Liverpool Banter Archive October 04 2017
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04 Oct 2017 18:33:49
Quick 2 questions for the Eds.
1) not trying to blame the defence for all ills but how much of our problems going forward may be related to trying too hard knowing we're always at risk of conceding? I've certainly played in a few teams before where a solid defence makes the whole team so confident because they know one chance is enough. likewise constantly thinking that any lost possession or missed opportunity could mean the game is lost seems to panic our attack? The confidence just seems to be seeing out of the forwards as the pressure increases.
To be fair I'll also ask a second question in the defence's defence.
2) How much of the current problems in defence are organizational and come from not defending as a team? Looking back at Burnley the lack of awareness tracking arfield was criminal, while against Newcastle it was clear Hendo went into a press that failed miserably because Shelvey was unmarked next to their player. Gini then failed to either press Shelvey or drop to follow Joselu, leaving plenty of time for Shelvey to hit the pass. Yes the CBs make fairly repetitive errors but the number of times the opposition has played through a half hearted or uncoordinated press from our midfield is scary. We never seem to have any real cover sitting deep, but then we don't seem to be cutting out the dangerous passes too well either?
Thanks.
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{Ed001's Note - they are impossible to quantify but they are all factors. Just like having a dodgy keeper behind the defence makes the defence jittery, it also will have an effect on the rest of the team. While I agree the press was not done well, the defenders should be reacting to that and dropping off when there is no pressure on the ball. If they do that, suddenly we don't concede from those straight balls. They also need to get closer together the moment we lose possession, they are too widely spaced.}
04 Oct 2017 19:36:31
Spot on, Ed and SG. The press in midfield, is not being done well right now even tho it was better vs LC. Also, players like Wiji are not doing it right now in midfield as he should have recognized the fact that Hendo Pressed hence should have dropped into the space in behind to cover for him.
The defence is there to bail the players in front of them out, just like the GK is there to bail the team out. None of that is being done right now hence, our defence is often a calamity. On the Shelvey pass for the goal, any CB partnership knows to either step up and play the offside or drop deep and deal with the through ball. Our CB's were incapable of doing either of these simple things. As a result, I feel for Klopp at times cos what else can he do? It just seems like our defenders cannot even execute the most basic of defensive duties at times.
04 Oct 2017 17:22:34
ED001, how do you know so much about the club?
I am reading your new article Former Liverpool managers part 1, and I am surprised by the vast amount of knowledge you have about every past player and manager.
How did you end up acquiring so much knowledge?
Thanks.
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{Ed001's Note - obsession I think is the answer. I just read anything and everything I can. In that case though it was a lot of research, as I knew very little about the first managers before I did the hours of reading.}
04 Oct 2017 15:50:52
{Ed's Note - we have posted a new article entitled, Former Liverpool Managers Part 1 - The Beginning
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04 Oct 2017 15:36:13
{Ed's Note - we have posted a new player profile about, Mohamed Salah
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04 Oct 2017 16:52:44
Only if we had a proper striker between Salah and Mane.
05 Oct 2017 06:38:19
Steady.
04 Oct 2017 12:53:58
There was a long thread yesterday between those that have started to question Klopp and those that have not. This debate needs to be framed, those that are questioning Klopp, in the vast majority of cases, are not in the ‘Klopp Out Brigade’, they are people who are concerned that our early season performances are reflective of where we are as a team and, if that is so, then we have taken a step backward from last season. In that light Klopp is under pressure, he doesn’t need to win the title this year but we should be looking for progress and if he is not delivering that then his position may come under threat.
However, it is recognised that we may simply be in a bad run of form and Klopp may yet deliver a successful season. If this happens we will all be delighted and this run will be forgotten. Personally, I may question Klopp over the next few months but there are very few circumstances where I would consider his position before the end of the season. I like Klopp a lot, I believe he has built a good squad and that he is capable of delivering the football and results we crave, but he has an objective, to challenge for, if not win, the title and his position must be considered against that objective. If it starts to look like he is incapable of achieving his objective then his position must be considered but we’re still a long way off reaching that point.
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04 Oct 2017 16:12:16
Spot on PutneyRed nicely put ðŸ‘ðŸ‘
It's too early to judge klopp atm no doubt.
