Liverpool Banter Archive March 02 2015

02 Mar 2015 19:53:18
Bless. Listening to radio 5 live. Quoting Nietzche does not make you a knowledgeable football pundit. Joey Barton is a lot of things, but he's nowhere near as smart as his mum must be telling him. ☺️

02 Mar 2015 18:07:51
For the firs time in 7 years Liverpool FC have made a profit, Big well done to FSG Ian Ayre and the whole team on that

02 Mar 2015 18:39:03
£17k a week is a start I guess but net debt being up £12m we can't hide under a rock to suit us either.

02 Mar 2015 19:02:04
A profit is much better than a loss certainly, but the profit largely came from the improved TV deal rather than anything LFC really did and without it we would have been sitting near -£40M again.

Media (2013): £63.7M
Media (2014): £100.8M

Matchday (2013): £44.6M
Matchday (2014): £50.9M

Commercial (2013): £97.7M
Commerical (2014): £103.8M

The increased turnover from our Matchday and Commercial activities just about paid for the increase in wage bill (which was £11.1M from 2013 to 2014).

Glossed over a bit in the coverage is that our institutional debt increased by ~£9M yet the intracompany loan to UKSV remained static at £68.9M. This shows the owners used the bank instead of their money, which is a concern although not entirely unexpected. It wouldn't surprise me at all if next fiscal year we see a good chunk of money used to erase some or all of the UKSV debt before they have to convert that into equity in the club.

Overall a positive result compared to previous but we did get bailed out a bit by the increased revenue from the TV rights.

02 Mar 2015 19:42:08
Good news, especially for ffp although it still doesn't mean we can splash the clash on new players. We maybe declaring profits but cash is king and player acquisitions sit on the balance sheet and are unwound over the players contract. Therefore it doesn't affect the p&l all at once but its cash that's an issue for us, evident by the increase in debt. Also the capex involved in the development of that stadium will mean that it isn't going to change soon. I like fsg as they are taking us in the right direction. But we as fans need to be patient and not expect £30m + signings ! Not going to happen until we improve our cash flow. Another few years of signing potential and then we will really be able to compete in the transfer market. Juat look at arsenal and how much they spend on players now !

02 Mar 2015 20:18:05
Good news but we are not out of the woods at all hence, we have to be smarter and I applaud the fact that we will be selling before we buy, not that we need drastic changes anyway because we have the core of the squad already there. Just need 2/3 top players to help the first 11.

02 Mar 2015 12:26:10
Hi Eds

how do a football club put a value on a player? is it based on anything in particular? i just always wondered where some of these figures in the past for some players have come from?

{Ed002's Note - Clubs will decide what they are willing to spend on any particular player based on their perceived value to the club. Clubs will look to get as much as they can for a player but must be willing to negotiate if they price the player too high. Some clubs (e.g. Lyon) put a different value on a player if selling to clubs from a particular country (e.g. England). UEFA has a committee that decides the values of players when exchanges take place.}

02 Mar 2015 15:55:03
ibe out for up to a month apparently

02 Mar 2015 13:23:02
What I found impressive yesterday about Allen was that he brought a level of composure to his play that I haven't seen before. He's always been full of running and energy but yesterday he seemed to be more controlled and measured in his passing, which initiated a lot of our attacks through the middle. I'd always considered him to be a bit of a headless chicken but I'm glad he proved me wrong. I don't know if his performance was down to the space City left us in midfield or whether he is improving, Time will tell I suppose.

02 Mar 2015 13:27:24
His game yesterday was very similar to West Ham at home last season where he absolutely bossed Diame. It's a shame his injuries tend to keep him from maintaining that level

02 Mar 2015 15:37:54
I don't think it has anything to do with injuries tbh. It is more to do with managing him better. He has too often been played as a more attacking midfielder where he has to close down the opposition and get into attacking areas. He is at his best when he plays a more disciplined Alonso type role. Always making himself available for the ball and being comfortable in possession. I just hope when Lucas or Gerrard return it doesn't mean Allen will be pushed further up the pitch in a more advanced role.

