Liverpool Banter Archive November 03 2017

03 Nov 2017 20:07:05
Good evening Ed's and fellow Reds

Just thought id mention this for those who may not be aware, but there is a new documentary on Bill Shankly called Natures Fire, Sunday12th November. I think it's on BBC 2

Regards.

03 Nov 2017 21:56:46
That should be really good.
Thanks for sharing!

03 Nov 2017 23:09:39
Nice one thanks for the head's up mate.

03 Nov 2017 11:00:50
Hi. Question for Ed 25 if available,

Who is the best man to take over from Koeman at the blues?

Would David Wagner be an option? that would give the Derby a different slant or should they give Moyes another chance?

{Ed025's Note - moyes would be the last person on gods earth i would want back at everton der and allardyse would be second, wagner i like but its a bit too early to tell with him as he has only been here 5 minutes so a no for me, i would take dyche as he is experienced in the prem and his teams are hard to beat, but i would like it to be a short term appointment at first as its unclear how far he can take us in the future, myself i would prefer tuchel but it looks unlikely at the moment mate..

03 Nov 2017 17:13:03
The Wolves manager was first choice but he as already turned it down.

03 Nov 2017 18:30:08
Why would Wagner leave Huddersfield to go to Everton, who could be relegated this season, unless they start winning a few games .

04 Nov 2017 02:30:35
HUddersfield will finish above Everton this season. Would be career suicide for Wagner to got o Everton now. His team are playing well at the moment, so why leave that to take up a big headache like Neverton now?

04 Nov 2017 03:11:06
Actually Eddie Howe will be good choice for them.

04 Nov 2017 08:05:17
Relaxabrudder - As a Liverpool fan I'd say Eddie Howe would be good for them, If I was an Everton fan I wouldn't lol he's not at that level imo.

04 Nov 2017 23:14:03
I agree Wagner would be a risk but on a short term deal might be worth a punt or Marko Silva who's teams play good football
I find it strange that they sacked Koeman without having a short list of replacements made,

Things must have been really bad behind the scenes as they are still paying his wages,

03 Nov 2017 15:11:43
Just back from hospital and greeted with the news that emre is probably leaving on a free transfer. We really are a complete mess. Anyone who does not rate emre answer me this why are teams that are substantially better than us like juventus and Bayern after Emre. He's our best midfielder, he should be starting in the 6 ahead of hendo who is way too passive on the ball. Remember when Hendo was injured, who carried the midfield to the top 4? Emre.

03 Nov 2017 15:20:24
He is a good player mate. However if he doesn't want to be here and he doesn't suit the advanced roles in Klopp's system well enough to take us up a level, we should let him move on for our own good and fir his career, surely?

Ridiculous we could lose him on a free though. He is a £40m player in todays market!

03 Nov 2017 15:30:42
You can’t force anyone to sign a new contract if they don’t want to.

03 Nov 2017 15:59:55
Mk he should be playing in the 6 instead of hendo. He plays incisive passes, dominates the opposition and he's not afraid of being physical. With hendo in the 6 he takes no responsibility, plays it safe and the position just does not suit him.

03 Nov 2017 16:02:21
I can never decide how much I rate him when he’s good he can boss a game when poor though he is dire, if he played regularly in the number 6 role I think he could have been the answer there. Anyhow good luck to him when he does leave he’ll look good if he ends up in Serie A with bit more time on the ball.

03 Nov 2017 16:10:05
Firstly it’s hardly news, secondly Keita is his replacement and it’s a much better player.
I like Can and his ambition in particular but our midfield has been terrible this season, all of them are pretty much expendable.

03 Nov 2017 16:12:53
But he doesn't want to play in the holding role. I agree with you that he should be, but he sees himself playing further forward and what can we do about that? He doesn't press well enough so he therefore doesn't suit the way Klopp wants to play.

Great young midfielder with a massive future wherever he goes, but it's time for both parties to move on i think.

