Liverpool Banter

20 Apr 2024 07:39:01
{Ed's Note - MK Scouser has posted a new article entitled, Will Jurgen Klopp Leave Liverpool On A Whimper?

19 Apr 2024 21:49:41
Not going to moan about last night, already over it. But I did want to make a more general point

I wonder if the modern robotification of football has played into the hands of clubs like Atalanta, this over-reliance on systems and tactics makes things far easier for them.

Ok, they were using a man-marking system, so the obvious thing we need to challenge that is having players who can beat their man. You want players who can get their head down and dribble, get the tricks out and start taking people on. You want an attacking midfielder in a free-role who has the freedom to use their own initiative and play in the areas they want, pulling defenders out of position, strikers who can use their physicality to isolate defenders and bully them whilst switching between forcing them deep and stretching them in behind. There doesn't seem to be any of that in modern day football

Same thing happened to City against Real Madrid on Wednesday, they were able to keep them at arm's length because they knew all their patterns of play and their was nothing unpredictable about them. Just a thought. Tactics and systems will always be important, and ultimately will always win you titles. But individualism seems to be overlooked, which is weird considering how many times individuals have won games, particularly in tight knockout tournaments where one moment can decide a game.

20 Apr 2024 10:26:26
As ED01 always says, "Players are being over-coached" to the point of being robotic in their patterns of play hence in some cases, pretty easy to nullify.

19 Apr 2024 12:52:03


MK Scouser has written an article entitled, Will Jurgen Klopp Leave Liverpool On A Whimper?

19 Apr 2024 13:33:13
Good piece, MK. Cheers.

19 Apr 2024 13:48:21
Nice one, MK.

Plenty of sliding door moments. Some down to circumstance, some choices or even non-action that has meant Klopp hasn't been able to accumulate the silverware that he perhaps deserved.

The ones that rankle with me are the lack of change to player and coaching staff since winning the league in 19/ 20. Just last season we started a line-up of 9 players that started the CL final in 18/ 19.

Going stale became an inevitability.

19 Apr 2024 13:59:19
Great piece mk.

19 Apr 2024 14:29:56
Well said MK. Echoes my exact sentiments. The past four seasons have been a massive under achievement, though including the horror of the C.V. in 2020/ 21, which may as well be wiped from the history books of the sport, feels a bit unfair.

Ultimately however, the history books will still say that after taking his team to the top, Klopp didn't know what to do with them in the seasons that followed. The 21/ 22 season was a blip even in isolation of itself. We chucked the league in the first half of the season with stupid lazy tactics and did astonishingly well in the second half to pull it back. The champions league run was surely the easiest run of fixtures any finalist has had in recent memory.

I will grieve the loss of Klopp the man, the figurehead, the father figure, but as a manager, he has completely lost his edge. I think even the most optimistic of 'top reds' are seeing that now. Didn't have a clue what to do in that second half last night and the players look lost. They lack belief, confidence and courage that has always flowed from the manager, but that has now gone.

If we are to put some results together, it will have to come from the likes of Trent dragging us through games, not from the manager. The players need to find a way of delivering for him, because he is clearly not going to be the source of inspiration or drive in this run in. He looks finished.

19 Apr 2024 14:45:33
I just don’t get how people can think he under achieved. The fact he got to push city to within a whisker over 3-4 years is unbelievable I think he over achieved. Tiny margins against the richest clubs in the world . If mo hadn’t of been taken out in the champions league final we would have probably won that game . He had us over achieving, beating Barcelona 4-0 in a semi final without the best player in Europe at the time ( Salah) proof again. And this season too, having to use kids at times along with new midfield and still be in whisker of winning the league after winning a cup and getting to two quarterfinals whilst working his notice and being knackered. Perspective.

19 Apr 2024 15:17:57
My issue is the move away from what he believed in. What made us fall in love with his football. Yes, he has made those changes based on the statistics saying it was the percentage call to win more games and deal with the low block we always struggled with. And there is definitely some truth to that - we have, generally, worn teams out.

I’ve always just felt that the team has never fully bought into it because Klopp truly doesn’t believe in it.

19 Apr 2024 15:44:24
In fairness to klopp he was competing against oil rich city and pep on a shoe string budget compared to theirs, city breaking all sorts of records in the process, i don't know how anyone could label his time here as a failure.

19 Apr 2024 16:09:31
Us pushing them forced them to break records.

19 Apr 2024 16:20:49
The issue of money is a convenient excuse. Klopp has done an amazing job, given the disparity in resources. Doesn't change the fact he still had an amazing group of players and should have won more.

Finances don't tell you how good you are. If that were the case, United would be better than us, as would Chelsea. You don't get to herald what amazing players the likes of Mac Allister, Robertson and Salah have been, and then when it suits you, say 'well they didn't cost a lot so they can't be expected to win anything'.