A lot of fans including me are frustrated to see same problems occurring since klopp was announced our manager and still he's yet to fix it which is coasting us dearly week in week out : (.
04 Oct 2017 17:20:30
Well posted PutneyRed, a couple of points worth noting here, these current problems existed before Klopp was our manager and even with different set of players, I remember complaining about missed chances when Kenny was in charge, this making me wonder if the problem is not the manager but else where in the coaching or back office . As for Klopp future, its not down to us fans, here on this forum or in the KOP . Its down to the board, the minimum this year is top 4 or champions league qualification via a different route if it had to be, failure to achieve that may prove costly for Klopp. I don't want another manager change, but I really can't see us being up there come end of season, we simply did n't do enough in the transfer window.
04 Oct 2017 19:14:02
Putney, you have summed up that thread (which I guess I was on) brilliantly. I am as frustrated as everyone else about our form cos it seems like we are so close to being a great team YET so far off, all at the same time. Klopp's made mistakes and I bet he is more frustrated than all of us combined. But those implicitly campaigning for his dismissal by placing unnecessary, overnight-success type expectations on him after TWO years in charge, is just dishonest and unfair as BR, KK or Woy were never saddled with such expectations.
Ed01 has told us what Klopp is trying to do and the things he's trying to do and tho it is frustrating as it seems not to work, the right intentions are there BUT people ignore all this solid info and keep moaning like said info does not exist and don't consider it at all in forming their opinions cos clearly, moaning is much easier.
However as Roy said, what will become of Klopp is not down to any one of us here and that was and is my problem cos many on here are projecting that if Klopp does not do this or that within x amount of time, he will be fired by FSG or bla, bla, bla. Such people should stop projecting opinions as facts and quit speaking for FSG. News Flash: FSG are all in w/ Klopp right now as they gave him an extension after 8 months on the job. That much we do know so people should let the season play out and then evaluate afterwards instead of spooking everyone out with their "will he or won't he" stuff.
04 Oct 2017 20:04:08
I don’t know how could you stop people from SPEAKING on a public forum! Now we need to have an advance permission what to talk and what not to talk in this site? What is this site after all! This is a public formun with close to 50 different pages and 50k people visiting!
Sacking a manger is the easiest thing to do in football! What does it take after all? A compensation package and thanks giving post lol!
If a manger doesn’t get the job done for what he is asked to do then he gets the sack! What is so special in it! Normal!
04 Oct 2017 21:01:23
Again, Harry. You are preaching to the choir. Of course if a manager does not get the desired results, his position is in peril. That is not the discussion and never has been. What IS the discussion is people like you saying that Klopp's position is in jeopardy cos he did not win the PL in his first full season and cos we are having a sticky patch (mind you, 2 losses in 15 games in all comps. this season) and things are not working right now.
That is the discussion and it has been litigated on the afore-mentioned thread already. For the upteenth time, No one is stopping other people's opinions from being heard nor is anyone stopping other people from speaking. That is a non issue. You are only saying that cos you simply can't stand people disagreeing with your opinions.
That is what the issue is with you and frankly, many think your opinion is ridiculous as there is no substantive reasoning behind it APART from the fact that you hate Klopp and have always wanted him gone even tho, he has improved us over the two years he's been here overall so you just throw crap on the wall to see what sticks and call it facts. And you wonder why many disagree with you.
04 Oct 2017 21:39:47
All any manager can do with LFC, right now, is get the best out of the personnel at the club.
That's what Klopp needs to focus on. Mistakes have been made with player recruitment, they can't be rectified before January and possibly even July. So there's no point in raking over that ground. We just have to hope he does better in subsequent transfer windows.
There is plenty to play for this season. This time last season Chelsea had 13 points from 7 games and Conte was being pressurised. We have 12 from 7. They were about to win their next 12 games after their manager made a tactical change and storm the league title.
I'm not saying that's likely, I'm saying it's not impossible.
04 Oct 2017 21:39:20
I have absolutely no interest in having any kind of conservation with you anymore! My post was regarding the freedom to express on the page. People post what they want to talk and not what others want to hear! If anyone has an issue they should skip the post and move to another thread or start their own thread! You have absolute freedom to talk on anything related to FOOTBALL on this page and that includes KLOPP aa well!
