Liverpool Banter Archive November 04 2014

04 Nov 2014 22:33:41
Thought we looked decent tonight, without offering any real threat to Madrid's defence. I think borini has earned the right to start against Chelsea, likely alongside Balotelli. Allen will simply get run over. He has had a few years now and just doesn't look like he will ever deliver. I would keep Can and Lucas in starting 11 vs Chelsea, and leave Stevie on the bench. Markovic is one for the future (I hope), as he clearly doesn't offer anything in the present. Finally toure will be responsible for a goal a game, but that is still a better option than Lovren.

04 Nov 2014 23:03:51
Borini needs to show more as a goal threat.

05 Nov 2014 00:28:22
I did not see what Allen did wrong maybe you were watching a different game that I was the midfield looked more compact than it has since the spurs game have to say Lucas was brilliant tonight.

04 Nov 2014 22:13:57
Much much better performance, disappointing result.

Short summary:

1. Touré was excellent apart from Benzema's goal. Was Moreno supposed to mark him?
2. Can & Lucas great combo at CDM
3. Dropping Gerrard give us more legs in midfield. Use him as a sub.
4. Can & Lucas great combo at CDM
5. Allen is a weak passer
6. We look more like a team when Balotelli is off. He's simply overhyped mediocrity. Sell him asap.
7. We desperately need a top top forward.

Let's just hope Brendan saw the same match as we did and doesn't revert to his beloved 4-3-3 with Balotelli as lone CF against Chelsea. YNWA

04 Nov 2014 22:53:39
Tbh, since it was just a containment job, I can read very little into the team's performance as a whole.

I'd only look at the individual performances. Been said on here, Toure, Migs, Can and Lucas all had good games, which is a positive.

I'm not exactly going to get excited about that.

Mourinho does containment jobs all the time against big teams. Why are people moaning? Looks like Rodgers is finally learning.

{Ed001's Note - because Mourinho does that in the hope of snatching a win with his well drilled and strong defence that would never give up such a ridiculously high number of shots in these circumstances. I fear for any fan that isn't moaning about last night, they are clearly so desperate for any sign that we aren't utter dross, that they are accepting barely average as a good thing.}

In our position, that`s prob all we have to hold on to which is quite unfortunate but it is what it is.

04 Nov 2014 22:04:15
It is sad that we lost and that we were toothless, however i did see glimpses of what could become a great game, if we manage to solve some problems.

1. Being clumsy. Lads do their best with pressing, to force oppisition to do mistakes. Opposition makes mistake and ball is ours to take (our player being in better position to claim the ball), then some clumsy move and the ball is back with the opposition + our player is out of position.

2. Vision. 2 episodes in the first half (about the end). First: Manquillo has the ball at the right wing, Borini is undefended and begging for a cross, and that cross did not even need to be very precise. However Manquillo choses to play some tiki backwards or so. Second: Lallana has the ball at the left. Markovic is alone in the middle, 20 yards from goal, nobody even close to defend, and no offside since defenders are all in the left side and closer to the back line. This did not even have to be a cross, a pass could have been enough. But Lallana chose to pass backwards.

And i also think, you may not give stick to Markovic. He was probably the only who could be a treat to opposition, had he some more luck. Any Madrid player is better than any our player, and for the passing game we tried to play, they had both offense and defense outplaying us completely. The only way we could be a menace, was raw speed (forwards vs their defenders, not Bale vs ours. They had that option too, but for us this option was probably the only).
Therefore, as for substitutes, i would have probably brought Sterling for Lallana, and Coutinho for Allen, and kept Markovic on the field. Stevie for Lucas was ok though, for 20 minutes of play.

I thought lallana was excellent, you can't sub him because he chose to pass to someone else.

I think the boys are so hung up on passing and possession hence, an inability to take risks and be brave. This is either due to BR`s tactics or lack of confidence. I`d say both.

04 Nov 2014 21:49:58
Whilst the neggies are sharpening their knives and composing their banners, I would like to take the opportunity to say I'm proud of the lads tonight. Definitely an honourable defeat.

We went up against possibly the best team in the world, at home with certainly some of the best attacking options in Europe. Our paper thin school boy defenders only conceded 1 goal and kept them relatively quiet.
We picked an under strength team and matched them for most of the game.
Up front we were toothless and Borini showed all the endeavour in the world is still not enough without the ability to go with it. If we can fuse Borini's effort with Mario's quality then we have a world class player.

