Liverpool Banter Archive December 06 2014
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06 Dec 2014 20:55:50
Anyone else think markovic looked bright today?
I think he changed the game coming on.
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Better than his other appearances. Shame he didn't appear earlier, might have created some chances.
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We could have started Sterling up top and Markovic wide, Lamberts movement in and around the box today was non-existent.Had we ran at them instead of f***ing about on the edge of their box, we may have got the result.Again, thought Lucas was top-draw today, if Rodgers let's him go i'm supporting Everton !!
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Molbysmetronome i was going to agree until you mentioned Everton
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He played well against Madrid and dropped. Can scored against Chelsea, dropped. Manager Inept.
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06 Dec 2014 19:11:16
Does anyone know why Rodgers constantly subs lallana?he always creates one piece of magic in a game and his work rate is always there yet others who are playing badly are never replaced.Do you think eds that Rodgers is scared to make the big calls?
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06 Dec 2014 20:39:43
"Does anyone know why Rodgers constantly subs lallana?" I do, it's because he hasn't a clue what he is doing seemingly and is just stirring the pot in the hope something bubbles to the top.
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I'd guess it's for the same reason Borini can't make the bench when our 32 year old striker with a bad back is on his 3rd start in 9 days. Or the same reason Ilori is in the stands when we have no CB on the bench. Or the same reason Sakho is relegated to the stands. Or.
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It's beginning to look like the 3 names in the envelopes were Rodgers, Pascoe and Marsh.
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Is it me or is it like last season never happened ?
It feels like BR's first season at LFC and all the optimism in performances are gone. I do not want to slate the clue but we have to question the signings that BR has made. He's got his own team now and too many of the players are just not good enough. Yes we have lost Sturridge this season, but all the other 3 strikers are his signings and have been awful. The midfield has not been strengthened and unproven players have been brought some of whom are going to prevent the development of our own youngsters coming through.
The biggest concern is that BR has little knowledge of European football so the team is playing poorly in Europe and the player recruitment is poor. I really hope that things improve when Sturridge comes back but we cannot expect one player to transform the team, he is no Suarez.
I have also stopped reading the transfer rumours page as I know whoever BR brings in will be c**p, only 2 signings have been good enough (Sturridge, Coutinho).
Hoping things get better, even bloody worse to see red nose's team in the top 4.
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Hieghway patrol
Did you mean the muppets?
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We've actually got seven strikers on the books all signed by BR for about £62Mish combined- Borini, Sturridge, Yesil, Aspas, Lambert, Balotelli, and Origi.
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And Sturridge is the only top class one out of that.
Time to go Brendan.
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06 Dec 2014 23:40:12
One of my liverpool supporting colleagues was telling me a few weeks back that Lallana was the most subbed player in the EPL last season. Which indicates to me that, if true, spending £25m on him was not good business. I'd love him to play every game, I was over the moon when we signed him, and love it when he plays. But for £25m you'd expect him to be starting most games and regularly playing 90 mins. Add this to the fact that we now have 3 players who play best at attacking mid. frustrating
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Don`t read too much into that worthless stat because IMO, Lallana (might not have been needed at that may be true) is avery good player and with a manager (who actually knows what he is doing) could get the best out of him because IMO, he is just too good to be rotting on the bench. This is why coaching is very important co if you have a clueless manager who spends a fortune on players YET doesn`t play them even tho we can see they are good enuff (Lallana, Can, Sakho), we will never see the best of them. Lallana is a good player but like the rest, is playing for a manager who has lost his way and is desperate.
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Rodgers falls back on familiarity and so prefers subbing Lallana instead of Coutinho because he is more familiar with Coutinho and thinks he might create something. Ignore the fact that Coutinho's defensive work is almost zero and ignore the fact that his attacking contribution was non-existent - he has done something before so might again - nevermind that Lallana was playing better in all aspects of his game just sub him. Its the mindset of a manager who really does seem to have lost his way - I just wonder how much more FSG will take before they decide that enough is enough.
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06 Dec 2014 18:27:27
There has been a fair amount of discussion surrounding coaching on the forums recently and, with that in mind, I'd like to throw open a debate (and hope ed001 and/or Ed002 could provide some insight too): how much impact do you think good coaching has? Now obviously it has some impact but does it make a decisive difference?