05 Oct 2017 08:27:11
Do you actually not see it Harry? That's exactly what they do! They Give their view, or they start a new thread, then you jump into it with the same tired old drivel and then start banging on about being stopped from speaking! You're the one who is putting yourself into every conversation, and then you're the only one who is complaining about the fact that people have a different opinion rather than just leaving it at your alternative view! The only person here who doesn't want everyone to be free to express their own view is you!
05 Oct 2017 08:35:39
Spot on, Ron. That is my take as well.
04 Oct 2017 08:40:06
Eds, are FSG still looking to move the club on in the near future or do you think they will keep us for the foreseeable? I just remember something on here that alluded to the hearsay around maybe a Chinese ownership bid. Thanks.
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{Ed002's Note - No, the time is not right.}
04 Oct 2017 15:31:11
Made in China? No thanks.
04 Oct 2017 06:41:21
My God, things must be bad if we are talking longingly about Rafa. (Does anybody really remember his reign, especially the tail end)?
And while we are at it, what exactly do we think Liverpool "deserves"? Really? let's wake up people.
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04 Oct 2017 08:50:32
Spot on, Delvecs! They want Rafa back. Really? What has Rafa actually done since he left us that is of note? Getting Newcastle promoted from the Championship? The guy took the Chelsea job out of desperation after saying he would never coach a team whose fans need plastic flags to support their team. He is at Newcastle for a reason. How come FSG never hired him each time we needed a new manager? Cos he is toxic and a problem, that's why. Also, No big club will touch him anymore and like you said, he was dire in his last season here and I was happy to see the back of him as his drama was becoming too much.
No wonder LFC has not won the PL in almost 3 decades. Some of its fans are always dwelling on the past hence, can never look into the future with hope and optimism. They want everything done right here, right now and forget that Rome was not built in two years. Klopp came to us in our most dire of straits. He is slowly or surely building something solid and there will always be mistakes made, bumps on the road and will be a roller-coaster as the Eds have said. But that is poison for some fans who simply are incapable of staying the course and persevering through hard times.
They want Klopp gone cos he did not bring them overnight success as if he promised us that when he arrived. They think we deserve success cos we are LFC? Have they been living under a rock for 27 years? We ain't all that special which is why we need someone like Klopp who is a builder and has been successful in building teams to become successful and competitive. But hey, what do I know? I'm just an eternal optimist who believes when there is life, there is hope.
04 Oct 2017 09:31:17
To the OP
Benitez did a decent job at Chelsea winning a EL and securing 3rd place finish inside 6 months! He also won a trophy and regular CL places at Napoli. He had £20 mill to spend every year at Liverpool and lost the plot when he sold Alonso!
04 Oct 2017 09:50:33
I love the man but as a manager again for us, bugger that.
04 Oct 2017 10:23:40
Rafa spent £20m a season?
He spent close to £300m over six seasons Harry. Let's not forget, prices have inflated on a large scale since Rafa's days.
Players who cost £5m back then, they will cost much more now in todays inflated market.
Rafa could not win the League in six seasons Harry. He also went on a dry spell in his last 4 seasons without winning anything.
He did some great things for LFC like sorting out the academy, the work himself and his other half did for the community and still continue to do. CL 2005, nobody will forget that.
Rafa won't be coming back Harry. Let go.
04 Oct 2017 10:39:39
Big clubs won't touch him bingo? Since leaving LFC he's managed Chelsea, Napoli, Inter and Real Madrid. They are all huge clubs and Newcastle aren't exactly a small club either and he's doing a decent job there under the circumstances of working for mike Ashley. I'm not one of the ones who wants him back but come on, show a bit of respect he's still a good coach and a great man. He's won more than us in the time since he left.
04 Oct 2017 11:16:53
Tomo, and he got sacked or let go at every single one of those clubs so you just made my point for me. He went to Chelsea after vowing to never go there as LFC manager which shows he was desperate and frankly, a sellout on that front. NO big clubs would touch him anymore was what I said, which is why he went to Newcastle, got relegated (not his fault) and is now back in the PL. Where did I ever disrespect Rafa in my post? I gave my opinion on him and tho he won us 4 trophies, he did not win a thing in his last 4 seasons and wasted funds on dross players. Not having a go at you, bro BUT I am not interested in extolling his successes cos even within these, his failures are numerous and STILL did not win the PL in his 6 seasons here. Love the man as he has a big heart and all, but that is where it ends for me.