Red Rum

02 Mar 2015 18:10:42
I was very impressed with Allen. He seemed composed on the ball, moving everything on with 2 touches. He's no defensive monster, but when you need to control possession in the middle of the park, he's probably our best player at doing just that. I just hope that the vast majority of fans will see his performance against City and stop moaning everytime he gets on the pitch. When fit and given a few games to prove himself, he's actually quite good and can be excellent.

02 Mar 2015 20:27:30
Never really had a prob with him because he has had several great perfs from him since he`s been here. I just felt that BR was using him in a system that doesn`t suit him nor the team hence, made him look bad. As for the game, what impressed me the most was that regardless of the amount of people around him, he wriggled out of them w/ confidence and ease. He also had the uncanny ability to pass with either feet with complete ease and non chalance. He is no coutinho BUT IMO, I don`t know if any of our midfielders are that comfortable on the ball in central midfield w/ bodies around him bar maybe Can. He`s been great the past few games and to me, he is a good player who we need in certain games and I would not mind keeping him.

02 Mar 2015 22:19:53
redohio

that's a good point. i remember back in the day we had a player called Ray Houghton who did exactly that, broke up play and started our attacks. he was a similar size to allen, wasn't anything special to watch, but just did his job quietly and effectively. one thing i remember about him was that he rarely lost the ball. he played alongside beardsley, barnes, molby, rush and didn't look at all out of place.

03 Mar 2015 04:34:29
The last game I saw Houghton play was vs Italy where he scored the winning goal at the 1994 World Cup in the U.S in one of the biggest upsets in WC history. Awesome!

02 Mar 2015 12:30:43
Edd001 how are you doing mate?
I just want to ask you something if you can spare a minute. I've heard we may be interested in kedeira. When he's fit he is a great central midfielder. do you think he could be a realistit opotion if he proves his fitness?

{Ed001's Note - because of his fitness issues, he is a very realistic option.}

02 Mar 2015 14:08:24
Ed01 so you're saying that many clubs will look elsewhere as a result of his injury problems thereby making us signing him far more realistic?

{Ed001's Note - yes.}

02 Mar 2015 17:19:50
Isn't it bonkers to buy a player with that injury record?

02 Mar 2015 12:06:36
Question for ed001 if he is about.

What in your opinion is the reason for such a drastic turn around in form?

Also do you think Rodgers is the best of what is available to us?


Thanks

Nevada

{Ed001's Note - the change in form is down to a change in way of playing. Instead of sitting back and passing it slowly, we went back to going for the throat, hassling the opponent's into mistakes and giving up possession.

Is he the best of what is available? I am not sure, as I don't know all the available options. He is certainly the safest option for a regular top 4 place. If we want to go further, than that, then we would have to take a risk on an unknown quantity.}

02 Mar 2015 12:52:02
Ed are you warming to the idea of keeping Rodgers now

{Ed001's Note - not as manager. He needs someone over him.}

02 Mar 2015 13:11:31
Absolutely!

02 Mar 2015 13:40:11
Someone above him?

Are you suggesting we demote him to AM and bring in a new Manager? I know that we may toy with the idea of a DOF but in my understanding a DOF does not control the team selection, tactics or training? Unless I'm wrong that is.

Myself? I'm not entirely sold on Rodgers, I don't think he is a bad manager, but I don't think he is good enough to win a trophy. His desire to win every game with attacking football is commendable but simply won't work in Prem. I think if he went to spain or france he would do very well.

Nevada

{Ed001's Note - head coach with a DoF over him. We don't need a DoF to control team selection, tactics or training, but we do need one to keep on Rodgers' case so he doesn't let it slip early on.}

02 Mar 2015 14:22:35
Thanks ed,

while we are chatting what do you make of markovic and Lovren? I seem to remember you were a fan of lovren previously.

{Ed001's Note - Markovic has potential, but I am not convinced by him going forward. He doesn't look anything other than a downgrade over Ibe, for instance. It is early days though, so hopefully he can show a bit more over the next few seasons.

Lovren needs to settle down and stop trying so hard. He also needs to be paired with pace, as he lacks that, to allow us to press properly. Needs more time, but he did show a real good attitude taking a penalty, when it would be far easier to hide.}

02 Mar 2015 14:57:09
I like some of what Markovic has to offer, he has good pace and ball control is pretty good (what you would expect from a winger really) but his final ball/shot is poor and needs to work on his composure.