Can it be the difference between a player being good and great? Or does greatness come from the players own ability? Or does the drive, ambition, determination in the player have to be there? I'm just curious because, in honesty, I don't know. I'd have thought good coaching can ensure players are cohesive, a team if you will, and play well together.
I would think it unlikely that a good coach can help a player become "better" - i'd say the drive and talent need to be there for that to occur. Never the less what does everyone else think - I would be really interested to hear the responses/points of view.
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{Ed002's Note - You are wrong Seano - the right coaching can make a player better and there have been many examples of players saying how one coach or another has influenced them significantly. In my experience much depends on how charismatic coaches are.}
Coaching is very important which is why it is a profession and a highly-paid one at that. Regardless of how talented a player is and the drive he has to succeed, if he lacks the right coaching input and feedback, he will struggle. Markovic is a good example (as Ed01 commented on recently). He has talent BUT if he is not getting the right coaching to improve his all round game and decision-making, he will not realize his potential which he defo has. A coach`s influence on players in some cases, is the main reason a player fails and succeeds.
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Mario Zagalo once said, " Who am to tell Pele how to play football?"
But this is rare. Most footballers benefit from good coaching.
They also benefit from good team tactics and selection.
Understanding a players good and bad points
Is very important.
What is negative is freezing players out and having favourites.
Borini really wants to play for Liverpool and prove he can be an asset.
His face doesn't fit and perhaps has been penalised for not doing as he is told, to leave.
Pepe Reina is his own man. His face did not fit. Replaced by Mignolet. A lesser keeper.
Lucas has also been offered the door.
What are we left with using this favourites system?
Turgid football and £100M spent on players who were once very good.
So there we are, back to coaching, tactics and team selection.
They all make a difference.
Good coaches and managers are like gold dust.
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If I remember correctly Pepe virtually forced himself out of liverpool
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Pepe Reina did not like the set up and did not feel comfortable with it.
It is a pity, as he is a commanding keeper.
As I said in my earlier post. If your face doesn't fit you are llama'ed.
We have good players. Ignored like Suso and others that have been loaned out.
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I'm sorry mate but to suggest coaching does nothing is clueless.
Coaching is what makes the difference and is the sole reason Engkand is so far behind Spain, Germany, Italy etc on the international stage.
I was unfortunate enough to only start playing at 11 years old and then spent years playing catch up with the lads who'd been getting coached from the age of 4.
I would even go as far to say, the right coaching and management is more important than raw talent. Obviously you need talent, but in my opinion, if two players of equal natural ability got coached separately; one by a level one Sunday league coach, and the other by a world class coach at a club like Barcelona, the player at Barca will be the better player.
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But over coaching can be as bad as none wouldn't you agree EMS?
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100% agree Chris.
Mingolet is a perfect example. He has been over coached and now tries to grt his hands down to shots he shpuld be stopping with his feet. He has absolutely no ability to stop anything instinctively with his legs as shown against Palace when he was nutmegged from 8 yards by Ledley.
The same goes for Sterling to some degree. The fearless young man we saw last season looks like he is being shackled into a possession based style (passing it backwards instead of beating his man).
If you are coached too critically you can actually cause a regression in a players natural ability.
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@ EMS - if I remember right EMS you were the lad that couldn't wait for Balotelli to come to Liverpool.
Stroke of genius, that idea. Yeah, you know your stuff our kid.
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Starwarz, bit harsh on EMS, It hasn't worked doesn't look ike it will but it could have done, hindsight. . .
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06 Dec 2014 23:27:42
Cause a regression in their natural ability? Don't be silly. Stunt their progression, sure. Cause their form to dip due to not utilising their strengthes, sure. But natural ability doesn't just disappear.
Coaching is massive part of player development. As a UEFA B licenced coach, I can tell you that without the correct coaching at the correct times (particularly at youth ages) then tactical development can suffer massively. This of course, extends to the elite level. But at this stage coaching sessions will be far more geared towards preparing for upcoming opponents. Functional practices aimed at exploiting identified weaknesses and working on areas defensively that the opposition look to exploit. But despite this, without good coaching the players won't adapt and develop their skill sets.
