Liverpool Banter Archive September 18 2017

18 Sep 2017 18:07:53
Ed001, I'm keen to hear your views an the raging striker debate.

Do you think Firmino needs replacing with an out and out number 9? And would it benefit us or hinder us in your opinion?

My short conclusion is that he is fine for most games, and Solanke should be given half an hour to break down the deeper defences if we're struggling. I don't agree with constant rotation though. Surely you perfect plan A instead of having second rate plan B, C, D etc.

Is Firmino a weak link in your opinion? Value your opinion as always mate.

{Ed001's Note - I feel the argument is nonsense. If you put someone else in there, ie a goal poacher, it is almost 100% certain that it would lead to us creating less chances and so would not score any more. If we play an out and out striker then there is no space for Mane and Salah to attack, so they would certainly not be able to make their runs in behind that they currently are. I just don't get why people are so obsessed with changing the attack when it is creating chances and scoring goals. The issue is the defence, not the attack.}

18 Sep 2017 18:23:40
Bravo Ed001 👏.

18 Sep 2017 18:23:42
Hallelujah ed01. Nice response man.

{Ed001's Note - there is little point, some people just want change for change's sake and they will never listen to sense as they have got it set in their mind that change is needed. It doesn't matter how we set up, there will always be games where the team will miss chance after chance.}

18 Sep 2017 18:29:59
You're right of course ed. If we made those changes to the attack, they would be calling for change the moment we didn't win. Let's not forget, no one ever wins every game. Even if you have messi suarez and iniesta in your team.

18 Sep 2017 18:32:35
Criticising the defence is fair but criticising the an attacking team that boasts firminio sturridge solanke AOC coutinio and lallana is crazy. Oh and woodburn salah and mane.

18 Sep 2017 18:40:39
Cheers Ed. 100% agree and value your opinion as always. I know you guys get a lot of abuse for daring to have an opinion 😂 i personally consider Mane and Salah as effectively being forwards this season with how high up they are. They are beyond Firmino. In fact Salah is the guy usually left up top on their last man!

As you say, people get bored, start over thinking things and wanting change! I cannot fathom us touching our attack whilst the defence is so poor!

{Ed001's Note - they are forwards, without a shadow of a doubt.}

18 Sep 2017 18:44:27
If Firmino hits the "magic" 20, very possible for him, btw, I wonder will some people's heads explode?

The first thing they'll do is deduct penalties anyway, even though they wouldn't for anyone else.

18 Sep 2017 18:55:27
Could not agree more Ed001, can we have the suggestions of who Klopp should have signed 'this 20 goals a season striker' which would have in return seen Salah and Mane not finding themselves one one one with GK's.

So let's drop Firmino and hope that Klopp can sign someone who will guarantee 20 plus goals up top plus collect the ball from deep, start attacks, press and create the space Mane and Salah need to find themselves one on one with the GK?

I do not think many of the fans calling for an out and out striker actually understand how Klopp sets our attack up. One needs to use their eyes during matches, it really cannot be that difficult.

18 Sep 2017 18:58:57
I dunno, stick Ian Rush in his prime upfront and we'd soon forget about Bobby ed.

{Ed001's Note - there is no one like Ian Rush about and what would Rush have been without Dalglish to provide the service? His time at Juve suggests he would struggle badly. Firmino is the one providing the service and Salah and Mane are the finishers now. What is the issue?}

18 Sep 2017 19:24:51
Rush still scored when Kenny retired. Also, you can say that about nearly any striker. Aguero kdb, kane Ali, Torres Gerrard, vardy mahrez, you need to be in the right place at the right ime. Lineker gazza is another good example.

18 Sep 2017 20:35:52
For me this isn't a question of whether we need to replace Firmino, this is a theoretical discussion about how we could improve our attack. Clearly it could be improved, too often we struggle to break down determined defences. Would a different striker be better than Firmino in these situations? Quite possibly. Having Salah and Mane stretching a determined defence to create space for a Van Nistleroy type striker may work better than our current set up. Not saying we should do it, just having a discussion about an idea.

18 Sep 2017 20:43:45
This just goes on and on.
Cherry picking points made by numerous posters is utterly boring now after it has now happened for the umpteenth time and wins no debates especially if you're going to try to pull rank lol.
There's no possible debate left here because people ask the moderator for their opinion to save face when the numbers turn on them knowing their likely answer from previous conversations and then it's "thanks ed" "You're right ed".
No disrespect to anyone, this is happening daily.
A poster might have completely differing views to a moderator but as soon as they're scolded, their opinion does a 180 degree u turn around.
I genuinely respect MK and you've made some valid points fella, that is clear, but Ian Rush would outscore Firmino and Mane put together so is simply a superior goalscorer and nobody could question that.
He'd not nèed half as many chances either.
Goals win games, not systems/ tactics.
Players score goals not systems/ tactics.
If it take Firmino/ Salah/ Mane 60 games this season to score 40 goals between them, that'd pretty much be what it'd likely take a Rush of this era (Lewandowski for example) .
How is that a better stat man for man?
A Rush/ Lewandowski is more efficient in front of goal.
There's no making changes for the sake of it with me.
There's also no overall best way for me with systems etc.
It's horses for courses.
Burnley at home calls for us to be more offensive.
Arsenal at home calls for a slightly less offensive option.
If something doesn't work over and over again, that's when you change it or else you're risking looking like an absolute stubborn idiot.
If looking for penetration, why would you persist in hitting a hammer with a nail on a plank of wood when you can try hitting a nail with a hammer.
It's literally insane to continue failing when you have the other option.
Nobody should receive abuse on here.
We're all adults, or maybe not, I don't know.
No doubt some immature know all will abuse me now but whatever, I'm over it and I'm over this "debate".
Let's stick to a False 9 that fails to beat poor teams regularly. (3 out of 4 games so far this season) .
Leicester away should be two wins with a False 9 cause they'll come at us, but we'll probably play an out and out Striker lol.
Good night!

18 Sep 2017 20:46:13
I thought we could do with an Ariel threat to bring on in games against deep defences. Perhaps solanke is that guy. Thing is, if you want the midfield to protect the defence then you really need a cf who can supply the wingers.

18 Sep 2017 20:53:32
How do Suarez, neymar and Messi manage or how did they

Salah firmino mane
Werner

Boom.

18 Sep 2017 21:05:42
This is getting ridiculous. We have the third highest scoring team atm. Our attack is fine. More than fine it's excellent. And we haven't even been in top gear much yet. The third highest scoring team. You would have to say "well done klopp" on that point.