Irrespective of what the differences in spending are, the team you have is the team you have. We've had the best goalkeeper, right back, centre back, and right sided winger in the world over the past four years. That's almost half of any World XI anybody could put together over that time. To say we spent less than other teams so we should be content with not winning is an equivocation fallacy at its finest, unless you genuinely believe none of the players that we have are better than those at City?

You know who loves using that excuse? Tottenham supporters. Pochettino had the best team in England from 2015-2017. How many trophies did he win? 0. What do Spurs fans blame it on? Money. It doesn't change the fact that Pochettino had the best team and won nothing with it because he is a loser.

Klopp is not a loser. His attention to detail and strive for excellence in those first five years was exceptional. He was a force of nature. That journey and expenditure of energy would knacker anybody. Nobody can take that success away from him. yet we haven't been in anywhere near those levels in the past four seasons, in my opinion.

Disagree if you want but don't try and strawman anybody who wants to discuss the manager's legacy, as if anybody is denying his prior excellence. It's just silly.

19 Apr 2024 16:28:35
Your point mk about klopp being 1st manager in 35 years to leave club in better position than when he came in is excellent. I'm supporting lfc just shy of 40 years and your exactly right on that, i hadnt thought of it like that but it's 100% correct.
The football of late has been v disapointing, bad results can happen and teams go threw bad periods but performances have been so slow and sluggish, v frustating.
Also as much as people, myself included, critisise the tactics the players have fell apart,90% of our players are massively under performing, tactics r no tactics.

19 Apr 2024 16:32:18
I’ll be honest I’m the first to admit that watching our possession based football isn’t the same excitement wise as when we played heavy metal and to start with we would almost throw down the gauntlet to opposition and say however many you score we’ll score more

Then we strengthened the defence and keeper and opposition struggled to score whilst we didn’t.

If we look back though just over this season we’ve absolutely dominated every game (except City and Arsenal say) in regard to possession and chances created.

We’ve just not been that clinical. In football it doesn’t matter if you create 30 chances and don’t score and the opposition score 1 off a few chances.

Goals win games and all of our forwards have been far too guilty this season of missing opportunities they should score.

That also extends to the midfield and defenders. In every game we’ve played we had more than enough chances to win those games but unfortunately we don’t finish them.

If we scored those chances we’re still on for the quadruple we’re putting teams to the sword and the new possession style football is keeping us awake at night with joy and Linders is the tactical genius and heir to the throne still.

There’s a fine line between success and coming up short and too many times this season we’ve come up short. But also the majority we’ve come up trumps.

Now we have 6 games to win.

19 Apr 2024 17:07:37
Yeah I was reading that and thinking all the way through I’ll post: “Klopps real legacy will be that he’s built the club from a pretty low base to an elite club” and “he’s left the club in a much better state than what he inherited” but I think you covered it well.
Take away Man Cheaty though and his record would have looked much better, and it’s sad he’s not got anywhere near the trophies he probably deserves for the job he’s done but that’s football.
The clubs in a really good place and the future looks really promising, let’s hope whoever takes the job on kicks on and gets cleans up with the trophies.
Klopps going to be remembered fondly though by all liverpool fans.

19 Apr 2024 18:04:12
Love Klopp to bits, but agree with MK. Pep would win at least 3 PL titles with Alli (GOAT), VVD (GOAT) Fabinho (Almost GOAT), Robbo and Trent (Defo GOAT), Salah (GOAT), Bobby, Mane.
Doesn’t help when FSG gives you Kabab and Davies when all 4 of your defenders are out!

{Ed001's Note - FSG didn't do that.}

19 Apr 2024 18:28:17
Welcome back, Harry.

19 Apr 2024 18:50:13
I'm sorry but I don't agree with the majority of this article, it just damns Klopp with faint praise and is full of factual inaccuracies.

Remember where we were as a club before he came along, 1 trophy and 1 top 4 finish in 6 years. Since he came in 1 league title, 1 champions league, 5 other trophies and likely 7 top 4 finishes in 9 years. Add to that two second place finishes with 97 and 94 points against a team with 115 charges against them. All with a net spend of half of that spent by the teams he is competing against. No manager in the world could have done anymore over that time period unless you expect perfection.

Saying we have limped through this season is complete nonsense, we have 71 points after 32 games, we've lost 3 games, the joint least in the league, we won a trophy missing about 11 first team player. This season has been a minor miracle and to belittle it like that shows a sad sense of entitlement.