Watching Lovren for Southampton made him look like a great defender but I have not been impressed with him at all. I can forgive a lack of pace (like Hyypia or Carra) if they read the game well (like Hyypia and Carra). Pace is only really necessary for a player with poor ability to read the game, and lovren seems to be quite poor at that. He also loses a lot of headers for such a big guy.

Nevada

02 Mar 2015 20:16:43
I was really keen to have Lovren I, I thought he was exactly what we needed.
But for whatever reason he has struggled to settle.
I've come to the conclusion that Schniderlin made him look good at Southampton.
Now with Lucas back in the side, we should give Lovren a chance with him and see if we can improve his performances.

02 Mar 2015 20:29:08
I thought the reason we bought him was because we wanted to play the high line hence, his pace was needed. Ed`s?

{Ed001's Note - no, he was meant to be a leader at the back, which we needed. He has never had much pace, though he is not slow, just not quick.}

02 Mar 2015 22:40:47
There is a diff b/w quickness and pace. I am still quick BUT still not pacey enuff when playing in the Boozer`s Premier League (LOL).

02 Mar 2015 11:27:04
The European exit will be good advantage for us now. We can focus on the PL and getting sturridge back and firing. I can't see us finishing outside the top 4. If we get sturridge back in top form soon we should be challenging city for second. We have a great chance in the fa cup too should we continue to play like yesterday. let's just get behind the team because Rodgers will be reviewed come the end of the season by those who won't be fooled by his comments. Shocking first six months but hopefully a strong end to the season and a doF to come in the summer

02 Mar 2015 10:44:13
Good to hear we didn't incurr any fines due to FFP. My question is how much, if any, transfer funds will be given to BR in the summer?

It is inevitable that we will have to sell to buy, but can a top 4 finish persuade FSG to loosen the purse strings again?

Many thanks

02 Mar 2015 11:50:27
we were not given fines because we are showing improvements. that does not mean we can start spending. we need to keep improving in order to not even be considered breaching it again i suppose.

02 Mar 2015 12:43:48
If we can get rid of fringe players not getting game time (borini) and also players out on loan (Alberto) surely we can get 40mil ish.

Enough to buy a class striker

02 Mar 2015 08:57:34
Cant help but feel that if BR sticks too the 343 or 442 diamond all next season even Chelsea and city will be frantically trying to keep pace with us. He's found 2 formations that work and that suit him, Enough with the 433 BR you don't get it like you think you do. If he promises to never use 433 again he should be allowed to keep his job in my opinion. Also no more squad buying, If you can't get a top class player in the position you need to improve it goes to one of the young lads I.E 1 maybe 2 huge signings and no more.

02 Mar 2015 09:09:09
i don't think 4 3 3 was the problem. it was the slow possession and no pressing that was the problem. the 3 4 3 only came up to fit in the types of players we have.

02 Mar 2015 10:05:50
I think playing a high pressing game from the beginning of the season will cripple us towards the end. It's a fine balance and I would much prefer us finish stronger, than start quickly and drop off towards the end of the season.

Make no bones about it, we were poor at the beginning of the season, for a multitide of reasons, but trying to sustain a pressing game all season will be practically impossible. It's about picking up those 3 points regardless how we're playing initially. It would be great to be flying all season, but it rarely every happens. I think back to Utd winning title after title, and they would always start off sluggishly, and then the intensity would increase as the season progressed. The key being during that sluggish period, still picking up the 3 pts. We didn't do that this season and that's what effectively killed off the title challenge before Christmas.

We definitely need to be better pre-Christmas, that's for sure, and I think in time, we'll get that right balance.

{Ed001's Note - why would it cripple us? Can't players be rested or rotated to avoid it? That was the reasoning given for buying so many players in the summer, so any nonsense about burn out is simply an excuse. Players have ample time to rest, if they are looking tired then the club should scale back the training to allow them to recover or rest them from a game or two.}

02 Mar 2015 10:35:08
Ed01,

I guess it would depend on the level of pressing. I cannot see any team maintaining the level of pressing we're now showing over a 50 game season.