18 Sep 2017 21:08:27
Or Attacking Midfielders to provide the striker.
Firmino and Coutinho to Lewandowski = goal nearly every time.
Wingers (Mane and Salah) to Lewandowski = goal nearly every time too.
Lewandowski gets 30 goals a season.
Mane and Salah 15 each.
Coutinho and Firmino 10 each = 80 goals.
Firmino/ Mane/ Salah get 18 each in a False 9 attack (over estimation) .
Coutinho gets 12 - 15 from central midfield = 66 - 69.
Which looks better?
Who makes up the other 11 to 14?

18 Sep 2017 21:31:46
That is ridiculous Olrish, you can't make up stats to support your argument and the point to it as proof.

18 Sep 2017 21:34:28
Mane and Salah will get more than 15 each. Salah is a 3rd of the way to that total already and we're 5 weeks in to a 40 week season. Mane has 3 as well.

In fact last season Mane scored roughly your estimated 15 pretty much before January where he went to the AFCON and then got injured as soon as he got back. I will put my head on the block and say they both score closer to 25 each in all competitions baring injury. Firmino also has 4 in 8 games. I can easily see him making 20.

Anyway OIrish, i have no issue with you mate and i wasn't point scoring. I just wanted to know Ed001's opinion on the matter because he is a wise old man with 165 years of football knowledge at his disposal. We'll score plenty this season. I'd say your estimation that Firmino and Coutinho score 10 from midfield is a bit lofty though. Last time he played midfield a whole season Coutinho got 5 and that was in a team that nearly won the league. They got approximately 10 each last season playing in the front 3. Plus you'd never fit Salah, Mane, Firmino, Coutinho and a striker in the same team. You'd need a player twice as good as Kante behind that or you'd get shafted. That is pretty much 4 forwards and a No.10. So they wouldn't score that many because at least one of them would be a bench warmer.

Anyway, i said earlier I'd agree to disagree and i have. You won't convince me I need a striker and i won't convince you we don't. So let's move on.

18 Sep 2017 22:02:18
So I'm struggling abit.

But do MANE and salah become slow, poor scoring wingers if you put lewondowski up front and firmino as the ten?

Just not quite understanding why they couldn't hit high numbers with a 20 goal striker up top and 10 goal firmino in the ten slot.

Explain anyone?

18 Sep 2017 22:18:35
Tbf i actually like how the goals are distributed amongst the front 3, Firmino as well as Salah and Mane could all net 20 plus this season. We don't just rely on one goal scorer, we have a bunch of players who can put them in.

It's defensively where we struggle a lot.

18 Sep 2017 22:24:14
I'd be quite happy if you're proven right MK, genuinely. Not even going to add a "but" to that.
We're all on the same team.
A lot of what I say comes from the love I have for the club mate.
I'm not even English as my profile name might hint at but I've loved LFC for 30 years, longer than most marriages.
You're clearly a true fan too so how can I not respect that and you?!
One thing I can guarantee you is that I'll never go personal on you if we debate on something.
I'm pretty sure you're of the same way.
Like I said in a previous post, if you took anything I said personally i apologise profusely.
I care about our club like no words can describe.
I care about the many friends I've made visiting Liverpool for matches.
I've never felt more at home when there, it's weird.
I like Klopp and regardless of what you may think, I want him to succeed.
I also love our 3 current first choice attackers but would just like a different option when it's not going right.
"Never" is not a word in my vocabulary lol.
You're a stubborn. nah only joking mate!
You've taken up half my day (hate Mondays anyway ha) lol and I can understand both sides for sure.
Onto the next debate: Who was better, Konchesky or Djimi Traore? 😂
Good night MK.
For the record by the way, Djimi 😂
Andy K, I can do and I will mate 😂.

18 Sep 2017 22:30:47
MK SCOUSER,
I think you will find in the summer we will have NABY KEITA for the attacking midfield position and I'm pretty sure KLOPP will be interested in TIMO WERNER, who will be an up grade on FIRMINO.

18 Sep 2017 23:04:36
The more i read the forum the more i think klopp was right Firminio is so underrated its silly, because as we can see here how many times its asked about him being dropped, if his own fans don't appreciate him how should others even though the three friends i go out and watch matches with (2 united fans and one spurs fan) would all take them to their club and would make good arguments for him to start.

18 Sep 2017 23:20:32
If we played 442 with mane and salah on the wings I think it would be a shame top business. It would take a massive part of their game away and that is scoring goals. Their main aim would become supplying the two forwards with crosses. It's an option we have though and that has to be a bonus. Maybe the two DS's up front.

18 sep 2017 23:29:39
thanks for the heads up mate. much appreciated. i don't know where i'd be without you wembley.

18 Sep 2017 23:30:42
No worries Kev. I appreciate you just want what you think is best for your team too. Like you say, we're on the same side at the end of the day.

19 Sep 2017 00:27:28
I don't think so though mate

I don't see Ronaldo, bale, neymar, Messi, ribbon, Lemar, Costa, hazard, sanchez, reus not scoring and just supplying the strikers.

Mane and salah would still hit about 10/ 15 each.

{Ed001's Note - that is just a nonsense argument. Nobody has even said that, quite the opposite, they are the goalscorers in those teams, like Mane and Salah are in ours. I could go on but this is pointless, some people just don't have the capability to see the full story and get fixated on stupid notions like a goalscorer solving all the issues of a team that scores lots of goals. So I am just going to give up on this pointless argument.}

19 Sep 2017 08:56:32
Ed but aubamayang gets 30, mbappe got 26, benzema 19, Suarez 24, Costa 20, Lew 30.

Alongside wingers getting 15/ 20.

It's nonsense to say we couldn't gave a 20 goal striker and a 2o goal winger.

{Ed001's Note - yes but you are missing the point, again. They are playing against only two teams a season that compete. The rest are uncompetitive and roll over 9 times out of 10. You get an equaliser against them, like we did against Burnley, and they fold, which just doesn't happen in English football. By the way, what wingers got 15/20 alongside Aubamayeng? Mbappe was playing as a winger with Falcao as the forward, so what relevance does he have? Oh and Lewandowski has nothing but issues with Bayern due to them wanting to only play him in certain games, which is another problem we have if we suddenly decide that we do this lunacy of altering a fully functioning attack instead of fixing the actual issues in the team.}

19 Sep 2017 09:37:32
Ed01, please don't break your head over this pathetic excuse of an argument cos trust me, it is not worth it. We are third in goals scored and were 4th in goals scored last season BUT suddenly cos our boys fluffed their lines this weekend, the false argument of "we need a striker" crap came up. A natural CF will stifle Mane and Salah as they are NOT wingers but strikers who attack the same spaces a CF would. So if a CF comes in, they will have nowhere to attack as he will take up their spaces. It is a quite simple system to grasp BUT clearly, there is none more blind than the one who refuses to see. I did not see it come up after we thumped Arsenal and the Hoff 10 - 2 overall. Did you, Ed01? Save your strength for more serious issues, my friend cos this argument makes and will never make sense.