03 Nov 2017 16:14:46
Actually Sakho is boss Henderson has played more long passes and key passes than any other Liverpool midfielder so I’m not quite sure what games you are actually watching. Henderson does not play it safe.

03 Nov 2017 16:57:11
Smeg Head lay off the glue mate, your stats are wrong, also you do realise in the 6 compared to playing in the advanced midfield options it is substantially easier to play it forward as you are passing from deeper. Hendo sits in front of Matip Lovren and passes it to the full back who is marginally higher up the pitch than him. He is passive and takes no responsibility to play an incisive pass which breaks the oppositions midfield lines. Go and watch Jorginho/ diawara/ Weigl the list goes on and you’ll see how a 6 actually is supposed to play. I’d recommend you watch a different sport if you think hendo is great in the deeper midfield option.

03 Nov 2017 17:24:11
Sakho is boss, I never said Henderson was great in the deeper midfield position, you are reading what you want to read. I just said you were wrong with some of your statements which clearly have no basis, you need to calm down.
What do you mean my stats are wrong? Do you know where they came from? I can tell you where they came from, do you have any stats to back up your claim that Can plays more incisive passes than Henderson? I doubt it.
Why are you bringing Weigl, Jorginho into this conversation? This is about Can and Henderson and you trashing Henderson because you don’t think he is good enough.

03 Nov 2017 17:33:11
Sahko, I've been a true Can fan since he signed for us and I roasted BR for always playing him out of position which was not helpful to him. He has come on leaps and bounds since Klopp took over, to the point that a big and successful club like Juve want him at all costs. That said, Klopp does not see him as either a no. 6 or a no. 8 on a consistent basis and there is a good argument to be made for that.

Keita and Lallana are better in that position and will be the one (s) to take his place. I am gutted he is leaving BUT at the end of the day, there is a good argument to be made as to why Klopp does not rate him long term. I may agree or disagree with that BUT I understand both men and their stances. Two things can be right at the same time.

03 Nov 2017 17:52:38
Was only this time last year people were all over Can about how he wasn't good enough.

But let's be honest here., he was offered a contract and so far has refused to sign. What do you waht us to do, pay him 250k a week? Sorry but no and even if we did I doubt he's stay!

Sakho is clueless (both in defence and on here) Henderson by his own admission is having a slow season but don't talk crap lad.

His range of passing is far better than you make out. Again, not having the best season but he has been involved in the making of so many goals for Liverpool and wilp continue to be.

Yeah for sure he has missed forward runs and the chance to play someone in too many times this season but don't use the old bollocks comment of sideways passes stutters our play.

A midfielders role first and foremost is to win possesion and help keep it. Sideways passing is part of football. Keep possession and it gives someone further up the field a chance to make some space before playing a forward ball.

I honestly think some peoppe just like to moan for the sake of moaning.

Henderson hasn't been great at all this season. But none of our midfield have been any better than him. In fact, the whole team have been sleep walking far too much this season.

Lastly you shouldn't have been too surprised with the news of Emre. He always wanted to leave.

Listen to an interview with klopp from towards end of last season.

He said that by qualifying for the champs league doesn't just open up potential signings it also helps sway our current players to signing new deals.

The deal was offered to Emre, champs league was secured but he has decided he wants to go play elsewhere. Good luck to him but I believe we have signed a much better all round player in Naby Keit so I don't think he will be missed at all.

Time will tell I suppose.

03 Nov 2017 18:32:26
Smeg head, just to further prove my point once again. Stats from Simon Brundish on twitter, great account.
Emre Can has 3 goals, 3 assist, 3 passes proceeding an assist (hockey assist in 1159min
Rest of midfield: (not including coutinho who's played in the front 3 predominantly)
4439min
3 goals
5 assists
2 hockeys
Yet emre leaving is fine hahahah. He's our best midfielder.

03 Nov 2017 18:39:19
But if Can wants to go, and Klopp will let him go, then why o why are we not looking to sell him and get a decent fee for him .