It's not just about burn out, it's tactically getting it right from the get-go, especially having such an influx of new payers. So even if the press is adopted from Game 1, there's no garuntee it'll be as effective as it will be in say Game 20, as it'll take time for the squad to learn it and put it to work on match days. A high press is great when it works, but it can also expose you badly if a few players don't know what they're doing.

Like I said, a change needs to be made to our performances pre-Christmas, there's no doubting that.

{Ed001's Note - why can't a team maintain the pressing? There is absolutely no reason when there is plenty of chances for them to rest. If they can't manage it then the training is wrong. There is no real reason for the level to drop. That is what a manager is for, to manage the squad to keep the intensity up.}

02 Mar 2015 11:02:14
I don't think I've ever seen a team maintain such a high level of press for the entire season, certainly not in the Premier League?

I think we can press, no argument there. We can still set up to press from Game 1, I'm just not sure to what level of pressing can be applied to ensure we're still hitting that intesity over 50 games. Maybe one for the Sports Science Bods.

We killed ourselves this season with the personal on the pitch for a pressing game, but I guess that opens up a whole range of other debates.

02 Mar 2015 11:04:57
You can't press all the time.
You have to press when it's clever to do it.
That is most of the time but not all of the time and it does have an effect not only in the game you are playing but also over the course of a season.
But I think we are a 100% better team by pressing so I tend to agree that we have a big squad and that should be used more.
But we had a piss poor start to the season and loads of new players who have taken time to learn the pressing that we do.
I would say most of the squad are now on board with the pressing and so it won't be an issue at the start of next season as it has been this year because we won't have a completely new team.
I agree with most though and Ed when they say that pressing is a massive part of our game and that was missing earlier in the season and we suffered as a result.

{Ed001's Note - but, and this is a big but, we started the season with new players that were almost entirely brought in from teams that played the pressing system. Southampton applied an even higher press under Poch, we bought a number of their players who could have easily integrated into a pressing system. There is no reason we could not have applied it from day one, other than that the manager made a decision not to go with it until it was too late. If we fade late on, then manage the damn team to see us through it, but we simply can't afford to give up 3 months of the season!}

02 Mar 2015 11:56:48
I take your point ed.
But Football is about partnerships and team work and that does not happen straight away with a new set of players.
Rodgers (and you may think this is a poor excuse) has stated that the longer he works with the players on the training field the better they would get and to be fair that has happened.
Lallana is brilliant at pressing but he has had a season of disruption, Lovren had a spell of bad form and Lambert in my opinion can't press at the speed we need him to.
Balotelli can't press at all, he is learning slowly though.
So maybe it was a combination of factors as to why we did not press right from the start of the season.
I would go along with the notion that it took too long for Rodgers to fix but better late than never and I don't think it should cost him his job.

{Ed001's Note - I don't disagree, nor feel it is an excuse that the longer he works with a player the better they get, that is how it should be. We were only missing one player from last season's side at the beginning, so again I ask why change the system, rather than just slowly bleeding the newbies in over the course of the season as they get used to it? Any team successful over a period of time only evolves gradually, Rodgers tried to tear it down and start again in the summer. That is a massive mistake and he has to learn from it. Start off with the same system and slowly alter it slightly to fit in the new players as the season goes on. Paisley would never have ripped up his system in the summer, but he did play different formations and make tactical alterations on a game by game basis.

We were nearly there last season, it only needed a tweak, instead we got a complete rebuild. That has set us back another season. How many more times can we do that?}

02 Mar 2015 11:56:50
I'm with ed. There's no reason why a high pressing system cannot be played in every game as long as your squad is big enough. Southampton had a much smaller squad last year than we do this year and played that system all year.

If our first eleven is lacking then the player can be rotated to give them a break. Lowering the intensity of pressing for even a few minutes just gives teams the space they want.

Nevada

02 Mar 2015 12:39:45
Nevada,

Southampton finished 8th and had form of L L W W L W L L D W W D from their last 12 games. So 5 losses from 12 games, a 40% loss ratio.

You can adopt any approach you want all season long, it doesn't mean it's going to work though.