19 Apr 2024 19:19:10
I’m not sure it “damns Klopp” to say he’s our best manager for 35 years, but should’ve won more than 1 PL and 1 CL? Thought I was pretty balanced to be honest but it’s an opinion piece so you’re entitled to disagree Thunderbird. No “sad entitlement” here but think what you want, it’s a free country! I think someone else nailed it; we had Alisson, Robbo, Trent, Salah and Virgil who I think at times would’ve made most peoples best Prem XI and maybe best European XI. So we should’ve arguably won more irrespective of where we started, how much City spent and how much we didn’t spend. Overall I still say Klopp is a legend and ultimately the true measure of a good job is progressing the club forward which he’s done and then some.

Thanks for the excellent debate though everyone, thoroughly enjoyed reading the replies from you all. Too many to reply to you all individually but I thought everyone (agree or disagree) made fair points and knew not everyone would agree with everything. Like I said, Klopp’s laid the foundation and I think the next manager can build on it and maybe even take us even further on the road to glory. Just hope there is one last push to keep this season alive 🤞🏻.

19 Apr 2024 19:54:33
Can Klopp be blamed for the sh#t show Karius displayed in the CL final? Can he be faulted for coming up against a team that I think every fan knows haven’t been playing by the rules? The sheer fact that he has ran them so close is a minor miracle in my opinion. Sure I would loved another PL title and the CL we should have won but I’m not dumb enough to understand the extenuating circumstances involved.

19 Apr 2024 19:57:27
@woolback. We had a brilliant first team and that’s it. City had 2 first teams that’s where the money shout comes from. Remember the season we had no center backs? Playing our first choice midfield there. I remember city buying defenders then went out and spent another 1-200 million on more to replace the whole back 4. Last night was the first time this season we have played our first choice back four together I’m sure the commentators said. Pep wouldn’t have won 3 leagues with vvd if it was the season he got injured and the season after getting back into it.

19 Apr 2024 20:05:00
No mention of the 7-0 and 5-0 against Utd! Klopp’s done more than just win trophies. The fist pumping at end of games, the connection with the city and fans, the emotional journeys (Barcelona, penalty shoot out finals) . He’s made our club the envy of most other clubs, even our rival fans like Klopp even if they hate our club. I get that you tried to balance the article but it does come across slightly entitled. We missed the quad by 10 minutes in the league and not being able to put our chances away against Madrid which was an amazing achievement and closest anyone’s come. City came up short this week against Madrid so it’s not exactly easy. This season, we’ve already won a cup after a massive rebuild in our midfield, we annihilated Utd at there place in the first half 15 attempts to their nothing. That’s 0 attempts from Utd at old Trafford. Is it Klopps fault Nunez and Salah have lost their scoring boots and Jota is injured? Klopp has got every drop of energy from those players, except for a couple of games here and there and unfortunately they have been most recently. 9th net spend in the league and up against oil billions. The last 30 years were pretty awful. Klopp has given us back our club and in my opinion over achieved in what he has done. Of course he’s not perfect and has made mistakes but tell me anyone who hasn’t. He’s also made the right decision to go and has always done his best for this club. A 100% Legend.

19 Apr 2024 20:55:46
Klopp turned us from a perennial joke “this is our year” to winning everything.

When was the last time you heard the sneer “this is our year” from rival fans? Not in the last 4 years I bet.

That’s the difference he made, he shut the rival fans up and made us champions again.

I’ll be forever thankful for that.

19 Apr 2024 21:15:12
Do you know what GOAT means, Beekeeper?
If Guardiola was Liverpool boss he wouldn't have to face City with Guardiola as boss, would he? Klopp did have to contend with Guardiola and the Sheikh's money.
If City didn't have Guardiola I reckon we would have won two more PL titles.

19 Apr 2024 22:53:53
I agree with Thunderbird here MK and I’m surprised you are normally much better than that.

To say we have limped through this season and to use the word ‘bottle it’ is grossly unfair and incorrect. This season has been miraculous given the injuries and the fact we’ve been playing with kids for half the season.

You said the season after we won the league we had a poor first half of the season and had to rely on Ali scoring to finish 4th. We were top on Christmas Day that season and only dropped down the league when Matip got injured in a 1-1 draw against West Brom leaving us with VVD, Gomez and Matip (our only senior centre backs) all out injured for the season. We had a really poor run as we were sacrificing the midfield to patch up the defence until we settled on playing Phillips and Williams and then won the last 11 games to finish 3rd. Not 4th.

Last season we were poor but yet again you fail to mention the circumstances. We replaced Mane with Diaz who then got injured for most of the season. Jota was injured for most of the season. Thiago was in and out, Hendo was in and out, VVD had a spell injured, as did Ali. We had to play Bajcetic and Elliott in midfield before they were ready because we had no one else available. We signed Nunez to replace Bobby who is a completely different type of player and was struggling with the tactics.