{Ed001's Note - because we can't get a decent fee and we need him this season.}

03 Nov 2017 18:52:00
Excellent work Sakho, so I guess Can should be played further forward because he scores goals and creates goals! Oh wait isn’t that where he already plays?

{Ed001's Note - I wouldn't bother, anyone who thinks 10 games is enough of a sample size to be 'proof' of anything clearly does not understand stats at all.}

03 Nov 2017 19:02:58
Sakho i don't know what them stats prove, other than the obvious point that Can generally plays further forward than Henderson, Wijnaldum or Milner. That is his style of play. He breaks into the final third looking for goals and flicks.

No body is doubting his ability on the ball. The point is that when we don't have possession he doesn't press effectively because he isn't mobile enough. He is quick in a straight line, strong on the ball, and he is improving every week. That doesn't mean he is suited to our style of play. He also takes too many touches at times which allows opposition defences to get back into shape. That's fine if you have a big powerful team or world class, intricate footballers who can play through a low block, but we don't. We have players with pace and movement who can quickly pounce on a gap in the defence. You can't pounce quickly when Can takes 4 touches to set himself, runs 10-15 yards, cuts back and then plays a pass square 9/ 10 times. Can needs to be playing deeper so he can pick the ball up there and drive at teams. But he doesn't want to have the defensive responsibilities. We don't play with two holding midfielders though so how is that going to work?

He doesn't suit the system. Keita will press better and makes decisions much faster on the ball so it suits him better picking up possession higher up the pitch. That doesn't suit Can. Not saying he is bad. He is a great player so he has adapted to cope, but it is not his natural game and Keita will do the same job to a higher standard.

03 Nov 2017 19:22:08
Just further stats to prove my point. Bayern and juve are after him, henderson wouldn’t even come into consideration for either clubs.

{Ed001's Note - the only thing it proves is that you hate Henderson. You really are just coming across as a dick. What are you trying to prove? Right now you are just proving you know nothing about stats or how to understand them.}

03 Nov 2017 19:56:33
Can’t voice my opinion on the site unless I agree with the general consensus. Also I’ll use stats to back my point, they are correct, well researched and highlight Emre’s impact on the team.

{Ed001's Note - has anyone stopped you voicing your opinion? I can see your posts on the site, so clearly not, so what are you whining about?

Again you fail to understand the use of stats. You provided no context to them, so rendered them utterly useless. Even with context, you used them from too small a sample size, so again they are utterly useless. If you have not got the wherewithal to understand them and how to use them, it is best just not to bother. Any statistician will tell you that you need much more than 10 to rule out aberrations or blips. Any decent statistician will tell you that they are no more than a small guide if you use them over one season, let alone 10 games alone. Then there is the fact that your stats were utterly useless as they do not relate only to when Can plays the role that Henderson does. If you can't understand that then I am wasting my time talking to you as you are just wasting everyone's time with a lack of understanding.}

03 Nov 2017 20:00:28
Sakho talking like hendo never plays a forward pass. This kind of rhetoric is primate simple, unhelpful and simply just not true!

I like Can and hope it can bebe ffigured out. My thoughts are that in 2019 Can and Keita form the core of our first choice midfield. And at 25 he will be entering his prime. Unfortunately it doesn't work as simply as that and it looks like there will won't be an agreement.

03 Nov 2017 20:15:15
Think we’ll have to agree to disagree. The sample size is irrelevant, I’m using what is available currently. I respect your opinion on most players etc. Also this isn’t a Emre vs hendo discussion, this is a discussion regarding Emre compared to the other midfielders. I have a huge understanding of both stats and football so you suggesting otherwise is laughable.

03 Nov 2017 20:38:20
Unfortunately Sakho you say Can should be played as a 6 and then back this up with stats that prove that he’s is better nearer to the opposition goal.