Overall as defeats go, that one will be a confidence booster and could be a turning point for us.

Chavski beware, the reds are on the way back!

The next best thing has to be to play them together?

Ken, I love your post BUT I think u`re a bit harsh on Borini. He had no service from the midfield and fed on sraps the whole game. He needs more games and more service in order to make a fair judgement on his ability. Whe he had service at Sunderland, he scored goals so pls, don`t give up on him yet.

04 Nov 2014 21:37:53
Lucas was excellent.

I hope he was replaced to save his legs for Chelsea.

Borini and Sturridge would cause havoc to a back line.

Anyone hear the fans singing the managers name?

Take note whiners.

Nice touch from the fans. Great to know a lot of fans still believe in him as I do. I`m just afraid he won`t survive if he doesn`t change things. I sure hope he can turn it around.

04 Nov 2014 22:30:25
Got to say I was expecting a battering when I seen the team especially kilo a Martin at the back with real Madrid fast plat but my words kilo played a blinder if he can play 2 games in a row don't mess with that back line . We held our own there tonight and i'm proud of the lads Madrid haven't scored less than 2 since September and that's including a el clasico hope the studge is back for Chelsea but I can see the team starting to click there's a golden sky #ROGERS IN

04 Nov 2014 22:25:35
I love Brendan Rogers. Say what you will. Tear me to pieces. I think sacking him and starting again with someone new would be moronic. We lost Luis Suarez and Sturridge has been injured. I believe we are one top striker short of an amazing squad.

But for now I'm thinking Borini was pretty good as the focal point. He is unselfish and links the play well. In a 4-2-3-1 Balotelli could play on the left with license to roam. He will never be able to lead from the front. Even his agent said so. He should be roaming and drifting freely. Balo is a maverick. Even Mourinho couldn't change him.(finger)

04 Nov 2014 21:45:03
Good showing by the team.

We just need to get a draw from Chelsea so I would play most of the starting 11 tonight against but swap Henderson for Allen and Sterling for Markovic.

I think that team can get a result and maybe steal a goal for three points but on current form of both teams a draw would be a great result.

I want more than a draw vs chelsea.

Good idea, but I would play Markovic on RW, Sterling on LW, Lallana at CAM with Borini up top and keep Henderson on the bench. Can and Lucas look real solid at CDM.

05 Nov 2014 00:35:44
Lucas, Gerrard, hendo.With Gerrard and Henderson going forward with either 1 sitting bk with lucas Henderson has that knack of arriving in the box at the right time I can see his goal tally improving profoundly.

04 Nov 2014 21:42:42
Not a bad performance, passed the ball better, closed down and fought for each other, only negatives are Markovich needs fight for the ball more especially after losing it, just gives up.

Thought Allan was awful, why we paid £25 mill for i will never know, as lastly thought Joe Allen was a total and utter diaster

04 Nov 2014 21:31:48
We've been toothless up front tonight BUT shown a lot of pride, lucas, can and toure have been excellent tonight. Brendan said he doesn't know his best team. Well this lot are miles better than the team that played against newcastle. Just hope that brendan takes some of the players performances tonight into his team decision against chelsea

Not a chance, more proof that Lucas is far better than Gerrard, Lallan must start, Can was excellent but he will revert back to his usual suspects come Chelsea

Toure and Lucas must start next game. Drop Allen for Henderson. Raheen for Markowic.

Agreed- Lucas and Can were very good. Toure was excellent but for the goal. Also thought Mignolet was MotM.

I would almost be tempted to name an unchanged side myself.

04 Nov 2014 20:36:06
Played well so far. Yes we are 1 goal down but we've held our own.

Defended pretty well, midfield are all doing there job but unfortunately until Sturridge is back we have no spark up front.

Think Lucas as played really really well so far. Yes he made a mistake which nearly led to a goal but he break up play better than anyone else we have. How he isn't getting in the team is beyond me.

I don't like to bash players but yet again I'm not impressed with Markovic, I just don't see what he offers.

Hoping for a goal and a good second half.
Come on you reds!

Yes Lucas has played very well
Better take him off.

