Liverpool Banter Archive February 21 2018

21 Feb 2018 20:39:29
Hi Ed002 - after my post the other day asking about what was happening re the racist accusations from Holgate against Firmino - the FA have concluded there is no case to answer. Bobby co-operated fully and has been exonerated. Good outcome me thinks.

{Ed002's Note - Absolutely, hopefully that is the end of the matter.}

21 Feb 2018 22:17:41

{Ed025's Note - we are not persisting with this tread K68 as it will just cause abuse so its case closed mate..

21 Feb 2018 21:39:10
Glad its done and dusted. How are you Ed2?

{Ed002's Note - technically homeless.}

21 Feb 2018 22:32:24
Fine Ed just expressing the opinion I had at the onset, respect your stance and understand the reasoning.

22 Feb 2018 00:20:14
I have a spare room ed.

{Ed033's Note - You would need copious amounts of Beluga white caviar in the spare room to tempt Ed002 😋

22 Feb 2018 00:13:06
Personally I’m glad the FA took their time. I’m also glad that there’s no recrimination or action against Holgate. He clearly misheard. It’s important that players feel they can report allegations and it’s important that those accused have a fair and thorough investigative process. The system works.

22 Feb 2018 00:51:12
‘Technically homeless’ ie. staying at the Ritz again Ed?

{Ed033's Note - The Ritz yes, Illuminati meeting i think

21 Feb 2018 16:38:22
Its that time of the season where we all go a little quiet, myself included. The transfer window is firmly shut, the clubs and players are focused on the seasons run in. The time has come for boys to be men, for every point to be fought for like a cup prize, every misplaced pass will be punished and panic will ensue. What will we achieve? What can the players produce in these most important of times?

Stand now and be counted, wear the shirt and the badge with pride and honour. The shirt may weigh heavy to some and to those we ask the leaders to bear the weight and carry through those that are in need.

We have so much to gain and so much to lose all in the kick of a ball, an army of red expects, a wall of kopites awaits glory for we are Liverpool Football Club and we will fight until the final whistle.

YNWA.

21 Feb 2018 14:47:24
Just a bit or fun or sadness depending on how you look at it lol
what is your biggest disappointing final wise as a Liverpool fan
have to say for me it is the fa cup final against Man U When james handed it to cantona.
I cried that evening and have never ever gotten over that one.

21 Feb 2018 15:22:47
Champions league against ac Milan- the other one. I just felt we would never do it and unfortunately we didn't. I remember seeing the fans on tv, hopping the turnstiles and thinking worrying thoughts about crowd control and it stayed with me the whole match. Thank god there were no problems in the end but it shook me. If memory serves h and g had just taken over as well and it felt like we were about to return to our legendary status. That is the real pain of it. Great question though.

21 Feb 2018 15:51:33
Wimbledon 88 I was sick for week's after.

21 Feb 2018 16:00:26
Has to be the 2008-09 and 2013-14, i. e., missing out on the PL title.

21 Feb 2018 16:19:43
For me, Johncrow, there are a few disappointments.

The biggest one was the 1988 FA Cup Final. To think that we were 2 goals away from being the first team to do the double in 3/ 4 seasons (still can't stand Michael Thomas either! ) is just maddening!

The first final I watched was Hysel, and that was sad in a whole different way : (

Finally, the biggest swings of emotion in a cup final, well that's jointly held by FA Cup 86, FA Cup 06 and Instanbul! The latter two will be well covered by others, but in 86, I was 10, and SOOO cross with Brucie for letting in Linekar's shot that I started stabbing his Panini sticker with a pin! Alls well that ends well, though!

21 Feb 2018 16:28:29
1987, Littlewoods Cup final, my second trip to Wembley, my first Wembley outing being 86 when we beat Everton 3-1 in the FA Cup.

We played Arsenal and lost 2-1, Rushey scored the opener and when ever Rush scored first we went onto win, not this time and the duck was broken. Charlie Nicholas scored twice for the Gunners.

1989 was also a tough one to swallow, losing to Arsenal once again, seconds to go Barnes received the ball out on the left and loses possession to Kevin Richardson, the rest is history :- ( - To be fair, the kop stayed intact and gave Arsenal the applause.

21 Feb 2018 16:58:48
It has to be when we lost the title to Arsenal in the dying seconds, Michael Thomas goal that has to be the biggest gutter.

21 Feb 2018 17:01:19
Has to be 1977 sic as a pig when it's beat us and cost us the treble league fa cup and European cup.

21 Feb 2018 18:43:34
Have to admit the most angry I have ever been was the 1997 semi final against PSG when James once again destroyed any chance we had in that second leg
I still to this day cannot look at a picture of James without wanting to shout at him.