All in all, given where we started from Klopp has been absolutely immense and I for one was hoping he would stay with us for the next 10 years because he guarantees we will be competitive. I can’t think of another manager in the world that can do what he’s done.

If we don’t get this right we might find ourselves right back where we started and people like you will realise just how good Klopp was.

As football fans we have absolutely no right to demand trophies. The margins between winning and coming second can be so small and we are up against teams with much more resources than we have. It can just be a Rodri handball here and a Diaz goal-no goal there and that can be the difference.

All we can ask for is that our team is competing and in with a chance then sometimes the dice will roll in your favour and you’ll win but other times it won’t. To be critical of a manager for competing against the richest club the Premier League has ever seen who are facing 115 charges for cheating is just ludicrous.

I get that you are disappointed with the last couple of weeks but let’s not try to change history to suit your agenda. Klopp has been spectacular and will go down as not only one of our greatest managers but one of the greatest managers the premier league has ever seen. The only shame is that we couldn’t have him for longer.

19 Apr 2024 23:31:38
Agree with Pecker here.

We are playing bad at the moment but it's been a good season overall.

I definitely would have taken champions league qualification and carabou cup at the start of the season. Some really good moments too with last minute goals etc. It's all good. But I do hope with pick it up.

Those 90 minutes against Atalanta was the most boring football I ve ever watched under Klopp.

19 Apr 2024 23:35:41
Well said Becker. In my opinion Klopp has had one bad season, last season, every other season has been fantastic in it's own way. One bad season out of nine isn't bad especially for a club that doesn't have the financial resources to dominate. I hope I am saying the same thing about another manager in 9 years time but I doubt it.

19 Apr 2024 23:47:58
Beckers, what agenda is this exactly? The one where I said Klopp had 6 good years in 8 so far, 3 building us up, and 3 of which yielded success? Or the part where I said he’s the best manager we’ve had in 35 years? Or the part where he said he’s leaving our club in a solid position to go do something even more special?

Thanks for the patronising response about how much “better” you think I am but I’m honestly not interested in engaging any further in a football conversation with people who clearly just want to start an argument by completely focusing on the negatives and pretending like it wasn’t a net positive post about Klopp’s time here. It’s a waste of my energy, frankly.

19 Apr 2024 23:44:01
A good read that MK, nice one mate. Keep them coming.

20 Apr 2024 06:44:24
Rigsby, I think you’re right and if we look back at those 2 seasons we came 2nd by one point the margin for error was so fine because we definitely deserved to win the league with those points tallies.

Cheers Salah. I’m not going to stop posting over a few people looking for a fight mate. It’s just weird how desperate people are for confrontation that they’ll basically reimagine what I wrote to take out all the gushing over Klopp. Imagine comparing the guy to Bill Shankly and being told you are entitled 😂

Davey Sulls, appreciate your capacity to disagree entirely without just being a troll. It’s a fair point. Cup and top 4 probably would’ve been seen as success pre-season. I think it’s more just how we’ve done it though. Going behind in 21/ 32 league games frankly, isn’t good enough. Going out the FA cup to United when we twice had the game in our hands with not much time left just seemed lazy as well. Finally the 2 Atalanta games were just the peak of our underperformance the last few weeks/ months and in the end we didn’t even really fight for it in that 2nd leg. I think we can all agree that Klopp deserves to go out on a high and I really do believe that if we win 6/ 6 this City team will blink. They’re not the same without Gundogan, and also with De Bruyne struggling to grab a game by the scruff like he used to. But a fair point well made. And as I said, if we do maintain the title challenge to the last day I think we have to consider this season a net success. Right now we just don’t look like doing that, but never say never.

20 Apr 2024 10:35:34
MKS, I agree with you overall except for the "bottling it" part cos really, with the level of injuries we have had (up to 13 senior players out" at some period in Feb), we have shown immense charactler and "bottle" to remain in the hunt for 4 trophies (never belived in th quad) up until a few weeks ago when things went south for multiple reasons. Remember the way we won the EFL Cup v Chelsea? If you ain't got bottle then, you can't win it the way Klopp, the players and the kiddies did, fact.

If someone had told me that we would be in the hunt for the title up until March/ April with Allison (let a lone the rest) out injured and Kelleher playing lights out to keep us there, we would have told the person to eat their veggies rather than smoke them. So the whole "bottling" it stuff is a bit over the top.

Now that being said, I see rival fans saying our season woulg go down in a whimper and I get the feeling for sure. However if these people thought we would achieve and win nothing this season, they cannot come back and say "Oh, you must be trash cos you didn't win it ALL". Sorry, that's not a thing.

Also, people need to stop conditioning their opinions (not you) babout our club, players and legendary manager based on what rival fans (who cannot hold a candle to us or Klopp trophies-wise) think. I've seen that a lot and it does my head in. Peace, my guy.