04 Nov 2014 21:56:44
Maybe BR took Lucas off so he'd be fresh for the weekend?

Oh lol nevermind.

Fresh to keep his backside warm on the bench

04 Nov 2014 20:27:43
the way forward is play borini the kid done more in 40 mins then balo will do in 40 games

04 Nov 2014 20:36:30
really . I must have been watching in a parallel universe.
Not a single chance in the 45 minutes, we had possession and space , just did nothing with it.

04 Nov 2014 20:41:35
So what is he meant to do ? It's not his fault that we can create f all for him to do with. Playing better but still very slow passing and a lot of backwards and forwards.

Borini has ran and chased lost passes helped the team and just got involved what has balo done but wait for the perfect chance and miss sitters what has balo done to deserve to play

04 Nov 2014 21:47:46
You can't accuse Borini of not trying, but his effort usually amounts to nothing. At this stage, all Borini and Balotelli seem to prove when they play is that neither of them should be playing.

Borini is just not good enough mate, admittedly he puts the effort in but he's never going to cut it at the top level

04 Nov 2014 20:19:31
Can.and.lucas having decent games. Creating little

04 Nov 2014 19:44:32
Don't know what everyone is moaning about. We've played our "best players" in almost every game this season and people have been complaining about how poor they've been. Give these lads a chance. It's embarrassing. The commentry on ITV is already up to its high standard of bullfrog.

I only listened to radio before game and hadn't heard line up - way they were talking thought BR had put our under 18s out!

Been pleased way we've played- 1 conceded so far against European champions away who had a strong enough squad to be able to let Di Maria and Alonso go isn't that bad

04 Nov 2014 19:16:41
ed 1 - RE mt poll of the day post i totally agree with you however it be nice to see 100 against.Send out the obvious clear mssage !

04 Nov 2014 19:05:44
Very bizarre line up, surely we shouldn't be throwing in the towel already and making the weekend priority, that's like admitting we're struggling for top four already and we need everything we can get at the weekend, maybe that promise of a title was a silly promise to make
We'll see what happens tonight but I pray we don't get battered and leave us with even less confidence than we already have, I don't think this ones been thought out at all

04 Nov 2014 19:21:12
Famous last words, but I feel encouraged by the line up.

Sometime you just start to feel as if BR wants to go but just preferr to be sacked, I honestly cannot see any other reason for this line up. I am half joking but seriosuly what is this?

{Ed001's Note - I am glad to see Lucas start, but it is clear that no matter how well he plays, there is no chance he will face Chelsea at the weekend.}

I hope Lucas does start against Chelsea. Rest Allen a bit more and push gerrard away from that defence

Lets face it Fanobip it makes no difference what line up BR puts out you are going to slag him off regardless.

04 Nov 2014 18:52:07
Strange team for tonight.

The way we have been playing I don't think any players deserve a rest.

We could get thrashed tonight and at the weekend leaving the whole squad totally demoralised.

You never know though being lfc, no doubt we will deify all the odds and win 6-0 :-)

Don't have much confidence that we can get a win against anyone even with our best side.

I won't mind losing tonight but against Chelsea after all the players rested BR hasn't given himself any excuses.

04 Nov 2014 18:45:55
Tell me i, m seeing things with that line up !! Changes required but rather extreme !

04 Nov 2014 18:28:43
In the 30 years of following our club, never have I assumed we are going to lose a game as much as this game tonight. Is it just me?

And as I'm typing I've just heard the team sheet and it did not make me feel any better. :-).

04 Nov 2014 18:40:35
I felt like that when United played bayern last year, after I felt a lot more confident for the return leg.

Just saying.

In nearly 20 years of following Liverpool I have never assumed the manager is expecting to lose as much as tonight.

His team selection says as much!

04 Nov 2014 17:58:18
Hey fellas
Well, i want to tell you about a young 15 year old ardent Liverpool fan. He is also a budding Hockey player (mad goalkeeper). He has been diagnosed with Chronic Osteomyelitis (after waiting 15 months for an Mri scan, the great NHS!) which is a severe infection in his femur. He has had his operation to get as much of the infection out and has now started a course of antibiotics for 3 months with a long stint on hospital and months in a knee brace. At this time the future is sketchy as to how well the hole in his femur heals. Through all this he keeping his head up and a smile on his face. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?. So i would appreciate if you guys to send him some get well soon messages before tonights game to make him chuckle before the smile gets wiped of his face at about 10 tonight! He is of course my Son Ben. Thanks for reading.