19 Sep 2017 12:30:20
Sorry ed auba was a bad example.

No. mbappe didn't play as a winger though. He was up top with falcon and Silva and Lemar on the wings with baka and fabi/ mou in the middle.

But that isn't the point. Mane and salah are quality and will not just stop scoring goals because a striker actually finishes his chances.

You also don't have to create hopefully so. many outstanding chances with a real. goal scorer.

Also is coutinho not off next year.

Would it not be worth replacing him with firmino, having hendo and keita in the middle with Werner, salah and mane as the front three.

I don't want firmino out the team, that would be rediculous but do believe we need another 20 goals.

You seem quote happy where we are but we are already t points behind city and United.

City are player with 2 20 goal a season strikers and United are playing with 1 and have another available in Jan. And we have none. That's the difference.

{Ed001's Note - your last 3 paragraphs tell me this is a waste of my time and I am done. Fantasy football talk is not for me.}

18 Sep 2017 17:28:31
So Klopp's has confirmed, Ward, Ox and Grujic will start tomorrow.

Maybe Solanke will get his first start too.

Vardy has a groin problem so he will not feature which is a plus for us.

18 Sep 2017 17:43:24
Based on that, my team would be:

Ward
Gomez Lovren Klavan Robertson
Milner Ejaria Grujic
Salah Solanke Oxlade-Chamberlain

Subs: Karius, Alexander-Arnold, Matip, Henderson, Can, Coutinho, Ings (if fit, if not Sturridge) .

Gives us the ability to give Firmino a rest and Coutinho some match fitness later in the game. I've picked Gomez over TAA at RB simply because Gomez is probably better placed to deal with Leicester City's attacking pace our wide, even in Vardy's absence.

18 Sep 2017 17:55:40
Even our third team looks decent!

18 Sep 2017 18:01:31
Vardy will be rested. He'll play weekend for sure.

18 Sep 2017 18:09:37
We really need to try Gomez at center back, imo. League Cup's a good chance to do that.

18 Sep 2017 18:10:02
I would go with

Ward
TAA Matip Gomez Robertson
Grujic Henderson Wijnaldum
Salah Solanke Ox

I highly doubt Klopp will giving Ejaria the role at this point of being the distributor of the ball in midfield. Also expect him to give Can a rest but Coutinho could start.

If Coutinho does start I would put him in for Wijnaldum. If Klopp goes with either Klavan or Lovren at LCB then Gomez at RB for me.

18 Sep 2017 20:40:01
Playing Klavan is like giving the opposition a one goal head start.

18 Sep 2017 14:00:18
Ed001 you said that Migs is not JK's long term 1st choice bit Ward is. Could you explain further please mate?

{Ed001's Note - I did not say Ward was. I said Ward had impressed on loan. That does not make him first choice.}

18 Sep 2017 14:10:05
Does ward get the shout for league cup game?

18 Sep 2017 14:18:26
Sorry ed, just seem the thread below.

18 Sep 2017 14:29:23
Looked a pen to me super.

18 Sep 2017 15:50:14
Ah my mistake then.

18 Sep 2017 17:23:03
Ward must play tomorrow.

18 Sep 2017 13:40:24
for all those who think we need a striker, can you name one who gives us what firmino does with better finishing abilty?
don't know any myself. i really belief if bobby works on his finishing, manage to bang in more goals, we'll see top clubs wanting him.

18 Sep 2017 13:51:04
Suárez, Costa, belotti, dybala, Agüero, griezmann, Messi, Kane.

18 Sep 2017 13:53:00
That exactly is the problem we are discussing here! He is brilliant but doesn't score enough. It is the way it is! He is my fav player as well. A good and healthy Danny Ings would be an excellent weapon in Klopp's system. He is an excellent poacher as well a brilliant presser. An old Daniel Sturridge would have benched Firmino!
Firmino might play in the midfield but he simply can't play on the flanks.

18 Sep 2017 13:57:36
Firmino made more tackles, more interceptions and created more chances, than any other striker in Europe last season.

The only player who could do what he does and score more is probably Suarez or Lewandowski. Are either realistic? No.

People don't seem capable of understanding that Firmino is not there to be our primary goal scorer. He is their to press, make I'm selfish runs, link up the play, and create space for Mane and Salah to score goals. He does that superbly well and still has 4 goals in 8 games. A 1 in 2 striker is hardly a striker not worth his salt.

He'll never win because there are unfortunately too many modern day fans who think the grass is always greener and are willing to throw their old toys out the pram when they see a shiny new striker scoring goals in a completely different set up.

It's a very sad mate. Probably the hardest worker in our squad takes pelters by people who simply don't understand what his role in the team is.

18 Sep 2017 13:57:45
Hi Harry you asked is my picture the old one? It is I'll do a new one with the kid's 2 year's on this evening mate.

18 Sep 2017 13:58:57
Aguero or Firmino up top? Let's not fool ourself. Love Bobby and wouldn't swap him for anyone! But Aguero all day of the week! The thing is we rely Firmino on everything except scoring goals 😄😄. If you have a KDB and Silva behind you could afford Aguero up top! We don't!

18 Sep 2017 14:09:34
Yet again Harry drooling over other team's players. You need to learn what side you're bread's buttered mate I don't come on here to listen to how great everyone else's players are. We have a really good side that can beat anyone on their day. We've had a tough week but give me our 11 over anyone else's every day of the week as they wear red and play at Anfield. I don't give toss about any other team or their players to be quite honest.

18 Sep 2017 14:12:09
No one questions Bobby's ability MK. He leads the line and like every other player who leads the line he is always judged on the no of goals he scores mate. If he was anyother player, there wouldn't be a discussion.

I get what you are saying. He does everything to succeed Klopp's high pressing fast movement system and we rely on him completely. But we also rely on him to score goals!

18 Sep 2017 14:16:12
agree with every point MK
vakpa just listed names of good strikers but would they suit our system or are they affordable? no.