As for the Sterling point (EMS) that's purely down to Rodgers philosophy and style that he wants us to play with. As without other outlets and players pulling defenders around, a fearless sterling just runs into a wall of defenders and loses possession. So you could argue that infact he's not regressed but rather progressed tactically, to the point he knows when to recycle the ball and when to run with the ball.
But ultimately, if the player doesn't have the determination and (obviously) the natural talent, then coaching can only take a player so far, but far further than without it!
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07 Dec 2014 04:58:04
I agree with Ed002, good coaching can make the difference between poor and good and between good and brilliant. Of course there are things that can't be coached but remember that as much as we dislike Fergie, he got very average sides to win titles.
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{Ed001's Note - coaching is vital, the right kind of coaching. The wrong kind of coaching causes the issues brought up regarding Migs or the regimented playing style that English players end up with, losing all the flair and excitement from their game in favour of running a lot. Scott Parker is a prime example of that. He was an exciting attacking midfielder of some talent, then he got into the Charlton team and the coaches squeezed that out of him in favour of hard work and lots of running. A lot of coaching is about guidance, not just training their skills, but guiding their thinking to play the game the way that suits their skills.}
We are lucky to have been blessed with some of the finest coaches the game has ever produced. Rodgers, Marsh, Pascoe, Sammy Lee and Joe Corrigan.
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{Ed001's Note - that is really laying the sarcasm on thick mate!}
Is it just me or does EMS just rehash everything Ed01 has said
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Thanks for the replies ed's and fellow posters, lots of interesting responses and a fairly unanimous response in saying that good coaching can be one of the most significant influences on a players career. I suppose the question that naturally follows on from this is do Liverpool have the quality coaching staff in place to ensure this? Or even if they did does Rodger's increasingly poor management of the club undermine them? Again thanks for the replies, very interesting subject and one I want to learn and understand more about.
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{Ed002's Note - Many supporters want to see (a) knee jerk reactions from the owners with the sacking of Rodgers and the coaching staff & (b) the appointing the likes of Thompson, Hyypia, Carragher and other so called "Anfield Legends" to take their place. This is simply a naïve and rather embarrassing standpoint. The owners will be taking advice and looking at the entire structure of the management and coaching on the playing side - I have explained this in more detail previously.}
The owners approach sounds like the most sensible and the one that may yield positive results long term. I have read your more detailed response - it will be interesting to see what developments occur on the back of the advice given to the owners.
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And believe when I say that at long last, FSG will do things their way for once. They will get in am manager who can work w/ a DOF and make sure there will be no stupid mistakes made in the window anymore. I just hope they will make the right choice because we really cannot afford the chopping and changiing of managers cannot b good for the club long term.
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06 Dec 2014 18:09:57
What's the story with odegaard then? He was training with us in Friday so does that mean he's joining?
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{Ed002's Note - Search engine.}
06 Dec 2014 17:18:01
Ed01, If you are around. We had a small discussion over the CM spot between Allen and Henderson in a much robust 4-2-3-1 formation.
Today it showed Henderson is not the player for that role and had no impact what so ever in the match.
If You want Henderson to be the Next Lampard, Then He need to play high up and press high up.
He doesn't add anything played as a CM.
Your thoughts mate.
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{Ed001's Note - I disagree, as he played the role you are talking about, ahead of Lucas, not alongside him. So it completely negates the point you made. He is simply not creative enough to be pushed forward, other than when bursting from deep to make late runs. Lucas was the only holding midfielder today, with Coutinho and Hendo ahead to each side and it simply didn't work.}
06 Dec 2014 17:59:23
ED01, Henderson was sitting alongside Lucas near the half way line whole first half with us not pushing one bit.
He did not made a single run and Lucas had a brilliant game as the holding midfielder.
What is that holding Henderson?
He needs to be inside the Box and should be more offensive.
your thoughts mate
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{Ed001's Note - Hendo was in front of Lucas, not alongside. Sorry but you are quite simply wrong. We played one behind two in the centre and it didn't work because there was no space for them to exploit due to Sunderland's massed ranks. Hendo couldn't make forward runs because there was no space, not because he was holding. We needed a second forward or to actually use the wings, because in that match we may as well have had no pitch outside the width of the penalty box.}
06 Dec 2014 18:09:29
Sterling and Moreno used the width to some extent on the left hand side. We never pressed high nor had any intentions to win the ball back. We let Sunderland to play the game.