04 Nov 2017 00:34:09
Sakho you are having a giggle mate. Can is sometimes good but sometimes awful and when he’s bad he’s really bad. Whether down to his age or not he is currently too inconsistent to say he’s our best midfielder. I like the runs he makes bursting through the lines but his passing is nothing special and he gets caught out of position a lot. Decent player but not in the starting line up when everyone is fit simply because you’re never sure exactly which Can will turn up.

04 Nov 2017 07:58:11
He is sometimes good but sometimes awful and when he's bad he's really bad? Haven't you just described all of our midfielders in that sentence Ings.

04 Nov 2017 08:34:05
Not at all. Hendo and Wiji are as consistent as it gets. You could argue whether you like them as players but you always know what you’re going to get from them.

04 Nov 2017 09:15:59
Hendo and Wiji are as consistent as it gets. 🤦🏻‍♂.

03 Nov 2017 14:24:49
Ed 001 obviously Liverpool is the team you support but are there any others teams you Like? Or look out for? Who's your top 5 favourite teams right now?

{Ed001's Note - Liverpool, Liverpool U23s, Liverpool U18s etc. I don't know how anyone can support two teams it is odd.}

03 Nov 2017 14:57:52
Top 5 favourite teams? Never heard that one before!

03 Nov 2017 15:01:23
Ed001 as your about mate just want to ask you two questions please. Do you think it'll be January or summer for Couthino to go? And realistically what sum would you guess we will get for him?
Thanks Ed001.

{Ed001's Note - probably January as he is hindering the team and I have no idea.}

03 Nov 2017 15:07:17
I think a lot of it depends on where you're from. I'm not from Liverpool so I've grown up always keeping an eye out for Northampton Town, Rushden and Diamonds, MK Dons and Kettering Town. I wouldn't say I'm a supporter or a fan, but i like seeing them do well because if they made the Premier League one day, I'd have a local Liverpool away day to go to!

Aside from that, i quite like Derby in the Championship but only because they used to take at least one of our players on loan every season such as Wisdom or Ibe. Again though, not a fan. I also don't mind Blackburn Rovers because of the mutual Kenny Dalglish love.

As for the European teams, i have always followed Ajax casually because of the football they play, Leverkusen whilst Hyypia was there but not much since he was sacked, and Roma who are my favourite team after LFC.

I just love football regardless of the country or level. So i tend to have a favourite team in every single league 😂 Liverpool are the only team where i class myself as a supporter though. I'd say I'm a Roma fan, but not a supporter. I like to see them win, but don't care if they lose. Liverpool are my life. I am in a bad mood when we lose pretty much until we next win!

When talking about Liverpool I'd say "we" but when talking about any other club i say "they". I think you can like other teams Ed001, but i don't think you can be a true supporter of more than one team unless there is absolutely no chance they could ever face each other competitively.

03 Nov 2017 15:08:24
Ed01, Don't support Liverpool Ladies FC? It has to be the top priority!

{Ed001's Note - any team playing for Liverpool, men, women, kids whatever, has my support mate.}

03 Nov 2017 15:19:38
My Italian team was always Parma, their team in the mid to late 90’s was superb.

03 Nov 2017 15:38:04
Has he became disruptive to the squad Ed?

{Ed001's Note - depends on what you mean by become.}

03 Nov 2017 15:40:22
I;m with Ed here, Liverpool and Liverpool only.

03 Nov 2017 15:55:59
Up to this year I was a bray wanderers season ticket holder though I've stepped away because of the heart breaking drama at the club- I'll say no more. But I've always had Liverpool as my first team since I was a young one.

03 Nov 2017 15:57:18
Ah gotcha Ed.

03 Nov 2017 16:15:38
Although I don’t support another team as such I sometimes like to watch other teams if I like the way they play for example or if I like how one of their players plays, I used to watch a lot of arsenal games back when they where good to watch, I used to watch a lot of Barcelona games for Messi as I really like watching him play, Bayern for their set up etc.