18 Sep 2017 14:16:18
If you swapped firmino for aguero then liverpool would lose more than they gain imo. Firmino is a fantastic finisher, not sure if I've ever seen aguero score a goal like Bobby did against stoke last year. I reckon firminio could play as an out and out cf and score loads of tap ins, maybe not. But we know for sure 100% that aguero couldn't create like bf.

18 Sep 2017 14:19:13
Blinding post mk.

18 Sep 2017 14:29:55
I think it's a little bit horses for courses. Firmino is deadly against better sides with Mane and Salah around him. Look how many chances he creates with space around him and pace to exploit it.

The problem comes against sides like Burnley - they don't give away many chances and you need someone who's going to put away every one, and it's also helpful to have someone who's going to be a target to hit from out wide. Firmino still has the possibility to unlock these sides with his close control and one-twos but he's not a Costa, Ibrahimovic, Lukaka etc. that if you stick them 6 yards out and ping in enough balls they're sure to score. That's where Solanke comes in.

18 Sep 2017 14:30:40
But if you take bobby out and put in Kane for example then mane and salah don't get as many goals it's counter productive and I don't think it would up our total goal tally at the end of the season. He drops wins balls back, plays beautiful one twos, drags defenders about and creates space for the two speedsters. They are really our forwards In this formation. Yes it would be nice if he finished more of his chances but he creates so many for the rest of the team. If he was as good a finisher as Kane he'd be one of the best players in the world and he probably wouldn't be playing for us unfortunately. He's been our best player this season for me but for that penalty miss.

18 Sep 2017 14:35:00
Harry we don't rely on him to score. Last season he scored 12 and assisted 11 in about 40 appearances. This season after 8 games he has scored 4 and assisted 3. If he carries on in his current form he will score 20 goals this season anyway.

My point is, he puts just as many goals on a plate for his team mates as he scores.

Salah has 5 goals already, Mane has 3 goals. How do you figure that we rely on Firmino? By contrast, Spurs do actually rely on Kane, Chelsea rely on Morata, Arsenal already rely on Samchez again, and Utd will come to rely on Lukaku when Rashford has a dip in form like all young players do.

We have goals all over the front line. The only teams in Europe with a better forward line than us are PSG, Real Madrid, Man City and Barcelona. They've all spent a small fortune to assemble them though. Our frontline cost about £100m combined across 3 transfer windows. That's 1 Ronaldo, half a Neymar, 1 Dembele, or Sterling and Sane who reside on Citys bench!

I really don't understand where this has come from.

We need to fix our defence and suddenly out of nowhere, everyone is pining for a new striker because our current front 3 only has a meagre 12 goals between them 5 weeks into the season. My god you people must've been spoilt as children.

Everton have 2 league goals this season and they play with an out and out striker. Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea all drew 0-0 and also play with out and out strikers.

We have scored in every game this season except the one we played an hour with 10 men in. Technically, you only need to score 1 goal to win so scoring is clearly not our problem. 1 unlucky game doesn't sudden nly make this our number 1 priority.

18 Sep 2017 14:44:25
I agree redwillis. Nicely put mate, our system requires the boys to interchange their positions. The wingers become the forwards, the midfielders go out wide and firmino drops back. Any team would benefit from an aguero or kane as they would too from firminio. But I don't see how kane would fit into our style atm.

18 Sep 2017 14:59:47
SGRed You hit the nail on the head!
Bingo!
Jackpot!

18 Sep 2017 14:59:53
I completely get that that we don't rely on Firmino for goals but that doesn't mean I'm convinced he's the best option for us. My issue is that to be successful you have to balance attack with defence. Our attack, not last season or so far this season, has been good enough to make up for our defense. We have to either concede less (which is something we're struggling with) or score more. I think there's a decent possibility that we would score more with an out and out #9 in the team.

18 Sep 2017 15:11:48
If liverpool weren't creating the chances I'd be worried but we are and I'm not. We have a top top goal scorer and he rarely gets a game (Dan s) it's because he doesn't really fit with our style. When we convert to 442 ds is much better and it's great to have that option. People say ds isn't the same but I disagree, he scored at arsenal right? And was England's top scorer last year (I think) we can't have it both ways unless we sign messi.

18 Sep 2017 15:19:13
If you think Firmino is being relied upon to score goals then clearly, you have been watching him with your eyes closed or cover your ears each time Klopp talks him up.

MK, I don't know where this pathetic "we need a striker" non-issue came from, myself. If we were not scoring goals enough and Klopp persisted with this system, I would understand. By all accounts and stats, that is not an issue BUT for some reason cos we fluffed our lines and made poor decisions in the final third, it is now becoming an issue where as it never came up when we thumped Hoff and Arsenal by an EIGHT goal margin. Also, you need to do a course on how our front 3 actually play and how Firmino is perfect for it BUT you will be stealing a living as it is very easy to grasp by simply opening your eyes and watching us play.

Putney, that is the challenge of every manager, IMO. Look at City. Pep has pretty much given up on defending as he kept getting plastered last season and has decided to just overwehlm the opposition with so much attacking talent that they would not be able to cope. He did the same at Barcelona as well. Do I want Klopp to do that? No. I think he is still trying to find that happy medium and that is where the issue is.

18 Sep 2017 15:23:53
Couldn't Firminho play just behind an out and out striker, still pressure from the front, still set up scoring chances for Salah and Mane but not also assists for a striker?

18 Sep 2017 15:28:21
Brilliant post ings! Cannot believe people have thumbs downed it?

Where does aguero fit into our system? He doesn't.

18 Sep 2017 15:56:23
So Sturridge scored "at Arsenal" and you 'think he was England's top scorer last season? ' Wow! I'm converted, he's world class. Lol!
Stop now please.
He can't get a game because he's not good enough right now.
Solanke came on against Sevilla over him. He plays in the England u20 team. That should tell you all you need to know on DS currently.
His goal vs Arsenal was on a plate, amazing ball from Salah. Did he score vs Burnley? Solanke was on for only a few minutes and hit the bar. More importantly though, he got into a goalscoring position which Sturridge didn't look like doing.
Look, I'd love if he proved me wrong but he's not much of an asset right now.

18 Sep 2017 15:59:15
"Love Bobby and wouldn't swap him for anyone! But Aguero all day of the week! "

So, apart from Aguero, then :)

18 Sep 2017 16:30:43
I think Son Min Heung came to BPL from bundesliga same time as Firmino. Look how much more effective Son is. He cost 22mil and Firmino 29mil.

18 Sep 2017 16:32:15
When Firmino wins the ball back for us on the edge of their area, and we score a goal, that is something you just cannot put into statistics; even the really simple ones like how many goals people score.