{Ed001's Note - to be fair, Southampton were expected to struggle, so a 40% win ratio is probably about as good as they could expect to get. Those stats are meaningless, as are all stats.}

02 Mar 2015 13:23:37
Play what works and don`t break what is not broken and then fix it when your job is on the line. He bought players that play the high press YET played them in a cripling system of pass-pass. That is just stupidity. Do what wrks and screw the rest. Barca play the high press every game they play. Has that hurt them globally over the years? If he thinks we can`t sustain that over a season, then manage the squad better which is his job. Making an excuse as to why he reverted to the slow press by saying we woud not have been able to sustain it over a season is ludicrous. We have only played well for 1 and a half seasons of the 3 seasons he`s been here and that was when he employed the high press. We will not win the PL doing thigs right half the time. That is a fact! Do what works all the time until the other teams figure you out and if they can`t, then keep doing it. Footie is an easy game. Only managers and their worthless "philosophies" make it complicated.

02 Mar 2015 14:14:23
Ed01 - stats may be meaningless but if a poster is putting a team in the spotlight as an example for us to follow, then it's fair to highlight just how effective they were, and in Southamptons case, they finished 8th.

Redohio - how do you know he bought players for the high press? Just another assumption, or if we're being honest, a regurgitated ED01 statement. Lallana, Lovren & Lambert played for a pressing team, I don't think I ever heard Rodgers mention he bought them for the press. In fact, it was more for their technique and versatility, and in Lovrens case, leadership and organisation. The others having not seen enough of them prior to playing for us (Ballotelli aside), I cannot comment on, but to suggest they were bought for a high press is an assumption, not fact.

I think using Barca as an example for any footballing discussion will badly misrepresent whoever the other team is. They were undoubtedly one of the greatest teams in the last 20-30 years. The quality they had runs a lot deeper than what pressing system they deployed.

As I said, early on this season we were poor. But it wasn't just a lack of pressing, it was a mess from top to bottom all over the pitch. And you're right, we won't win the Premier League doings things half right, but I will also say it's going to be very damn tough winning the Premier League doing everything right as well.

{Ed001's Note - Southampton finishing 8th is well ahead of where they were expected to finish, so I fail to see your point there?}

02 Mar 2015 15:18:01
Ed01 - my point was this:

Me - "I think a high pressing game will cripple us towards the end of the season."

Nevada - "Southampton deployed a high pressing system all season."

Me - "They lost 5 out of the last 12 games and finished 8th."

So, my point is, deploying that high pressing system all season doesn't gauruntee success, and using Southampton as the example, did in fact show a decrease in performance towards the end of the season.

{Ed001's Note - but it brought them an increase in performance throughout the season as a whole. So which way do you want it?}

02 Mar 2015 15:59:37
Ed01 -

LOL, we're going to end up going around in circles again, and end up disagreeing for the 1000th time.

As I said in my 1st post on the topic, it's about finding a balance. I don't think there is any team in the Premier League that can play the intensive high press we're now playing for the entire duration of the season and in our case, atleast, win the title from it. So far, I don't think it's ever happened in the Premier League. Utd being the best example since the Premier League started - they were notably slow starters, and then gathered momentum in the 2nd half of the season - very similiar to us, except during that slow period, they still managed to pick up the 3pts, hence the reason why last season we came within 2 points of winning the title, because we were still in contention at Christmas.

What I agree wholeheartedly with is you adopt the best approach for the team from Day 1, and we didn't do that this season and suffered badly because of that. So yes, a pressing game from the beginning would have yielded more points to this point, but there's no evidence to suggest, yet atleast, that we could then perform as well in the 2nd half of the season.

{Ed001's Note - I wasn't arguing with you on this, I was just pointing out that merely taking the stats on their own means nothing. It is like those form tables the TV are so fond of, they are utterly meaningless as they fail to take any outside forces into consideration at all. Stats are just drivel to fill airtime in the main, unless you spend time analysing them and bring all kinds of other issues into the equation.}

02 Mar 2015 18:23:14
JM, you lose there, mate. Can, Moreno, Marko, Lallana are players who are currently thriving in the high press because they have the energy, technique, fitness and pace to play that way and City could NEVER match that. That is not an assumption nor as U say, a regurgitated ED01 comment. It is what we are seeing with our very own eyes. Don`t need to be a genius to figure that out. Balo is the only one that was the head-scratcher on that level. I suggest you do your own analysis and use r own eyes instead of making lame comments. N BTW, I don`t need any of the Ed`s to form an opinion on footie because I played the game at a very decent level (in France) as well as followed the gamme for 3 decades. Nuff said!