21 Feb 2018 18:47:50
Champions League 2007! We had the team to win it but just didn't produce on the night.

The FA Cup against Utd comes a close second, only because it was the Mancs.

21 Feb 2018 19:00:29
Not a cup final but Michael Thomas goal 89 still hurts.

21 Feb 2018 20:08:12
A tie btw the CL final of 2007 and the EL final of 2016. Rafa IMO, got his tactics wrong and should have gone after Milan esp. in the 2nd half. We were too cautious and it played right into their hands and by the time we went two up top and scored, it was too late. Crouch comes on earlier and to me, it's a diff game cos that Milan team were dead on their legs.

The EL final was a mix, IMO. In the first half, we were the better team and we were robbed with two penalties not given esp. at 1-0. This is where luck counts and Seville got a reprieve and in the second half, we collapsed mainly due to conceding so early. Our team was not mentally tough enuff and at least not as tough as it is now and not as good as it is now. Well, we live and learn and hopefully, the next final will be THE ONE.

21 Feb 2018 22:23:48
‘77 FA Cup . gutted.

22 Feb 2018 00:10:48
I'm fortunate that since I've started supporting liverpool we've won most finals we've been in! first one I remember watching live in the wee hours of the morning was the michael owen final vs arsenal. got myself a detention the next at high school cos I walked in with my liverpool top on ( a really budget one! ) fell to my knees and yelled "Liverpool" directed at my best mate who is a gunners fan!

to the question, the most disappointing final defeat for me was the 2nd CL final vs AC Milan. actually thought we played better there than we did the year we won it! and how cool it would have been i nmy lifetime to have seen us win 'ol big ears a couple times in 3 years!

22 Feb 2018 07:30:34
The Michael Thomas goal for sure, I still ask why Houghton didn't take him down anytime I see a replay. Back then, no professional fouls were straight reds - this wasn't enforced until early 90's if memory serves, so only would have been a free-kick aaaaggghhh!

22 Feb 2018 09:14:20
The league cup final against City in Klopps first year, just because it was the first final (or knockout game of any sort) that I managed to get tickets for and was right behind the goal they were taking penalties into.

21 Feb 2018 09:56:32
Hi Ed1 and the older posters. I want to expand on the thread below about the dying art of defending. I started following football in the latter half of the 90s so I can't comment from first hand about the game before the PL era but I've always had a theory I'd like to hear your opinion on.

Simply put, is defending not much harder today because the game is being played at a much higher standard today? The players are much fitter, faster and stronger and I believe the average PL player is light years ahead technically than the average first division player from the 80s.

Do the older posters agree that standards have increased and is this an explanation as to why defenders look so much worse than they did 20/ 30 years ago?

21 Feb 2018 10:37:45
Game is quicker and players are much more protected than they used to be which makes defending harder. Players are scared to make a tackle in the attacking third. Also defenders are being set up to attack more in modern day football, back in the day you were a defender, stay solid and get rid.

21 Feb 2018 11:04:13
I disagree. The best forwards I've seen in the Premier league are Shearer, Henry, Drogba, Aguero and Torres. The best wide players I've seen are Ronaldo, Salah, Pires, Giggs and Robben. The best attacking midfielders I've seen are Gerrard, Lampard, Bergkamp, Silva and De Bruyne.

Of those 15 players, only 4 of them are playing in the league currently.

The reason why defences are no longer solid is because defending has become misunderstood. The game seems to highlight and reward the defenders who make lots of 50/ 50 challenges, last ditch recoveries and crunching tackles. It doesn't seem to reward players who funnel attackers out of play, make composed interceptions or gracefully nick the ball off the toes of an attacker. Defending now has to look spectacular to catch the eye.

Another key problem is tactics. Football used to be a game with 4 defenders, 2 midfielder and 4 attackers arranged in whatever way that particular wan chose. Be it a trio with a playmaker behind. 2 wingers and 2 strikers, or a main striker with a trio behind him. The game has changed though. Teams are now playing with 3 defenders and turning their full backs into wingers. Or in some cases playing with just 2 defenders, with full backs playing like wingers, and a midfielder with a good passing range dropping in between the centre backs. Full backs have become wing backs, centre backs have become midfielders, and everyone wants to play it out from the back. Even goal keepers are now playing as sweepers!

The biggest issue for me though, is a lack of leaders. Sometimes, you can forgive a player lacking in talent if he gets the best out of those around him. Keown, Carragher, Adams, Terry, Campbell, King etc. I can almost guarantee you now that those players would be playing in the Championship or for a lower Premier League side if they were coming through the system in the modern game. What they lacked in ability, they made up for in leadership, vocally and organisationally.