You have to watch Liverpool to see how vital he is to our play, and if you still can't see how good he is, or how important he is, then there is no point in discussing this with you because, as much as i hate people who present opinion as fact, you are simply wrong and don't understand his role. He is not our primary goal threat and he is not supposed to be.

He isn't an attacking midfielder, but he is simply unplayable at times in the role Klopp has him in. It isn't even a conventional false 9. He just drifts everywhere and if you actually count how many touches he has in most of our goals, you'd be surprised.

Unless you can find me a Suarez who doesn't bite people, or a more skilful Lewandowski, I'm not swapping Firmino for anyone. Klopp has pretty much built the way we play around Firmino and it is brutally effective most of the time. If Mane, Sturridge, Salah and co are wasting too many chances, then you should be blaming them, not the guy integral to a lot of those chances being created.

We are 8 games in lads and we have already scored 17 goals. Considering how bad some of you think we are playing i dread to think how many goals you want us to score before it is deemed acceptable. Last season we did struggle occasionally to score, and Klopp has recognised that and signed Salah. Another wide forward capable of hitting double figures.

When Mane is back and Salah has a bit more confidence to put away more of the chances he is getting, we'll be an absolute force offensively. Klopp does need to make hid subs earlier at times, but again, that is not a stick to be used to beat Firmino.

18 Sep 2017 16:44:09
Yeah Son looked great in their 1-1 draw with Burnley, their 2-1 defeat to Chelsea and their 0-0 draw with Swansea.

You are literally my point personified. Grass is always greener. Absolute tool.

18 Sep 2017 17:00:38
MK, what poster are you talking to?
If it's me, I'm not knocking Firmino and I'm beginning to think you're on a wind up if you still think so. I have personally explained countless times that i like him but not as a main Striker or a False 9 even. It shows little ambition in my eyes to play that system in every game in the PL for the entire season. It also shows stubbornness and lack of knowledge.
You've contradicted yourself again in your last post too mate, sorry but you're losing yourself in your own posts within a line or two. This is not to humiliate or embarrass you but read this from your last post: "as much as i hate people who present opinion as fact, you are simply wrong and don't understand his role. He is not our primary goal threat and he is not supposed to be.

He isn't an attacking midfielder, but he is simply unplayable at times in the role Klopp has him in. " You say you hate someone presenting opinion as fact then carry on immediately to present your own opinion as fact telling whoever you were talking to that they are wrong (Your way or the highway) . You're losing me now because you're contradicting yourself so I don't want to read/ waste further time on your opinions on this subject further unless you can minimise them. They're (your posts/ replies) turning into (your) opinions that you're presenting as factual according to your gospel, not everyone's. I can debate with you but it's not worth reading paragraph afte paragraph of it's contradictory. No offense mate! I promise you I'm not trying to be a prat. If I've come off as one, genuinely I'll apologise now.

18 Sep 2017 17:30:46
MK what other TOP TEAM has a striker that isn't their main goal threat? I'm sure that there's some but I think you'll find they are few and far between for a reason.
Your main striker should be always your main goal threat. And in top teams in England and abroad they generally get you 20+ goals a season. Just think about it.

18 Sep 2017 17:33:50
Why does it have to be Firminho or a 20 a season finisher, why not both.

18 Sep 2017 17:59:29
Real Madrid. Main striker Benzema. Is he a bigger threat than Ronaldo?

Barcelona. Main striker Suarez. Is he a bigger threat than Messi?

Athletico Madrid. Main striker Torres. Is he a bigger threat than Griezmann?

Arsenal. Main striker Giroud. Is he a bigger threat than Sanchez?

Wales national. Main striker Robson Kanu. Is he a bigger threat than Bale?

I'll stop because I've already blown your non-argument apart.

In fact, the 3 best teams in Europe (the 3 top teams from Spain) all have a bigger goal threat than their main central striker. Even PSG you could now argue that Neymar and Mbappe are bigger goal threats than Cavani; their main striker. Deary me. Some people make stuff up.

18 Sep 2017 18:01:40
Kev, it is pretty much a fact that Firmino is vital to our play. He has been directly involved in 7 of our 17 goals this season. That is a fact, and if that doesn't make him vital, what does?

18 Sep 2017 18:06:36
Relax, Son is not a patch on Firmino, end of story. N

Natural, Klopp does not see Firmino as his main striker. He is seen as part of a front three of strikers as their positions are interchangeable and all are expected to offer goals and assists and be unselfish and work with and for each other. This is quite a simple system to grasp BUT for some reason, people keep harping on it as if they just found out that we play this way whereas we ave been playing this way since last season. Baffling, really.

18 Sep 2017 18:08:10
Exactly Details Locked!

18 Sep 2017 18:08:56
The natural - couldn't agree more mate!

18 Sep 2017 18:14:18
Kev ds goal against arsenal was a lot harder than it looked. Who was the player that foresaw the ball would go to the far post? Ds on his day IS world class. He goes missing in a lot of games though and I think he lacks physicality. He has scored some Wc goals though. If he was past it then he would have been sold in the summer. Goal against bayern was class and that was only a matter of weeks ago. I doubt he has lost it since then.

Also, you say his goal against arsenal was on a plate? Or a tap in right? But isn't it aguero, the tap in king, that you are calling for?

18 Sep 2017 18:37:13
Sturridge is not current. Oh my god you're positive points for him are full of negatives. Would you say those negatives about Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez?
I'm not saying Sturridge is a bad player but he is not world class. Look at Lukaku, he's scoring for fun the last couple of years. I don't count him as world class. You have a weird opinion of world class it seems. Robbie Keane scored 67 or 68 goals or so for his country. Was he world class? He plays well maybe 3 games a season when fit. You think that is world class? We have had world class strikers play for us for years, Sturridge is not in their league. He had ONE and a half good seasons. That's it. He's won zero with us. World class? Pull the other one.

18 Sep 2017 18:48:30
How many has he scored MK?
How many does he not score by standing outside the box or making space or the other things he does?
He's our main striker you said but he's not our main scorer, fair enough, is Messi in our team? Is Greizmann, Ronaldo?
No, in some games we'll have Chamberlain, Woodburn, Solanke off the bench, Sturridge who hasn't scored regularly for years playing near him.
Who will score the goals then?
Do you expect them to?
Now compare to the world's best Strikers.
He's not as good as them.
If you even try to tell me he's world class, then I'm out.
Gabriel Jesus isn't world class yet and he gets into Brazil's team ahead of Firmino on merit.
He's more of a danger.
How many have each scored this season?
I genuinely don't know.
But Gabriel Jesus is not on his own upfront in many games, sometimes he's benched for Aguero. But guess what, they score more than us. They beat us well 10 men or 11. Their first goal cut us open. If Firmino was upfront for them he'd never have gotten onto that pass, playing off the last defender. We're badly missing that.