04 Oct 2017 11:22:03
I liked Rafa when he first came, CL 2005 was a huge, huge bonus nobody saw coming, nobody.
FA cup 2006 was decent even though we got lucky in both finals but so what, we won them.
He used to drive me insane with his rotation though and his stubbornness with certain players such as N'Gog. Letting Keane go after 5 months just when he was starting to find his feet.
He wasn't everyone's favourite player, but you couldn't argue with his workrate and his games-goals ratio wasn't bad - one goal every two games at international level is decent and his record for Spurs was about one every two and a half games, not bad for someone who played behind their main Striker at times.
We struggled for goals in the second half of that season 08/ 09 when he was sold far too early, Torres was injured and we only had N'Gog as a back up through Rafa's stubbornness.
He tried offloading Alonso 12 months earlier too and bring Barry in from Villa.
Look, Rafa did a decent job for us (and others) and if he ever comes back, I'll get behind him 100%, but we need to understand that his reign was nearly a decade ago now, stop living in the past, feeling sorry for yourself sitting at your PC/ Laptop and move on. Peace :)
04 Oct 2017 11:51:14
Spot on, OIrish. If people want to wallow in self pity and keep dwelling on the past then pls, have at it. The rest of us will focus on the present and dare to dream for a better future.
04 Oct 2017 12:19:54
Bingo, is there any need for the ridiculous hyperbole in every post you make? Looks like you just enjoy arguing for the sake of it.
04 Oct 2017 17:28:09
Can, you are been harsh there mate just as a was to a rival supporter the other day, bingo posts some good stuff at times lad! And atleast he explains his ways of thinking weather its to others opinion or not.
If you have a problem then atleast explain why you have a problem instead of been a one sentence puppet with no explanation, it certainly would be duller on here without the likes of bingo and others with there's reasons to there thinking but you just want to abuse him why?
04 Oct 2017 19:19:10
Thanks for the compliment, Knuckles. Can, I don't understand your post. Could you pls, explain to me where I used hyperbole in any of my posts on this thread?
04 Oct 2017 22:17:14
Getting back to the point, does nobody remember how boring we were under Rafa? The only exception was 2008/ 2009 when we finished 4pts off Utd after a good run at the end. Otherwise we were awful.
Finished top 4 every season apart from his last (and 2005 but got in the CL anyway) but we were one of the big 4 and everyone else was miles behind. He was way too pragmatic and structured for me.
Give me Klopp's passion and aggression any day of the week. Yes it leads to over exuberance and unpredictability at times but at least it's exciting! I'm loving watching us play right now and hating it at the same time! It's pain and pleasure in equal measure during every 90 minutes but it certainly gets me off my seat!
04 Oct 2017 23:50:24
I don't know why anyone wants to have a go at Rafa or downgrade his achievements.
We won the champions league. There is no higher club achievement. We won it with a squad literally cobbled together after Michael Owen left us high and dry.
Not only that, Rafa Benitez got LFC to be UEFA number 1 ranked team. That's quite an achievement and is no fluke. We were one of the most feared teams in Europe.
He bought us the most exciting striker we've had since Fowler in Torres. He assembled "the best midfield in the world" in Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano AND our defence was so tight our keeper won the golden gloves multiple times in a row.
Make no mistake, Rafa Benitez is an LFC legend and without doubt one of the premier managers in the world today. He has achieved success in multiple leagues with multiple teams.
Do I want him back?
There is no vacancy so there is no discussion for me, end of story.
05 Oct 2017 06:27:33
And the first season Ings lol.
Not having a go at Rafa, just pointing out that we only got 5th in his first season, 04/ 05.
05 Oct 2017 06:35:11
Cannot disagree with anything you said there Ron - good post.
There was a time under Rafa that we went into every European match feeling alomst invincible.
We almost expected to win in games we should have no right to.
That says a lot about the squad he assembled.
His only failing in my (reasonably) realistic head was not getting a good enough backup for Torres when injured/ unavailable.