There are players like Lascelles (Newcastle), Mee (Burnley), Gibson (Middlesbrough), Morrison (Cardiff), Batth (Wolves) etc who are all fantastic leaders at the back, but probably won't ever get a chance to prove they can cope at a higher level because they are fairly average individually. Some of them probably wouldn't cope with a step up to be fair as not every player can step up to the next level successfully (football is not an exact science) but when was the last time a top Premier League team successfully gave the actual leader of a defence from a lesser side a chance, even though they weren't that highly rated?

I'll tell you when. Chelsea signed Gary Cahill from Bolton and won European cups and league titles with him in the side. So even though he's a pretty average individual, it's fair to say he has helped Chelsea to big things. Just before Gary Cahill there was also Phil Jones who whatever way you want to judge him, has won league titles, domestic cups and a European cup at United. Another average individual who displays good leadership qualities and has contributed hugely to United having the best defensive record in the league this season, and the second best in the Champions League.

Defending has died as an art, because modern football values the wrong attributes and modern tactics are turning defenders into midfielders. The quality of attackers has always been brilliant and the pitch and fitness argument is total rubbish. They all had to play on the same pitches with the same medical knowledge. Forwards may have got fitter and quicker, but so have defenders. Bobbles off bad pitches which favoured attackers, sometimes favoured defenders too. That is a soft excuse to be quite honest. The art of defending is just dying at the top level, quite frankly. At least it makes it more entertaining though!

21 Feb 2018 11:13:12
Forgot to add that diving, over complicated offside rules, and stricter refereeing has made defending slightly harder. Top players should be able to adapt to the times though. Defenders are also more protected now anyway. If a striker puts his arms on you to win a header it'll be a free kick to the defender, but that rarely goes both ways.

21 Feb 2018 11:14:43
my reply to both of you is show me a defender since the mid nighties or right through to now who could lace Maldini's or Franco's baresi's boots.
The art of defending is dead now and has been for a while.
go and watch a the ac milan team from the 80's or under capello and you will truly see what defending is all about
Im probably older then some on here but it makes me laugh when I read about the game and how it has improved etc
Nowadays there is a true lack of world class defenders about
I wonder how much the players I have mentioned would be worth in today's rates.
Ask yourself lads how much A Paul Mcgrath would have been worth or Des Walker.

21 Feb 2018 11:21:59
My response was sent before Mk Scouser posted so is not in reply to his post.

21 Feb 2018 11:34:46
Agreed Johncrow. I think defending hit a peak at around 2005 when there were players like Lahm, Thuram, Maldini, Nesta, Zambrotta, Cannavaro, Chiellini, Cafu, Terry, Carragher, Pepe, Carvalho, Ferdinand, Lucio, Samuel, Stam, Campbell, Toure, Ferreira, Cole, Neville, Puyol etc.

That generation had arguably the greatest pool of defenders to have lived, but i may be biased as i never saw any previous generations play live!

You look at the quality there was just 10-15 years ago though, compared to what there is now and the difference is horrific. In fact the only defenders in the modern game who would deserve to be on that list are Azpilicueta, Godin, and maybe Alderweireld in my opinion.

21 Feb 2018 11:50:15
Perhaps we only remember the greats and forget all deeply average defenders that played in the past.

I wonder if in ten years we'll talk about Kompany and Alderweireld and how the defenders of that time can't hold a candle to them.

Not trying to make a statement, just trying to promote discussion.

21 Feb 2018 11:51:05
Have to agree with you there MK it was a a great group of defenders which you have listed
I personally really rate Chellini but he is going a little down hill now but in his pomp there were few better for me in the last 6 - 7 years.

21 Feb 2018 12:18:08
MK - how on earth are you qualified to talk about the greatest era of defenders that ever lived when if memory serves right you're about 23 years old?

not knocking your age to be clear, but you've hardly been around long enough to make such a statement?

21 Feb 2018 12:28:45
This post has depressed me so much. John crow and mk. Completely agree with you and it's not from nostalgia either. It was a golden time for football, not just in premier league. I might add that it's the rest of the players which have dropped in quality and not just defenders. I hope someday I see a player with the same magic as zidane. I've seen messi and ronaldo at their best and they've done nothing to match that guy's incredible ability. Not to mention the real ronaldo. Small thing but international football was far more entertaining back then as well. I'm blaming FIFA 98 😉.

21 Feb 2018 12:35:08
As someone who grew up watching the legendary AC Milan team of the 90's, the art of defending is completely dead. Why? A defender is no longer rated for how well he can defend before actually defending as in, read the danger, anticipate a striker's runs, showing an ability to spot a pass and then defend when actually needed. They also had enough intelligence to adjust in-game to adapt to what the opponent is doing.