19 Sep 2017 07:49:48
Olrish how do we miss "someone playing off the last defender" that's what mane and salah both do every game. They run into the space between fullback and cb. The space more often than not that is created by Firmino either winning the ball back early before the defence are in position or by dropping back and giving the cb something to follow this leaving the space for mane and salah to burst into. He also picks a wonderful pass. You're comparing us to Man City. One of the most expensively assembled squads of all time. But who of their wide forwards would get more goals than mane or salah? We play a different way and until that sending off have always matched them well. the problem we have is not a goal scorer. It's discipline and organisation in the midfield and communication in the back line. A keeper that doesn't fill the team with nerves and a cb that clears his lines properly and doesn't make so many unforced errors. Our goal threat is top quality.

18 Sep 2017 13:29:46
does anyone think WARD WILL be used in the carabao cup if so we may need another keeper, migs in the premire league-- karias in the champions league-- ward in the carabao cup and another for fa . cup in january 😀.

18 Sep 2017 13:33:05
All 4 giving strong competitions lol.

18 Sep 2017 12:38:56
Big shout for Ed01 for writing that article on Michel Carrick. I had a good read and like you I like the player 😎. I see him as the second best player after Xabi. You might want to agree that. He is the player MK is so confident Henderson would beat by end this season!
Thanks Ed01, That was a god article mate!

{Ed001's Note - cheers Harry, always thought he was massively underrated and it was a good opportunity to start going through the to do list. There are a lot of players on it waiting for profiles, so I am going to do one inbetween the other articles.}

18 Sep 2017 12:58:45
Write a few on liverpool players as well Mate, So that I can finally take that ". Negative / Non supporter " tag from me 😄😄😄.

{Ed001's Note - there will be Liverpool players don't worry. They are the most requested and I have done a couple in the past.}

18 Sep 2017 13:00:38
I've always rated Carrick, Harry. He should've played over 100 times fir England in a geberation where he was in my opinion the best actual midfielder the country produced. Not a no.10 or an attacker, a pure midfielder. Just because i like Henderson as well, doesn't change that.

18 Sep 2017 13:29:51
Except that Henderson even at his best is not a patch on the Carrick of old. Carrick was second only to Alonso in dictating play from deep, and he still does it in his mid thirties. Never needed the legs, just his positional sense and passing abilities made him a huge asset to Man Utd.

18 Sep 2017 13:38:22
Oh my god! I want this thread not to end! Nailed it MK. You are always a wonderful poster when you appreciate playeres without those rose tinted glass 😎. Alonoso was the best though!

Ohk Ed01, I have 3 names for you to write. Kevin Keegan, Graeme Souness and John Molby ( All midfielders ) And all my fav players as well!

{Ed001's Note - I will give John Molby a miss and do his brother Jan instead if that is ok Harry? Was Keegan a midfielder for us? I know his 'auto'biography said he was a mid at Donnie and a striker with us and the footage I have seen had him up front with Toshack for us.}

18 Sep 2017 13:45:11
Carrick was a great player and seemed to make the game so easy. Awesome player, indeed.

18 Sep 2017 13:53:26
Please a profile of El Niño Torres!

{Ed001's Note - added him to my list VakPa.}

18 Sep 2017 14:03:32
No chance! You got to write on Molby 😎. I have heard he was best passer we ever had! Keegan played a lot for us and never received the true recognition he deserves. As for Souness he was the best CM in our entire history. So you got to write about all three! Your homework!

{Ed001's Note - ok mate, but I am going to do Jan not John....}

18 Sep 2017 14:07:37
Keegan played behind Toshack i thought. I've only seen old footage as I'm far too young but i thought Keegan and Toshack were the original big man small man partnership. My dad always tells me about how many goals Keegan got from Toshack knock downs and he was a Leeds fan at the time.

Then it evolved into Dalglish and Rush, then again into Barnes, Aldridge and Beardsley, then to Fowler and Collymore, then Owen and Heskey, then Gerrard and Torres, before we got to Suarez, Sterling and Sturridge, and then into present day with Salah, Firmino and Mane. Amazing how different we are now. I personally think our attack has been one of the most exciting in Europe at times across almost every era. The worst iconic attack we had was probably Owen and Heskey and Owen won a Ballon D'or and a treble!

I don't know anyone old enough except Ed025, but I'd love to hear an opinion on Billy Liddell from someone fortunate enough to see him. Some older fans apparently rate him as highly as Kenny, Rush, Fowler, Barnes and Gerrard. Though I've never heard a first hand opinion. Only ever "my Grandad said" etc.

18 Sep 2017 14:31:20
Another good post mk, liverpool fans have always been lucky to watch some of the worlds best strikers at the club. We always seem to find brilliant forwards.

18 Sep 2017 15:31:03
Carrick was unlucky to be in the same era as Gerrard and lampard. Otherwise he would have played for england a lot more. Very good player but not on the same page as stevie g.

18 Sep 2017 12:36:05
To try and rationalise our start to the season if I'd set a target for our first 5 games I would have said 10 points. In that light 8 is disappointing but not a disaster. We're in the mix with Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal and have only dropped a bit behind the Manchester clubs because they've had sensational starts.

Our defense had been appalling but, frankly, it can't get any worse and should get better if Klopp is worth his salt. We've been creating loads of chances and, once we've found our shooting boots, some cricket scores are due. Salah has made a brilliant start, Mane had continued his great form and Coutinho will be back up to speed soon. Lallana and Clyne will both improve us when they come back. There's loads of reasons to be positive, we just need to make sure we don't fall further behind the Manchester clubs whilst we get up to speed.

18 Sep 2017 12:40:53
You are not allowed to think reasonably on this website didn't you know?

18 Sep 2017 14:18:26
Great post, Putney BUT as Lfcfan said, you can't post perspective and positivity on this sight as you will be called a Klopp apologist, FSG stooge or a fan of mediocrity.

18 Sep 2017 14:56:41
Lallana is massive for us and I don't think a lot of people realise how much we miss him. He has the intelligence and vision to create so many chances for the likes of Mane salah sturridge and AOC. His positional awareness is top class too and he is fairly vocal.