{Ed002's Note - I am pretty sure all hockey goalkeepers are mad Ben. I, and all of the Eds, wish you a full recovery. Take care not to do too much to soon and take the time to gradually work back to full fitness. I appreciate it is hard thing and a long haul, but if you would like we can set you up a Blog on here so you can let everyone know on a day-by-day basis how the recovery is going. I am sure that won't be a problem to figure out. Until then you can sit back and watch Liverpool improve. Chelsea at home at the weekend has to be a winnable game, but far from easy. Good luck tonight.}

Ben, Heres hoping you a speedy recovery.
Love that smile of yours.

04 Nov 2014 18:38:59
Hope u get better soon mate, I hope u do set up a blog on here.

I know it's not the same but when I was younger I done my cruciate stunting my football dramatically (played in goal). For 8 months I couldn't run and when I could I pushed it too early and ended up doing it again, so please take it easy. I promise those dark times get easier and better (even if u are a pool fan) lol.

I'm sure if it wernt for that I'd have been in goal for United now (well that and I seemed to stop growing after 14 & stayed 5'8 lol)

Anyways I'm rambling, just get well soon.

Chris (utd fan)

Good luck with the recovery Ben. Just concentrate on getting healthy, Hockey and Football will happily wait for you to get back to 100%.

Best wishes to you Ben from Ireland

Alright Ben, I wish you a very speedy recovery. Hopefully a LFC win tonight will make make you smile big time.

Best wishes Ben stay strong buddy.

Hi Ben I had a knee operation myself and I know how painful and a tedious process this could be, watch liverpool and it will make you feel better. Get well soon.

04 Nov 2014 17:34:00
Hi ed, just a quick one if you had time? I saw a while back you posted a couple of times the different fees that were involved for completing a transfer of a player between clubs, this was very informative and shows just how complicated these things actually are.

My question is ( not asking for any figures or specific amounts ), if a club is interested in signing a player, who does that club contact first? Does the buying club contact the proposed selling club and enquire? or do they approach the agent and see if the player is interested in the move?
Thanks very much!

{Ed002's Note - A good question Molly and one where I can give you a pretty decent answer I hope. It starts like most in football with "it depends".

Way back in history, many transfers were the subject of phone calls between fur coat wearing and cigar smoking chairmen and managers with deals being done almost without reference to the players themselves. Deals were signed at motorway service stations and players would be given a rail ticket and the address of their digs up north, together with some change for a bag of chips. A few at a higher-level still operate this way and some managers still favour the direct involvement and the phone (Harry Redknapp for one). But in near all cases this is now history.

For many, many years buying clubs would typically approach and informally ask an agent (a) if the player is going to be available, and (b) would the player consider a move to the club. There may also be some broad discussion on the sort of deal that would be offered. If the answer is yes, it is then necessary for the club )possibly with the agent) to approach the player's club to ask if they would be willing to sell and if they would grant permission to speak to a player's agent on a formal basis and possibly even the player about actually making a move. This will typically involve either broadly (through an offer) or actually agreeing a fee with the player's club and responsibility for any significant costs (agents fees etc.). Once this has happened the club will be able to speak to the player's agent and perhaps the player himself to look at the package that will be involved and the contract itself. In some cases the clubs will agree the transfer which the buyer negotiates with the agent and then with the seller. This is what occasionally results in the press or whoever saying "terms could not be agreed". Much also depends in such cases on the way certain clubs do business. Certain continental clubs (particularly in Italy) who will drag these things out. However, this remains the most common methodology.

In recent years we have seen selling clubs making an agent aware that a player will be available and asking them to broker a deal wherever they can. This leads to agents (and representatives and hangers on) making unsolicited approaches to clubs to see if they would be interested in their players ("you want Mario Balotelli Mr Ashley?).

Keep in mind that many players are looked at and discussed at a high-level with agents and clubs; a subset of those have an offer placed; a subset of those involve discussions with the player's club; a subset of those involve discussions over terms, and; a subset of those go ahead.