Now, a defender over-coached, is rated on how well he fits into systems, how much pace he may have and how well he can pass the ball out of the back, all of which have nothing to do with actually being able to defend. Paolo Maldini once said that he considered making a tackle as failure to do his job. What does that say? That is how they were coached in that era. Players like Nesta, Canavarro, Laurent Blanc etc., did not need pace nor even need to to run. They knew what you would do before you did it. That game intelligence is what is lacking, IMO. Also, It says that at that time, players of today who look good for running around making tackles would not even make it at academy level then cos well, they would be failing all the time.

It also means that if you are almost always in the right position, you won't even need to tackle. Defenders today are poor all round as they are badly coached and even those with game intelligence are coached NOT to use that intelligence and just do what is droned into them by their fake "Know it all" managers.

21 Feb 2018 12:28:58
I think you are all mistaken. If the art of defending was dead there would be a big increase in goals per game but there has been only an increase of around 4% since the start of the premier league.

Here are the goals per game and 5 year averages. You can see the goals dropped during the mid noughties and have increased again since.


Year Goals/ 5 yr
Game average
93-93 2.65
93-94 2.59
94-95 2.59
95-96 2.60
96-97 2.55 2.596
97-98 2.68 2.602
98-99 2.52 2.588
99-00 2.79 2.628
00-01 2.61 2.630
01-02 2.63 2.646
02-03 2.63 2.636
03-04 2.66 2.664
04-05 2.56 2.618
05-06 2.48 2.592
06-07 2.45 2.556
07-08 2.64 2.558
08-09 2.48 2.522
09-10 2.77 2.564
10-11 2.80 2.628
11-12 2.81 2.700
12-13 2.80 2.732
13-14 2.77 2.790
14-15 2.57 2.750
15-16 2.70 2.730
16-17 2.80 2.728
17-18 2.70 2.708.

{Ed001's Note - there are a hundred reasons that could be which are nothing to do with defending, such as a lesser quality of attacker or more defensively set out teams, such as Pulis, Allardyce, Mourinho etc. Just putting a bunch of stats down like that without context is just annoying and pointless. There is no conclusion to be drawn from these numbers by anyone who bothers to think about it.}

21 Feb 2018 12:48:41
Wow Brover seems like a little rant there lol but I agree with ya mate.

21 Feb 2018 12:53:02
aoe for me as good as messi is and Ronadlo is do any of them have the natural talent of Zindane?
if Zidane had the pace of say a salah would we be sitting here talking about one of the very very best of all time?
Take away the pace of Ronadlo and how good would he still be or take away the fact that every team messi has ever played in has been compeltely 100 percent based around him and giving him the ball at every opportunity no matter if it is the right choice or not.
for me neither of those two had the natural footballing talent of Ronaldinho or Ronaldo (buck tooth edition) or anywhere near the overall ability of Zidane.

21 Feb 2018 12:57:04
A simple look at the Ballon D'or shortlist really tells you all you need to know. Yes an attacker is always more likely to take it but how many non-attacking players have been in the top 3 in the last 7 or 8 years?

People value defenders now based on whether they can run with the ball, pick a 30 yard pass, bomb up all day and cross from deep. A defender who simply let's nothing pass them just isn't valued in the game right now. But things come in swings and roundabouts, one day it'll be back to the day of the dominant defender whilst striking talent is expected to support itself.

21 Feb 2018 13:12:46
Ed01 that there is no conclusion to be drawn from those goal stats is precisely the point I was trying to make.

If the art of defending was dead, there would be a significant change in goals scored since it died, unless you want to argue that the art of attacking died at the same time as well.

Stats can rarely be used to prove something did happen but often and easily be used to show there is no evidence in favour of a belief or assertion.

{Ed001's Note - no you weren't, you were using the stats to prove your point that the art of defending isn't dead. And you are still wittering on about it as if the numbers are in anyway relevant. I have already pointed out a number of things that can skew the stats to make them useless, but you are still trying to argue they are relevant. Pointless conversation as you are showing the reading comprehension of a brick wall. I am done bothering to reply to you, you clearly are not willing to take any notice.}

21 Feb 2018 13:21:36
So many things to take into account with defenders of today and of times gone. Attacking players of now are faster yes, but look at the quality of dalglish, best, ronaldhino, kluivert and so many more that not the fastest but amazing on the ball, also the diffrence in pitches, quality of them, just look at old games or even pictures you can see the conditions that made playing attacking football we see on a regular basis now impossible, difference in footballs, football boots and life styles are amazing.
Wouldn't be surprised if we put the best attackers around now in the same conditions same equipment from the 80s they would struggle to be as effective as they are now.
The game has changed in so many ways, more effort is put into fast pace attacks, defenders are part of building it up now more than ever, th backs are more extra wingers than full backs, how many fullback are there now that can both defend and attack? The style of play we see now is seeing less defenders being coached to defend, instead to be part of the attack. If a team defends they are called for parking the bus.