03 Nov 2017 17:37:26
I support Real Madrid, OM and AC Milan in addition to Liverpool HOWEVER, I started supporting these teams from the early 90's while I have supported LFC since the 90's.

03 Nov 2017 18:53:44
Ed 001, if Coutinho is moved on in January, do you expect us to push for Keita or another player or use players from within the club?
Happy Friday.

{Ed001's Note - I still expect us to try and sign a replacement.}

03 Nov 2017 19:15:55
Most of ireland is an English club then celtic.

03 Nov 2017 19:30:38
Haha spot on Irish scouse- Liverpool, bray and then Celtic.

03 Nov 2017 21:03:04
Is it wrong to support Liverpool and Tranmere?

04 Nov 2017 11:36:40
As a kid we always had an English team and a Scottish team growing up so Aberdeen I always had a soft spot for (must have been teams playing in red), funnily enough when Fergie was manager. Clyde I also had a soft spot for, no idea why though.
I do have a soft spot for Dortmund as well, partly due to Klopp but mainly due to their yellow wall and the atmosphere it creates as well as being similiar to us in having less cash than their rivals (for Munich see Utd) but still expected to be on a par with them.

03 Nov 2017 14:07:01
hearing klopp saying that mane could face west ham would give the squad a boost if it's true think west ham are there for the taking hopfully the lads can get the 3 points and close the gap to fourth place with arsenal plying city and Chelsea v United.

03 Nov 2017 17:38:53
I don't think Mane will play tmrw, Redsteve. However if he is say on the bench for that game then for sure, he will play a part. I just don't see it right now.

03 Nov 2017 18:47:49
I can see Mane coming on for maybe 10 mins, what a boost to see him back .

03 Nov 2017 09:52:27
Hi eds, I was wondering if any of you knew why Klopp doesn’t rate can? Personally for me is ok, but can be slow on the ball and take too many touches and not move it quick enough.

Thanks in advance.

{Ed001's Note - there you go, you have answered your own question really. The other thing is that Klopp feels he does not run enough chasing and pressing.}

03 Nov 2017 10:08:41
I also feel we have very similar midfielders to him, where as I think Keita is more like Lallana better, quicker and more direct with and on the ball.

03 Nov 2017 10:53:28
As he's got older it's become apparent that Emre Can is caught in two minds.

He has everything needed to develop into a holding player, or a box to box player. I don't think Can, or Klopp know which though. That is a major concern for a 23 year old. The problem is he lacks defensive awareness and discipline to play a holding role and has shown no signs of wanting to learn it. Whereas in a box to box role, he can go missing and end up running about like a headless chicken.

He is still a good player. However at Liverpool he has become a utility player and i think for the good of his career, he needs to move on and find a club and manager who will pick him for one position and let him make it his own. I don't think he truly fits Klopp's style of play.

He just doesn't want to play in the deeper role, and Look at his competition for the other positions! Lallana; perfect for Klopp's gegenpress. Henderson; Captain and also a great presser. Gini; a Klopp signing who he trusts in the big games. Keita; our club record signing. Factor in that Arnold, Woodburn, Oxlade Chamberlain and Ejaria all want to play there long term as well!

What chance does Can have?

03 Nov 2017 11:19:00
And the fact he wants the same wage as Coutinho!

{Ed001's Note - wages are not the issue at all.}

03 Nov 2017 11:21:49
Ed01, Do you agree with Klopp assessment?

{Ed001's Note - only in that he is not suited to the way Klopp is looking to play, but I think you have to fit the style of play around the players.}

03 Nov 2017 11:32:02
We will regret letting him go for free.

03 Nov 2017 12:18:52
He has talent but at 23 years old still does not have a defined skill set and a lot of holes in his game, with no sight in him improving on any one particular position or style of play.

03 Nov 2017 12:34:27
Milner, lallana, hendo to me are all 3 players who over the next 2 seasons I believe will phase out of the team. Injuries and age will take a toll on these guys particularly lallana and hendo as they bust a gut but their bodies seem a bit fragile. I think that inevitably this time next year we'll be looking to reinforce the midfield again and really think it'd be a shame to lose Can.