That's simply not good enough.
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Would agree with the Ed on this one, but honestly not sure what we were doing exactly. My view was Moreno, Sterling, and Coutinho kept getting in each other's way, as did Henderson and Lallana and it was all a bit of a muddled mess. The only role that was clear was Lucas who I thought was brilliant. Someone should have really been pushed up closer to Lambert for me.
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06 Dec 2014 18:36:12
RDL
I was pretty happy with the starting eleven except Skretel and Johnson.
Moreno and Sterling links up well and were doing it pretty good, But we lacked any kind of penetration through the middle ( Countinho and Henderson ) both on the ball and without the ball. We never pressed high when we didn't had the ball.
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Skrtl and GJ were so aweful, it was becoming a joke. Skrtl must be the defender that comits the most stupid fouls in the PL while GJ well, is as advertised. Sterling, Moreno, Lucas and Toure had solid games. As for the intensity and energy to get forward and press high, we`ll have to come back next time to see that because clearly, the team slept thru the game on those fronts.
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Earlier post incomplete.
Harry, what would be the point in Henderson getting further forward? He's got neither the ability or belief once he gets around the edge of the box, there was at least two perfect examples of that today. To mention Lampard and Henderson in the same sentence is quite honestly ludicrous. Henderson will not make "a Lampard" as long as he's got a whole in his nose, if you know what I mean. I have never been a big fan of Henderson but give him great credit for his performances last season.
I would say Henderson played the season of his life last season and will not hit those heady heights again. He's is not captain material either, the one thing I would say is that he could inspire those around him with his work rate but that's about all.
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This season Henderson has been a shadow of the player he was last season.
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To be fair to Henderson, last season we played more to his strengths (mobility and vision to see runners into space). This season we hardly do either of those.
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06 Dec 2014 20:02:32
Alan
Quiet agree on his performance this season has been shocking.
The reason I compared him with lampard being both not natural grifters but real hard workers.
He isn't a pass and move player and has got great technical limitations.
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No point having a go at Hendo, name me 1 player that has been any good ?
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Henderson took the plaudits (off me as well) last season he can take the stick this season
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If he is coached to play a game that doesn`t suit his strenghts (which we all know and saw last season) then it surely cannot be his fauld. Here is why coaching becomes very relevant.
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Disagree Alanhuyton, Hendo's game is perfectly suited to the pressing system we utilised so well last season and is why he was getting plaudits. We are now playing slow, turgid possession football where the intense pressing we became so known for last season has vanished. It is having a big impact on Henderson and his performances, especially as it seems like the manager doesn't know whether he wants Hendo as an attacking player or defensive - this unknown is meaning that he is doing neither well. I am not defending his poor performances, simply saying that our tactical set-up has removed arguably his most impressive attribute (being his ability to press and harry for an entire 90 minutes).
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Seano, my main points were made to OP re Henderson getting forward (a la Lampard), and not having the ability or self belief on the edge of the opponents box.
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06 Dec 2014 17:40:27
last week i asked ed about our interest on cherlie austin and every one take a swing on me ! well few commented like are we on such a down level to think a player like austin ! can't say much but austin scored his 8th goal of the season where our players even struggle to shoot in the target !
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Charlie Austin could turn out to be the new Charlie Adam.
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06 Dec 2014 15:26:20
Just hoping for 3 points today. with the current striker situation its always a shade more difficult at present. But whatever 11 are on the pitch they have to fight to win. Could be a good week.
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06 Dec 2014 15:51:45
1 shot on goal whole first half at home is a criminal offense against Sunderland.
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Did we even have a shot on target first half?
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06 Dec 2014 15:14:45
Eds fellow reds, think BR has rested Stevie with Wednesday in mind think he is hopping for another olympiakos night from the captin
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06 Dec 2014 14:47:09
I am very happy with the line up today basel and man u next week Gerrard needs a rest
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Can't see it happening. Basel will get a result as we just aren't good enough, I am not looking forward to the Man U game at all.