Just my own opinion long winded at that, I have no expert knowledge just what I have seen watching the game over the last 30 plus years. The games evolving and defending doesn't seem to be important part of it. So less quality coming through.

21 Feb 2018 13:32:08
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say in my humble opinion, zidane is the greatest player of all time. I've seen Maradonna and he's a close second. I'm sure quite a number would disagree but the lad did things with the football that still to this day are unmatched. He was the complete player. Messi and ronaldo aren't a patch on him.

21 Feb 2018 13:41:43
Very well said ED1.

21 Feb 2018 13:53:25
87red, there is such a thing as past footage. I had the video tape of Italia 90 for example, and I've watched at least 50 games between 70's to the 90's on LFC TV, YouTube etc.

I fully understand that this isn't a huge pool of footage to analyse though, hence why i said "but i may be biased as i never saw any previous generations play live! "

It doesn't mean I'm not qualified to have an opinion. You all happily read Ed001's legend profiles on people like Puskas who were well before his time. So is Ed001 no longer qualified to continue his legends series? Of course not. There is plenty of research techniques that can help you to gain an understanding of the past, without having been there. I probably know more about WW2 than my great grandma who was alive as it happened. Why? Research. History is never forgotten and it is easy to find footage of anything if you can be bothered. Your comment smacks of arrogance, quite frankly. As if being older makes your opinion more important. Maybe the Eds should put a 30+ age cap on the site seeing as all us younglings aren't qualified to have an opinion on football.

I fully understand that because i have lived the noughties, i may be slightly biased towards that era. I was caught up in the emotions of football in that time. That doesn't mean i can't tell you that Koeman, Moore, Hansen, Beckenbauer and co were fantastic players. I could even tell you their styles of play and career statistics, such is my interest in the history of the game. I just think the noughties had a very rich pool of defensive quality and from what I've read and watched of the past, no other era can quite match it. That is my opinion and you can disagree, but you habe no right to tell me it is less important because of my age, which you got wrong anyway.

21 Feb 2018 14:15:43
MK im sure he was joking mate as no one would be that silly to believe a comment like that
age has no relevance on knowledge or even better the thirst for knowledge
there are various ways to find out or research any player in football present or past
I for one alongside a few others find your postS really interesting and thought provoking so long may you continue.

21 Feb 2018 14:15:55
In fairness to mk, he is right in his comments so surely that qualifies him to have an opinion. The age barrier is a weak retort at best and it should never come down to age to ridicule someone's opinion. Criticise what they're saying instead of hammering them for who they are. Mk mate, you don't need to defend yourself on this one and I think brover absolutely nailed the answer.

21 Feb 2018 14:22:22
Did I really see MK saying Ledley King didn’t have the ability, but his leadership skills helped him?! You must have been struggling for a name to make up your ‘list’. King was brilliant who was unfortunate with injuries.

Not knocking your knowledge or opinion but being a quality defender includes those leadership skills, it’s not a special skill it’s a requirement.

21 Feb 2018 14:34:48
Very ignorant comment that 87red. I would understand it if MK had of made no sense in what he wrote but he did make sense didn't he? he probably knows them days better then you and he probably wasn't even born. Research is indeed key, this man is no daft, I think he's proved that enough to get some respect instead of arrogant comments.

21 Feb 2018 15:35:45
Can’t believe you’ve left fowler out mk, I’d say he was by far the best natural finisher we’ve had since the premier league started maybe not the most gifted but I’d have him and Suarez ahead of Torres.

21 Feb 2018 16:00:50
I never saw Fowler (first spell) live, Pegleg. I only started following football in 2004, and Liverpool in 2005. He was deadly enough in his second coming! I've watched a compilation of all of his goals and my word. Better than Suarez? God yeah.

JordDodz, sorry if i didn't make it clear enough! But i really rated Ledley King. I thought he was phenomenal. He was the closest to Ferdinand out of any of the other English centre backs, but sadly injury robbed him of what i think would have been a stellar career.

21 Feb 2018 16:09:09
I just had a look at my list of defenders from the 2005 time period and I'm frankly disgusted that i missed off Hyypia and Zanetti. There was just too many to not miss a couple. Particularly ashamed i forgot Zanetti though. He was a genius.

21 Feb 2018 16:11:25
pretty sure Salah is MK's sister account.

{Ed033's Note - no it isn't

21 Feb 2018 17:41:37
I was going to mention Big Sami 😡.
Can’t agree with Zidane over Diego.
Ask yourself if Zidane could have played in Diego’s era and vice-versa. Maradonna was a one off, a total freak. He did everything wrong once terms of lifestyle yet was still miles ahead of his time. Lots of respect for Zidane but he was not in Diego’s league.