As a quick refresher, transfer fees, what is paid by the buying club would typically include:

(a) Transfer fee - the big number.
(b) Any levy applied by the local FA – 5% for the EPL.
(c) Tax due on the transfer fee – typically this will be VAT (at varying rates across Europe) some or all of which should be reclaimable.
(d) Agent fees – this may be to one or more agents (as an example, Liverpool have spent £25M plus VAT on agent fees over the past three years leading to this window).
(e) Tax due on the agent fees – typically this is VAT at the local rate where the agent bills from – it is not reclaimable.
(f) Intermediary fees – this may be to one or more sponging leeches (what do you mean you have a super agent?) .
(g) Tax due on the Intermediary fees – typically this is VAT at the local rate where the Intermediary bills from – it is not reclaimable.
(h) Signing on fee to the player (possibly including non-reclaimable VAT if the player is VAT registered).
(i) Legal fees.
(j) VAT on legal fees which is reclaimable.
(k) Moving/relocation costs for the player.
(l) VAT on moving/relocation costs which is reclaimable.
(m) Paying up insurance costs to the selling club (sometimes waived).

What is paid by the selling club would typically include:

(a) If the player is under 24, a Solidarity contribution paid to his previous clubs responsible for his training - this is 5% of the transfer fee received.
(b) Any monies owed to the player if he did not request a transfer – again this is 5% of the transfer fee received.
(c) Any monies owed to the player in terms of his contract (typically outstanding owed wages (not future wages) and bonuses).

04 Nov 2014 18:14:37
Very informative Ed. In a side note, do you know of any "star" players who don't operate with an agent these days?

{Ed002's Note - There are fewer and fewer because agents are offering complete packages for players - tax advice, lifestyle advice and any other type of advice these leeches can provide to manipulate the careers of players. There have been a number of calls for clubs to provide such advice until players are 21. Some players have their father or brother advise, but that is oft in the framework of some larger level of representation. Nic Anelka is one example of a player not interested in agents.}

05 Nov 2014 05:11:14
Hi again Ed002,

Firstly, thank you very much for the excellent and (again)informative response. Again it shows how complicated these matters are, and why some transfers of players could seem to be "dragging on", and also why some transfers do eventually not go through.

I also realise that unfortunately some transfers are not done to the letter of the law, (less so now, thankfully) and it is very interesting to know how things are meant to be done.

I must thank you again as your response was very informative, and it has showed how the times have changed. I honestly was under the impression that even at the highest level, that the manager/head coach/chairman of the team would still be involved as the main go between the clubs ( like the excellent fur coats and cigar reference) but again it seems like with all new roles at football clubs, (director of football etc) and influx of agents and "super-agents" that managers are involved less and less.

Thanks again Ed002, extremely thorough response to my question, and you have answered anything further I could ask.

Thanks for your time!

Cheers!

{Ed002's Note - No problem Molly.}

04 Nov 2014 16:02:03
Not expecting a result with our form and defensive issues but what I want to see at the very least is desire. I watched lovren and Johnson pulling out of a few challenges and I wasnt the happiest.
Sterling needs played through the.middle and not the wing and i'd like to see lallana and can start and a few at the back dropped but it won't happen. Heres hoping to enjoy a few beers with a good game

04 Nov 2014 13:34:09
Everybody should stop being so harsh on Rodgers. Yes he's not getting us playing the way we want but there is a lot of new signings. It took Rodgers time to get Hendo to the level he is at. Give him time to do the same with the likes of Can, Markovic and although Moreno has been decent under Rodgers he can improve further. Forget Mario the Liverpool team were smoking chronic that day. Just give him more time, Alex Furguson was on the verge of being sacked if he did not win the FA cup final and he did, he kept his job and went onto become one of the best if not the best manager in the world.

04 Nov 2014 12:07:57
Hi Ed002,

Just saw one of your comments that Liverpool payed an outrageous amount of money to a particular agent which I'm guessing is the agent of one of the players we signed over the summer window. Could you please enlighten us on who's agent that is (and maybe how much we paid him if that's a sensible question)?

{Ed002's Note - It was Balotelli's agent Mino - I am not going to get in to amounts.}

I find it concerning that the club continues to get themselves into situations where they pay substantial amounts in agent fees.