03 Nov 2017 12:40:51
I think when can plays well, he's exceptional. There are days when he just dominates the midfield. I do think it's down to where klopp plays him and who his partner is though- which is worrying. I think he dithers on the ball when there's no options around him- always looking for the forward pass is his downfall. It's frustrating because he could be our defensive answer if he could learn a little discipline.

03 Nov 2017 13:06:08
I’ll be very sad to see him go. I think in a slower league he’ll look outstanding. At times for us you think wow that guy has got something about him, other times he looks cumbersome. Maybe we’d never see the best of him in the PL who knows, but I’m sure in Italy and international football he’s going to be outstanding.

03 Nov 2017 13:32:12
Faithinworks, the midfielders you mentioned that will be phased out over the next few years will be replaced by youngsters already at the club like Grujic and Woodburn. There won't be a midfield overhaul anytime soon.
And no point on holding onto a player who does not want to be here or Klopp does not rate.

03 Nov 2017 13:55:44
I think it’s pretty clear our midfield looks completely different with Hendo, Gini and Lallana in together vs. when we play the likes of Can or even Coutinho/ Milner in there.

The first three (especially with Firmino, Mane and Salah upfront) are natural pressing machines who swarm the opposition and have the agility, energy and read of the game to break down play and block the channels in a way that we just don’t look like doing when we have Can (lacking the same agility) and Milner (a bit headless) on the pitch. Same reason we just don’t look the same when we play Sturridge upfront IMO. Leave any half gaps and a top opposition can bypass the press and get at your back 4 and destroy you. exactly what happened at Tottenham.

Keita I think will fit exactly into Hendo/ Gini/ Lallana mould and I think Klopp is hoping to see those 4 become his blend of aggressive pressing and ball carriers on the turnover. Ox and Woodburn will probably try develop in a similar mound given time.

I really like Can too, but to Ed’s point, I don’t think he’s suited to the model which Klopp is wanting to play, which is at least partly why we’ve adapted to play a very deep midfielder and sometimes even more of a back 3 when in possession in recent weeks. For me he suits a more structured, deeper defence and probably a 4-2-3-1 where he can make use of his ability to charge forward knowing he has cover.

The problem is I think Grujic might have a similar problem unless he learns to develop into a true no.6.

03 Nov 2017 08:20:22
Is ward fit? I've seen him in the training pics.

{Ed002's Note - Ward is available.}

03 Nov 2017 01:02:51
Hi eds, with recent instability in Catalonia affecting Barca's UCL and la lit a status, and worst case Messi leaving and even Suarez. Will Coutinho still want to join Barca? Seriously what is left of Barcelona without MSN?

{Ed001's Note - it really is irrelevant, Coutinho wants to go.}

03 Nov 2017 08:09:10
He needs to go now to he’s not been playing well which says everything. Get the money move on.

03 Nov 2017 08:20:28
I asked Ed002 about a week ago and he said it won't have any impact on Spanish football. Which is good in my opinion. Much as i hate Barcelona for destabilising our best players every season (Mascherano, Reina, Suarez and now Coutinho) i don't want them to end up struggling because of non-football politics.

{Ed002's Note - In answer to the original question, Coutinho is still desparate to leave for Barcelona and has been speaking to other players about it - and they are happy to sell Suarez but not Messi.}

03 Nov 2017 08:28:22
Longthing76 - I'm with you there mate, he really hasn't impressed this season, his heart doesn't seem in it, we're best off cashing in on him.

03 Nov 2017 08:28:37
Ed, you've just opened a can of worms there mate 😂 prepare for at least 50 posts asking if Suarez could sign for Liverpool 😂.

03 Nov 2017 09:45:48
So what your saying is Barcelona are going to offer Suarez and £75m for coutinho in the summer Ed002? 😉.