I think defenders are less capable these days due to laws changing encouraging attacking tactics and the culture of coaches. The wheeel will turn again 🤝.

21 Feb 2018 19:05:07
Total agree about Sami Ron. I know, I know, maradonna was my idol growing up. What he did at Napoli was just incredible and obviously what he did for Argentina was legendary. Don't get me wrong, I think maradonna is close but for me, zidane changed football. And like maradonna he won the World Cup almost single handedly for France. In fairness they were better than Argentina but only barely and the competition was far better to 86. Diego was a total freak but zidane was an absolute genius. We'll never see the likes of either again sadly.

21 Feb 2018 20:19:41
AOE, I understand that Zidane is your idol BUT him changing football? Sorry, I disagree. Zidane was a great player BUT at the time at France 98, he had a poor tournament bar the final which he may not have even played cos he stamped on Fuad Amin of Saudi Arabia and got a straight red. W/ O him vs Paraguay in the round of 16, it took a fortunate goal in the last minute of extra time from Laurent Blanc to get past Chilavert and his team mates and even the French players admitted that they would not have survived the penalty shoot out cos Chilavert was a wall the whole game. Zidane had a great final vs a Brazilian team that was well beaten before the took the pitch due to Ronaldo's convulsion pre game.

Zidane was a great player again BUT to me, he did not change the game the was say a Ronaldo Luiz Nazario (O Phenomeno), George Weah (Berlusconi still raves about him till this day) or Marco Van Basten changed the CF position. Maradona is still miles ahead of him and frankly the ONLY player to revolutionize football, WELL ahead of his time was you guessed it, El Rey Pele.

21 Feb 2018 21:02:07
If it was purely based around dribbling, then I would say Maradona was the better player. But Zidane made his team play better so if I had to pick a team to win the big matches then I would go for Zidane before Maradona.

21 Feb 2018 21:10:05
In regard the main thread of the art of defending, I reckon Brover nailed it when he said its due to overcoaching. Defenders whilst needing to work within a system (because defending is definitely a team effort) need to be free to adapt to changes on the field. If they are scared of adapting then they are screwed. So all good defences need at least one organiser who can read the game. But too many players look like this has been trained out of them or scared of making a decision. Youth coaches need to have a look at themselves.

22 Feb 2018 04:04:56
Here in Australia, there is very little emphasis placed on coaching how to defend at a junior level. Time needs to be devoted to all areas of defending. 1v1, central areas, wide areas, transition areas, high and deep areas. The key is getting the youth to understand why they are doing what they do. The earlier they understand, the easier it is for them to anticipate situations. Patience in coaching and patience on the field when defending are important early on I think. This may not be the same around the world, but it certainly exists here, and I believe is a big issue.

22 Feb 2018 07:47:01
87red,

Arguably one of the silliest digs or comment I have seen on here or any other forum in my near on 40 years.

You are just having a sly dig at the guy, get a life mate, or at least explain your comment instead of it just being left dead at "how on earth are you qualified to talk about the greatest era of defenders that ever lived when if memory serves right you're about 23 years old".

Idiotic!

23 Feb 2018 11:00:48
@preso I agree mate. i've coached in Oz for a long time now and have to agree that the art of defending is neglected. Either because coaches are unsure on how to teach it, or because they concentrate too much on winning (which oddly enough can hinder developing defensive skills) or because the FFA do not provide enough assistance on helping coaches develop the skills of teaching it. Most of my training plans on defensive skills, I had to develop myself.

21 Feb 2018 08:07:48
Wasn't impressed by Barca. This team isn't even close to the Barcelona of Pep. Possession football tika taka? Not joking I prefer the way we play, full on excitement. It would suit us down to the ground I think we'd of broke on them and scored 3 last night.

21 Feb 2018 08:29:43
If it was us playing them last night it wouldn't of been a draw, we'd of smashed them all over the pitch quite comfortably.

21 Feb 2018 08:36:04
They really have fallen haven't they. Iniesta, Messi, Rakitic and Suarez are some of their best players and they are all at the wrong end of their careers.

Pique and Busquets have a while left yet considering the way they play, Ter Stegen is okay, and Coutinho, Dembele and Sergi Roberto are obviously top players. So they still have a solid spine to be fair. I just think a lot of their players have become far too reliant on MSN in the last 3 years and now Suarez and Messi are the only two left, and not even close to the peak of their powers, the team seems to be dwindling a bit. They are very fortunate that Real Madrid are having similar problems on a bigger scale.