Not winning the league was a failure in many fans' eyes but not in mine, he came damn close and had us in the top 4 more often than not, as frustrating as it was watching him making unnecessary rotational changes every week.
05 Oct 2017 07:56:30
I was far more confident in Europe with home and away than i was in the league where a draw away and a win at home was not good enough. I also disagree about a great squad. We had a great spine and decent 11 but never had depth. While we had patches of excellent football, i found us predominantly boring under Rafa. That is not to be ungrateful of his achievements or to suggest he isn't a fantastic bloke and very good manager. I very much think both but done is done.
05 Oct 2017 08:34:34
Orlish I did say that about 05 but he won the CL so I gave his a pass on that.
Hey look I liked Rafa but his brand of football was dull and towards the end he made some questionable signings and for me lost the plot a bit. Upto 2009 it seemed like a progression that would lead us to the title but went south quickly after that.
He's a clever guy and a decent manager but would I have him back? Let's say he wouldn't be my first choice.
05 Oct 2017 08:47:15
Ron, I agree with your post bar the part of "Rafa is one of the premier managers around". Nope, that is not true. IMO. I can name several managers who are way better than him right now (Mou, Allegri, Pep, Poch, Sarri, Jardim, Emery, Conte, Zizou just off the top of my head) and he would not even make the top 15-20 right now. He is at Newcastle for a reason as his hey days are LONG gone, bro.
Make no mistake, Rafa is one of the best managers in LFC's history and at one time, he was top 3-5 in Europe. However, he had his own share of mistakes and screw ups that have been mentioned on here. Also, the football he played under us was after a while, quite tedious on the eye and his negative tactics (11 draws in 08/ 09) and stubbornness cost us the PL that season. There is nothing ungrateful about being fair and truthful about someone's record. Nothing at all.
05 Oct 2017 09:16:46
Ingsy, my apologies mate. You're right!
I'm afraid I did what bugs me the most about some posters, I only half read what you posted - it's early in the morning, please forgive me mate :)
Apologies again!
05 Oct 2017 09:23:05
It's such a fine line Bingo isn't it?!
He was so close to delivering the title.
He had the personnel, he had most of the tactics.
It's very difficult to sum up or to compare how good managers are or were.
In my eyes, they're only as good as their players allow them to be - think Rodgers in 13/ 14, Mourinho in his last season at Chelsea, Ranieri at Leicester.
04 Oct 2017 00:36:41
Ed 001 if klopp were to leave what would you think of Gerardo Martino coming in? He has his teams playing great football his season at Barcelona seemed a disaster but he didn't exactly have much time and such big egos.
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{Ed001's Note - are you sure you are not getting him mixed up with Gasperini? Only Martino is head coach of Atlanta United in the MLS. Gasperini is head coach of Atalanta in Serie A. Atalanta are playing some good stuff, I have no idea what Atlanta are doing but I can't imagine anyone in the MLS playing great stuff yet.}
04 Oct 2017 08:51:59
Martino is average and Gasperini was a failure at Inter (tho, they are a basket case) so I would not touch either of them.
04 Oct 2017 11:02:56
Sarri of Napoli would be the man for me but probably very unrealistic if klopp were to leave.
04 Oct 2017 19:20:12
Bob, I would love Sarri as well. He is just like Klopp and plays the exact system we play BUT with a better defence and GK, which always helps.
03 Oct 2017 22:12:57
Question for Ed002 if your about.
When a manager is sacked from a position, is it usual practice for them to continue being payed at a previously stipulated percentage of their contract until they either find another position or the original contract length runs out, or is it usually a one off payment or an option of either? Example of Brendan Rodgers and David Moyes spring to mind with the vast sums mentioned in the media of their payments when made sacked. If any of these are correct, would the same apply to players? For example had Man City fires Tevez when he was refusing to play, would they have had to continue paying him until he found another club?
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{Ed002's Note - Typically they would go pretty much immediately within the constrants of their contract. It is a different situation for players.}
03 Oct 2017 21:41:34
Hi Eds,
Just an idea. Could we have a pinned post on the "Other" page with the current Intergalactic squad just updated when the new positions are chosen? (no responses allowed of course)
Nice idea this btw, liking the discussions :)
Cheers in advance.
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{Ed002's Note - It is complicated by my time.}