02 Mar 2015 18:42:42
I can't disagree with any of that ed001. nice one for the reply.

{Ed001's Note - no worries.}

03 Mar 2015 10:31:05
Redohio :-

There's a difference between buying players for the high press and players thriving playing a high press.

Anyway, I think this particular thread has run it's course so I'm not going to extend it any further. What I will do is offer my apologies as some of my comments to you lately have been rude. It would be good to wipe the slate clean. Take it easy.

02 Mar 2015 06:54:51
Hi,
Can anybody fill me in on when liverpool train at Melwood. I am bringing my son over for the first time this week and would like him to see them leaving training on Wednesday. Will they train on Wednesday morning before the match that night?
Thanks in advance if somebody could help me.

02 Mar 2015 10:24:59
You can call Mellwood and they can confirm a rough time that training may finish. It's mainly a case of being there early and hanging around. I grew up in Walton and a few years ago brought my son over from aus and he was (still is) obsessed with anything lfc. He had me at Mellwood on and off for days getting autographs. Some players wouldn't stop but the best were agger and Kelly, making sure everyone got some face time.

02 Mar 2015 01:34:41
If we keep playing like this, get 3rd, Rodgers stays, he actually manages to get the team playing well start to finish, we have a good Europe run.

You never know guys we can dream ;)

02 Mar 2015 05:19:24
If we get 3rd and win the FA Cup, then yes he may have earned another season to challenge for the league title. But anything less than that should make him leave as he has had enough money to sort the team out. Its the final results that matter, not the tit bits from here and there.

02 Mar 2015 07:30:34
He gets another year to win the league? That is laughable. you people live in wonderland.

02 Mar 2015 11:18:00
Why is it wonderland?
That is why I support a football team. to hope.
There is a brilliant flag at Anfield "Dare to Dream" it says.
We just beat the champions.
I had a sneaky look at the table this morning and thought. "can we?"
And then I thought no probably not but let's be honest people's frustration with our poor start to the season is based on the fact that we are a very very good side.
There is so much potential in our squad, in our manager and off the pitch for the first time in a long time.
There is more going right at Liverpool than going wrong. Way more things going right than going wrong.

02 Mar 2015 12:53:37
Can anyone remember last season, Man city's away form at the start of the season?! They was dropping points, losing and yet still won the league. Can we dare to dream ;)



(Btw, I am having a bit of banter)

02 Mar 2015 13:30:43
If LFC had even 10-12 more points from the first half of the season, we would be challenging for the PL as we speak. Why? The league is really poor right now and had we done the right things then, we would be in a battle for it now so your point of it being wonderland is odd and smacks of a love for mediocrity, IMO.

02 Mar 2015 21:37:12
I agree redohio, that this is the poorest premier league I have seen since the 1990's.
I think the overall standard from top to bottom is good as any team can get a result against anyone on their day but the top bit of the league has not improved with the exception of Chelsea.
And that is why they will walk it in my opinion.
As for us we have taken a step or two back but that is with a view to taking more steps forward in the near future.
Arsenal have surprised me in that they have still not improved even with Sanchez, they desperately need a DM.
United have improved results wise but playing awful football at the same time.
Spurs have not really improved that much and need to get rid of Adebayor, Soldado and other high wage flop but have some good prospects.
Sothampton and West Ham have been great but look to have run out of steam.
I am not expecting the winner of the Champions league to come from England.

03 Mar 2015 04:41:25
Agree with you there, Barnes! In addition, even City looked old and slow and that struck me more than anything during the game. The others have not improved and Utd will not improve under LVG because he is too old and set in his ways. As a result, We need to make a move for the PL now because in the next few years, it might become difficult again.

01 Mar 2015 23:33:24
Credit where it's due, Allen played really well today, best game I've seen of him. Quick to slate, quick to praise. Keep it up please

02 Mar 2015 06:35:54
he always plays his heart out against mancity, however for some reason its only against mancity.