Spanish football is done with it's dominance, for me. They've had their decade of fun and they did make the most of it to be fair. I think English football is back though. Chelsea are the worst English side in the competition and they made the best Spanish side look insipid and average on the day, without even playing well. The likes of Real, Barca, Sevilla and Atletico will all still do very well in Europe because they're good sides, but i don't think their dominance will continue season on season, as it has done.

I can easily see 3 English sides in the semi finals this season, if the quarter final draw makes that possible.

I think Man United fans may be in for a shock tonight though. They all told us Sevilla are a bad team and we had an easy group, but that simply isn't true. On paper they aren't top opposition, but they seem to find an extra 10% in European competition. Man U should have enough to go through, but I'll be amazed if it's a stroll in the park, tonight in particular away from home!

{Ed001's Note - is Sergi Roberto a top player? He can't cross or pass, which are kind of important to being a top player imo.}

21 Feb 2018 08:45:24
I think he needs to be played in the right position Ed. He's no right back in my opinion, because he can't cross and he isn't good enough defensively.

In a box to box role, i think he's a very good player though. He seems to me like a better version of James Milner. Reliable, versatile, hard working, and with solid abilities if not spectacular. Perhaps he's just a level below top class, in hindsight. Still a great player to have though.

21 Feb 2018 09:16:35
Spanish football is done with their dominance? You do realise that Madrid are the current CL winners? I would hold off on your assumptions until the end of this season to see where we stand. I certainly wouldn't be writing them off. They are both in good positions to go into the quater finals. I can see one of them winning it still.

21 Feb 2018 09:23:44
MK Scouser, I agree that the Spanish dominance is over but I can see PSG taking at least one CL before the next team from England do it.

21 Feb 2018 09:51:02
Rover, the key term is "dominance". Spanish football teams have won 6 of the last 10 Champions Leagues, and 5 of the last 10 Europa leagues. 11/ 20 European trophies have gone to Spain.

I'm not saying they won't win any of the next 20, but i expect it'll be more like 4 or 5 out of 20, and not over 50%.

Italian teams have come back strong (Juventus, Inter, Napoli, Roma) and PSG and Monaco are now genuine super powers. Bayern have always been strong. Now we have 6 top sides in England too. I wouldn't be surprised if Arsenal won the Europa League and ne of the 5 English sides involved won the Champions League.

Spain still have 4 stand out great teams. They're just not the powerhouses' they have been for the last decade and that is largely because Messi and Ronaldo aren't scoring 60-90 goals a season anymore. They are still world class players in world Cass teams, but they're now at an age where their physical limitations have brought them down to a place much closer to everyone else's level.

Italy and England both had a decade in the European wilderness. France have not been serious threats since the great St Etienne teams, and Bayern have been struggling to cope with the decline of Robben and Ribery. There is a lot more competition now and the Spanish sides are not going to have it all their own way over the next decade, of that i am sure. The best managers in world football have all assembled in the Premier League and that is why i think English sides will have a similar amount of success that they had in the mid to late noughties. It's only really been Chelsea flying the English flag for the last 5 or 6 years and they still managed to win 2 European cups. Man U won one last year. The year before we went to a final. It's coming. I think an English team will win it this season, and I'm hoping it is us!

21 Feb 2018 09:53:40
Prem teams looking strong in CL this year. Think lfc really fancy it. Would love to play Barcelona at some point with little Phil watching from the stands 😁 Can def see Utd losing tonight too 😁.

21 Feb 2018 11:04:30
We won’t beat this Chelsea. Chelsea were excellent yesterday. Compact and positionally disciplined. Even Fabregas was brilliant in his defensive duties.
Barca started with a diamond and that is a joke against Chelsea. Barcelona had the same issue as Liverpool. No width and trying to sneak through the middle which was very easy for Chelsea to defend!

Paulinho is truly awful no wonder he was the best player in China. Busquets was beaten all ends by Willian who had a stellar. They had tons of possession ans chelea couldn’t give a toss about it. Happily sat back and hit on the counter. I just loved the way they mocked Barcelona yesterday. You can keep the ball and I don’t care!

We should have stolen Christiansen from Chelsea. What a brilliant player. He will be ruling this league in an year or two! How much did they pay for him?

21 Feb 2018 11:27:04
Watched them play last night for the first time since Valverde took over and was surprised with the slow, lethargic and unimaginative possession football. This team doesn't look close to Pep's teams or even Luis Enrique's, for that matter. Still too dependent on one magical moment from Messi or Suarez (and now more than ever, since Neymar is gone) . But they're doing well in their league, so

Sergi Roberto is just an above average utility player, as far as I can see. He does a few things above average, without really excelling in one particular area. Very much in the mold of multirole players Barcelona has had in the past like Adriano Correia and Edmilson.