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06 Dec 2014 14:46:52
Have to say, I'm very disappointed to see we have no strikers on the bench.
Borini? Yesil, Dunn or Sinclair even?
At least someone to bring on if Lambert tires.
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06 Dec 2014 15:48:46
Lambert is not a lone striker; I don't think this game will end well for us.
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06 Dec 2014 14:30:42
Looking forward to the game today, bit surprised if its Coutinho who comes in for Stevie G.I would have thought Can would be an ideal replacement .
Glad to see Moreno included.Yet again Johnson is undroppable. .
Just want the points from this one, any improvement in performance will be a bonus.
Things building up to a massive game against the Mancs, which could decide whether we get back into the race for top 4 or face a season scrapping for Europa league.
Hope we try and go a bit more direct if Sunderland defend as deep as they did against Chelsea.
Come on you Redmen!!!
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06 Dec 2014 13:48:51
Not liverpool related but how many are watching nufc v cfc
I am surprised Sammy Ameobi is still on the pitch. I hate it when players show a complete lack of application and laziness. it frustrates me personally
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06 Dec 2014 12:39:27
hello eds.
considering the criticism of rodgers, according to you do u think that rodgers have the quality to become a good manager?
and who is u r favorite manager?
thanks eds.
YNWA
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{Ed001's Note - yes he can become a good manager, if he listens and learns instead of talking so much. Praise the players, not yourself and you will be a step forward.
My favourite manager is the greatest ever, Sir Bob Paisley. That man was a class apart.}
First thing you learn in coaching IMO, is "When we win, it`s the players. When we lose, it`s you". QED!
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06 Dec 2014 12:36:04
Have we ever looked at Ricky Centurion? Looks a player who could terrorise defences.
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Is that the player with over a hundred caps?
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{Ed002's Note - Racing's Ricardo Centurion was subject to bids from Benfica, Porto and Genoa in 2013, all of which were rejected. A move to Anzhi broke down at the last minute and the player was loaned to Genoa with an option to buy at the end of this 2013/2014 season. AC Milan, Real Madrid, Liverpool and Manchester United are known to have had representatives take a look at the player in 2012 and 2013. I understand that he is not getting as much game time as he would like and his representatives have made enquiries about a move to England with Liverpool last summer - but a work permit may be tough to get. I think it is unlikely it will happen.}
06 Dec 2014 12:32:41
I would like to see Toure in his preferred RCB role today next to Lovren. Lovren will not get confidence without game time and with Toure a natural organiser and leader I think these two could blossom.
Thoughts?
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Yes me too, but I'm hoping Sakho gets a run with Toure when he's fit.
Red Rum
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Yeah I also hope that happens.
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Im happy with any combo between lovren, sakho and toure.
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Toure`s a leader and vastly experienced which can only help Sakho, and Lovren, Skrtl? He is a lost cause, I`m afraid because today again, he was poor.
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06 Dec 2014 09:51:04
Just saw the eds comments about sterlings improvements being a lot down to him wanted to up his game (sorry if mis-read). Was just curious to how good the eds think sterling can be? Hard to judge as was flying last season and seems to be in a bad patch this season but in fairness doesn't have a lot to work with. Thanks in advance!
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{Ed001's Note - personally I think he can be up there with the likes of Robben as a top class winger, but not at the Messi/Ronaldo level, if he reaches his potential. It is up to him though, despite Rodgers constant efforts to take all the credit, which is really beginning to annoy me as he refused to accept the blame when Sterling wasn't playing well!}
No doubt about his talent, in my view he has to imprvoe his decision making, where to run on defenders and when to pass the ball and also his finishing. But even in bad days still create 1-2 good chances for goals, draw 1-2 fouls in good positions, keep possesion more than our other guys, so all in all key in terms of talent he is up there with Sturridge.
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06 Dec 2014 15:14:56
Cheers for the reply, tbh would be made up of we have a winger of Robbins qualit for 3-5 seasons!
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He also needs to improve his crossing ability as well BUT he is improving w/ better coaching, he will be up thre with the best wingers on the planet, IMO. Note: BR is a politician. Takes the credit for everything YET doesn`t wanna take the blame for anything until it becomes untenable and his job is on the line. PATHETIC!
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