18 Sep 2017 15:35:30
But Putney he hasn't improved the defense and he's in his third season, I think that's what is disturbing to a lot of fans. I'm not preaching Klopp out as that is just ridiculous but I am really really concerned that our defense and keeper situation is still a shambles in his third season in charge.

{Ed025's Note - i think thats a fair point Mc..

18 Sep 2017 16:29:32
Mcgoveb, last season he made some tactical switches that seriously improved our defence, he needs to do something similar again, he just needs to compromise a bit on his philosophy.

18 Sep 2017 10:55:38
Hi eds, just wondering does Klopp have any immediate plans to change the defensive unit? For example try a back 3? Or even try Gomez at CB?

Thanks in advance.

{Ed025's Note - hes tried everything redward, he needs to get in touch with fred carno...now theres a guy who can organize clowns..

18 Sep 2017 11:09:24
Fred Carno would have a 'conflict of interest' as he has just joined Bitters United.

18 Sep 2017 08:52:53
I don't really think defense is the problem here. I still think not having a striker for games like these is.
Studger is low on confidence and not really sprinting. I believe is we started with Solanke we would have won the game. There were far to many balls crossed in the box by TAA and milner that studger couldn't reach. (read didn't put enough effort to reach)
Also there was some poor decision making in the final third esp by coutinho who never played the right pass and always played it in burnley mix of players.
Yes we conceded a stupid goal as usual but i still don't think over 90 minutes defense was the problem. Our not finishing the chances/ half chances was.
we should have played Bobby central or solanke. Studger got the nod purely on his credentials. solanke would have done more damage. esp with his willingness to fight mee and trachowski. Studger didn't bother challenging their duo.

18 Sep 2017 09:28:34
Akshit, and how did Spurs and Chelsea and Arsenal who have a true striker do this week? Oh that's it, they fluffed their lines. When we smashed Arsenal and Hoff for fun, did we need a true striker then? Oh cos our boys who have scored goals all over the pitch since Klopp arrived, fluffed their lines in two games, we should have signed a top striker to add to the 5 we already had, right?

We didn't score cos our boys kept hitting and hoping while making poor decisions in the final third. That is where the issue lies and needs improvement. Pls, the "we need a top striker" narrative is becoming tedious and boring. We had a top striker named Benteke and he was a disaster and still is at Palace so sorry, we aren't doing that again.

18 Sep 2017 09:50:28
No, I'm sorry but it's the defence, has been for years and will continue to be so until we discover a couple of decent centre backs and a keeper.

18 Sep 2017 09:56:45
Benteke is not a "top striker". Are you Juergen Klopp himself seen as your making the decisions now? We aren't doing that again 😂.

18 Sep 2017 09:57:36
He means offload Sturridge and buy One!

18 Sep 2017 09:57:39
Bingo your wrong mste you need to play with a striker firmino is a really good player but he is not a cf. Another season of winning nothing may convince you. Liverpool have a great squad but a really poor manager and mark my words you will be coveted In a few months time. Tactically niave and blind to his own shortcomings. With klopp at ghee helm this squad will never reach its potential.

18 Sep 2017 10:12:01
I agree with akshit.
I was going to write my reasons why but it became a novel, so that's all I'm going to say.
The results and shot stats over the last 5 days speak for themselves, we needed a poacher.
Sturridge isn't at his old level right now and maybe he's not ever going to be.
We don't have a top poacher in our squad.
If we had bought someone like Hernandez in the Summer, we'd have won both of those games on Weds and Sat.
Nearly 70 shots - 3 goals.
When the keeper spilled a shot on Saturday, there was nobody within 15 yards of the goal to tap it into an empty net. The shot was only from about 20 yards and was from a Midfielder (Can/ Milner I believe) .
It was the second half and we were supposed to be desperately chasing a winner. Makes no sense!

18 Sep 2017 10:22:56
bingo are on roids mate?
when did i say buy new striker, i said we played wrong striker and had we started with solanke we would have more chance at converting the chances which was visible when solanke came on the pitch he nearly won us the game. he was available in the box often in his brief 10 minutes or so more than studger was for 90 minutes.
i don't know wht you are getting at shooting down every poster.
i am saying play the right striker, he should have had bobby or solanke there and not studger. it held us back.

and how does arsenal and chelsea get into the Mix? what are they supposed to do with how we play?
dont just stuff anything out just to prove your invalid point.

It is clear we drew the game because of not being able to take our chances.

18 Sep 2017 10:25:40
Bingo,
You understand there are more strikers than just Benteke out there right? In fact if I remember right most were against the signing on the basis that his movement and attitude were not that of a top players. Firmino is a very good player much better than I thought but he is not a natural striker.

I understand u would like to pretend all is rosey in the anfield garden but it's not atm. There are glaring holes in your team that need fixing and if Klopp would of kept his mouth shut u might of filled them.

Having said that there are many aspects of your team that is very good. Your speed in transition is prob the best in league if not close.

But it is what it is, u will score many goals but will also concede silly ones to. I've said it for a while, u are a confidence based team, when all is going well u look amazing but when it's not u look shakey and nervous. It's up to klopp to fix that and quick imo.

18 Sep 2017 11:09:57
Bingo gaining mass supporters on the page 😄😄😄.

18 Sep 2017 11:10:13
Spot on Bingo. We would have to change the system to accommodate a striker. Salah and Mane basically play as strikers with Firmino behind and they score plenty of goals. Between them. As a front 3 they have 12 this season already.

If you put a central striker in there, Mane and Salah would have to switch wings so they are on their crossing foot and they would also have to hold the width which is a waste of both player abilities.

I agree Solanke should've gone on sooner. Burnley sat in and soaked our pressure up too easily. Doesn't change the fact that our normal system scores plenty of goals normally.

18 Sep 2017 11:18:06
Mk you have won nothing or don't look like winnning anything so yes maybe a change of system is required.
Harry i think bingo is not quite the full house😂😂.

18 Sep 2017 11:39:13
Why would they have to switch to be on their crossing foot?
Bayern are pretty successful right, Ribery is right footed, plays on the left.
Robben is left footed and plays on the right.
Lewandowski is what I call an out and out Striker and plays most games and yet they all score plenty of goals in this system.
The two formers are older now so not as much as before but still, it's a very workable system.
People complain there's no plan b, well there it is.
Play with an out and out Striker.

18 Sep 2017 11:44:41
Doesn't have to be every game, but in home matches against teams you expect to beat, it can't bloody hurt.
We consistently struggle against these teams to break them down.
When was the last time we played with an out and out forward?
Torres?
Garcia played on the right and was predominantly left footed but scored a few.
Babel was right footed and played on the left and he chipped with a few (when he could be bothered) .
Like I said, it doesn't need to be every game but a plan B option.
What's the worst that can happen?
We draw against the likes of Burnley?
Think that's happening already mate.