21 Feb 2018 12:55:44
BD, are you Harry by any chance cos you sure sound like him, lauding Chelsea for parking the bus? Chelsea was excellent at doing what, exactly? Parking the buses and hoping that one or two shots go in? Not for me. That is the poorest Barcelona team I have seen for over 15 years (I've been watching them since 1991). They were slow, lethargic, and had no zip in their passes and movement. Chelsea were lacking confidence overall right now so I don't blame them for keeping it tight BUT come on, Barcelona were poor, hands down. Had they played us at Anfield and we performed like we did vs City, we would have beaten them just like we did City. How? We would have disrupted their slow passing nonsense and with the pace we have up top, those counters would have been WAY more lethal. I would fancy our chances vs that Barcelona side any day and we would not even need to park the bus to put 3 past them, IMO.

21 Feb 2018 12:59:37
That's funny Harry, cause we did already play that Chelsea team and we dominated them with them being ridiculously lucky with a fluke cross to even take a point.

21 Feb 2018 14:58:53
I think Sergio Roberto has been ruined at right back. I remember a few years ago, watching him in the centre of the pitch, passing was unreal in those games, thought I was looking at the next Alonso. But him playing RB seems to have had a negative effect on that part of him game.

Barca were very poor. Chelsea should of had 3 points really. They prepared to set up and respect Barcelona having the ball, countered well. Willian on another day could of had a hatrick. Rate him so much more than Hazard.

Barca only scored from a poor defensive error from Chelsea.

Also to highlight I don't think Barcelona expected Chelsea to have so much energy. They chased that ball so much i think something like 75% possesion to Barca. Thought Barcelona looked more tired than Chelsea and they have a winter break?

Was highlighted in the Porto v Redmen game. They struggled with the pace of Liverpool's game. I know it's different as we had the ball but still thought it was a interesting point to pick up on Chelsea coping with just chasing the ball for the majority of the game. I do like Barcelona and I'm not a fan of Chelsea at all, but watching the game last night felt Chelsea were robbed a little bit.

Just shows the Phil move wasn't as well thought out. No one last night looked like they would create something. Games like that for us Phil popped up. But he can't play. Thought Demebele would have injected some pace into the game, but never game on.

21 Feb 2018 15:15:35
Alistair, he's their problem now and no one really knows if he would have done any better cos he struggled vs parked buses while at LFC too.

21 Feb 2018 15:49:46
I have no issues with the style of our play. Chelsea played like their manager wanted them to play and it is the outcome that matters. What is he point in playing expensive football and gets beaten 5-0? There is a reason Barcelona looked cluelsss and you got to give Chelsea some credit. You seems damn confident of us beating almost all teams on the planet lol! I am not that confident mate.
Chelsea just cannot match Barcelona on quality and they did the right thing to sit back and not allow them any space to run into! Suarez had the fewest touches yesatday in the whole season. There wasn’t any space given for them to do their little one two’s. Chelsea got their tactics spot on ( it doesn't matter what tactic it is )
The poorest Barcelona are running away with the league without even a fight from anywhere!
We were beaten by Sevilla not once but three times in last 2 years.

21 Feb 2018 05:05:48
{Ed's Note - Tris Burke has posted a new article entitled, Review Of The Day 21st February 2018

21 Feb 2018 08:13:56
Good uodate ed, would love to bring in Doucoure, I think he'd be a quality signing.

What do you think about De Vrij Ed1? would he be a worthwhile signing? I appreciate many of you have seen him probably a lot more then I have, I've maybe seen him play 10 times or so but from what I saw he wasn't anything special? some people speak highly of him though so I don't really know.

{Ed001's Note - due to his injury history I would not even bother considering him.}

21 Feb 2018 08:32:03
True Ed and imagine him in this league, he wouldn't be able to handle it, he'd be another Sturridge in my opinion, always injured. One to be left alone imo.

21 Feb 2018 09:21:15
I find that completely disrespectful from Doucoure, not only to the fans, but to his team mates and manager as well.

Some things should stay in house!

21 Feb 2018 09:24:35
Hopefully he chooses Man U this player would not last 5 seconds in the prem injury wise he is the wrong fit for english football
lacks serious pace as well and would get expose playing a high line.

21 Feb 2018 13:03:58
Spot on re: De Vrij. His injury history is woeful and not even that, he lacks pace and physicality to thrive in the PL, IMO. We can either do better or stick with Lovs as a partner to VVD and I think they can both thrive. Everyone knows that the best individuals do NOT make the best CB partnerships. It is those individuals who can create a bond and understanding that do. Look at Cahill and Terry. Cahill is a grade A donkey individually BUT with Terry, he was England's starting CB. See how that works?

As for Doucoure, he is the one we need to get were we to sign anyone from Watford. the guy can do everything in CM.