasn't dropped deep due to not scoring enough goals - he was dropped deep because we lack options in that department.

Besides scoring goals isn't what we need him for - when he's played right he's great at getting the ball forward, seeing out the right plays and tackle through. His work rate is top and we all know how valuable he is for us when fit and played properly.

I don't think you're right about him not being able to replace any of the players you mention. Keita hasn't even arrived yet, I am excited too, but let's see how it pans out when he's had a game for us. I'd also take a fit Henderson over Wijnaldum all day every day. Lallana and Henderson might not offer exactly the same, but they still offer equally to our team.

Besides he has time to improve in the holding role, it's a long season so let's see it all out before we even start to talk about next season.

The Red Flagon