Just a question over our summer window Ed, you've mentioned that the club was well aware that Suarez would be sold this past window but did they plan for his departure too late? From the outside looking in it looked like the club left it too late and were left with few options. There were the links to Alexis and by the time his move to Arsenal was confirmed, it was like we went from Bony to Remy (still baffled by this one) to Eto'o and then Mario.

I recognise that there's a big difference between identifying a target and actually getting that target but a suitable striker (not necessarily a big name) had to be a priority this summer.

{Ed002's Note - That has to be a question for Brendan.}

End of the day: if a player don't want to move to us, but prefer London, then it's very little you can do. (Except if you can throw 32 Fantazilion dollars after them)

04 Nov 2014 10:32:12
I was OK with Kelly leaving. He had a few chances but looked like the injuries had sent him backwards. I wish him well.

The one I don't understand is Wisdom. He looks as good a player as Manquillo to me. Similar in style, calm on the ball, defensively sound, positionally decent and gets forward well. Neither are in the same league as Johnson as an attacker, but they don't turn the ball over cheaply as much either.

I would have preferred we gave Wisdom the opportunities Manquillo is getting. I think the Spaniard is doing well, but it was a risk we didn't need, to replace a No. 2 full back with a similar version, but with no senior football under his belt.

Maybe the view was Wisdom will get more games at WBA than he might have with us, but it is with a team with a different playing style. Maybe that is the point. Let him get different experience.

I just think he should have been playing for us when Manquillo is right now.

I'm guessing the idea was to get wisdom more game time than he would get under Johnson.
Manquilo then brought in as a low risk option for cover as flanno would be covering both left and right back.
When Johnson goes we will have our pick of 3 youngish right backs to pick from and decent cover.
I disagree about Johnson being a decent attacker though, 5 years ago maybe.

We didn't even get to see Kelly after his injuries, unless you count the pre season with the kids

Wisdom and Kelly are miles better than Johnson offensively. Both have far better delivery, are much better in possession, and offer a set piece threat; all whilst being better defensively. Johnson just attacks so much that he's bound to do something right eventually. Every now and then even a blind pig snorts up a truffle!

And all the under 21 games he played in and was poor in

04 Nov 2014 12:39:59
I think Mikey is right. Not that I agree with the thinking but I agree that was probably the thought process used

Thanks hjinkle, I should have pointed out that I don't agree either but that's what I think was going through Brendan's head.
He was completely overthinking and overspending I suspect.

04 Nov 2014 09:42:31
Hi Eds, what's the deal with Sturridge? appernatly we went with the team to Madrid and when BR asked if he will play he said unlikely (rather than 'no way') which suggests he may at least possibly be fit for the Chelsea game (I also read somewhere he is expected to undergo late fitness test today still). I guess BR may be tempted to rest him against Chelsea and take advantage of the international break for him to be 100% fit but I start to feel that with Sturridge because he gets injured very easily even in training, and it is not necessarily about overload maybe the right thing is to take advantage on any moment he is fit and play him then in these windows of fitness if he can play (I am sure even if he plays against Chelsea Hodgson will not take him to the national team on the International break so that is not an issue).

In any case, I don't envy the guy. The amount of expectations on him when he is back, to solve all our problems, can cause him a shoulder injury.

{Ed001's Note - he was set for a late fitness test, not sure if that plan has changed today on arrival. So long as he has had no ill effects from the travel, I would expect it still to be the case.}

04 Nov 2014 07:52:33
If only you could sign Alexis Sanchez.

If only arsenal had signed Ibra or Yaya all those years ago

I just read an article stating that Arsenal got Sanchez for 3million less than what Liverpool offered for him.
I understand why he wanted to go to Arsenal.
No problem with that.
Should we not have just said. swap deal + cash for Suarez or we'll keep him for another year.
On the outside looking in it seems we are a soft touch.

04 Nov 2014 09:22:37
if a player doesn't want to go to a certain club,he just says no,just like borini said no to sunderland,its nice to see the notion of conscripted forced labour is still alive and well on this page

Yeah, we would be a whole 3 points better off than we are now.

Conscripted forced labour and footballers in the same sentence.Wow.

Ohh the poor little players on their multi-million pound contracts. Let's have a whip round for them!!
Word. What world do you live in?