18 Sep 2017 11:48:22
MK

Why do you think Mane and Salah needs to change their positions? Firmino is a wonderful player with very poor conversion ratio. What people are asking is not an alien. They demand a player like Firmino + natural finishing instinct. Mane and Salah could just play normal. Why would they need to start crossing the ball? Your idea of a striker must be a Berbatov. A central striker with excellent pace and movement on and off the ball would work wonders alongside Salah and Mane! Salah played excellent alongside a Dzeko at Roma! He had absolutely not problem over there.

That being said I wouldn't drop Bobby for anyone 😎😎.

18 Sep 2017 11:59:15
Garcia and Babel never broke into double figures though did they. Torres scored about half of our goals, Gerrard broke into double figures by taking penalties and free kicks to top up. Although he did have 1 exceptional season where he scored double figures from open play, and Xabi and Mascharno scored once in a blue moon. We were solid, but we relied on Torres for all the goals and when he was injured, we just used to draw or lose. People have such short memories.

And for the record, when Torres was up front we had Kuyt/ Pennant on the right wing (right footed), and Zenden/ Riera on the left (left footed) . Babel was an impact sub at best and Garcia i don't recall ever playing with Torres for us.

18 Sep 2017 12:02:01
I still say you win nothing with a weak spine, we are weak in central midfield and weak in central defence and we are shaky on the goalkeeper front. Until those issues are addressed you can mark us down as also rans.

18 Sep 2017 12:02:57
i will still stick by my original point and say it not our defense that should be major concern. I don't think the defenders we have can defend any better that is the truth as we have seen. no matter what there is uneasiness in our defense and they are hardly supported by the team. our defense is always 4 players who are not very good at it and the midfield isn't helping their cause. so i don't think Klopp can do much about the defense.
What he can do something about is the attack though. it is a very potent attack with variety of options that could be possible
ofcourse there is mane salah and firmino where we can just attack on pace. then there can be mane solanke and salah where there can be crosses. we can also go two upfront out and out with solanke and studger in games like burnley hand have salah and mane/ firmino as LM RM just to have more width and crosses drilled in the centre and many more combinations
we don't even need an immediate signing for our attack unlike our defense.
the thing is we play one way and there is nothing else and teams know how to block us out. and they will continue to do so.

18 Sep 2017 12:20:07
Akshit has nailed it. Both systems have a time and a place and all Klopp needs to do is figure out when to use different offensive tactics. That doesn't actually require any new players though. We have so many strikers that one is on loan and another is in the u23's with 2 more on the bench most weeks.

18 Sep 2017 12:13:43
This was in a defensive team though and Garcia did hit double figures a couple of times.
Lets agree that Garcia and Babel are not of Mane and Salah's quality.
If those two played with Torres though, now that would have given us a better idea.
Again, a Hernandez would have scored a couple in the match on Saturday for me.
He might even have nicked us a goal vs Sevilla.
We looked devoid of ideas in the last 15 minutes on Wednesday.
Again, this is where a plan B might work - a top poacher, not Solanke is learning his trade and should not be relied upon right now.
He's more of a target man than poacher in any case in my opinion.

18 Sep 2017 12:14:07
Harry you clearly have no grasp of how Mane and Salah play, or Liverpool for that matter.

Our main weapon is Firmino. He sits on the defenders toes and then drops deeper for the ball into feet. The centre backs then have a difficult decision. Go with Firmino and leave space in behind which Mane and Salah will run into, or drop off Firmino and let him receive the ball in acres of space to turn and run at them. This system makes Firmino impossible to pick up. If you put Firmino behind a striker, the defensive midfielder will pick him up, the centre backs will mark the striker, and their will be no space in between defenders for Mane and Salah. Hence you need Salah and Mane to stay out wide and work your way forward down the flanks, to get good balls into the box for a striker. The easiest way to do that is switch the wingers back over so they're on their stronger foot, otherwise you end up with the same situation Robben and Ribery started to create at Bayern. They run down the wing, get to the penalty area and then constantly cut inside making them predictable, and they constantly run into traffic.

Don't get me wrong, we would definitely concede less goals because we wouldn't be committing so many player in behind the opposition, but we need to go out and sign a 30 goal a season striker to do what people are suggesting. How have people already forgotten how boring we were under Rafa, and how reliant we were on Torres? The other problem with a 1 man striker system is the one Tottenham have discovered. If you have a 30 goal forward who is undroppable, nobody wants to play second fiddle to that so when your main man gets injured, your back up is a massive reduction in quality! Or have you all forgotten the days when we had to play David N'Gog up front when Torres was missing?

Our system is the best for offensive teams. That is why it is deployed by Barcelona, PSG etc. You just need to accept that we will concede more goals playing this way, and that putting in an out and out striker will actually be detrimental at times to our team.

I fully agree that in certain games and situations, Solanke should be put on to give us a proper striker, but that doesn't mean Firmino doesn't work there. Solanke is a very good future option because like Firmino he is comfortable dropping deeper to receive the ball in to his feet, but also provides more of a target up front. It is nice to have different options though and this pipe dream of us signing a 30 goal striker is exactly that; a pipe dream.

So appreciate what you have.

18 Sep 2017 12:35:42
We only realistically have Sturridge (who is not what he once was) and Solanke as out and out Strikers.
You cannot tell me that Mane/ Salah/ Firmino are considered to be Strikers can you?
They're not!
Ings is not up to speed.
You have youth prospects but that's it.
We do not have a top Striker in the squad.
A top striker would get you 25 goals in a season.
None of our current players would do that, stop being blinkered.
Mane/ Salah will score goals yes but are not Strikers and they might score just as many with a Striker or maybe more, who knows?
We'd need to try it first to know.

18 Sep 2017 12:53:06
I don't know if you're understanding what I'm saying.
Where has the false 9 gotten us this season so far?
Forget City away.
A terrible home draw with Burnley, a poor draw away to Watford, a poor draw at home to a weak Sevilla side. A fortunate ricochet pass to Mane for the win vs Crystal Palace. A very good win against a poor Arsenal side.
Is that a good enough start to the season?
No it's not!
It's the same old story, struggle against deep lying defences and beat the better teams.
This is now common place.
So why not employ the usual tactics vs the better teams and go more attacking/ ambitious vs the teams we struggle to beat each time.
There's a very famous saying about failure and insanity:
Doing the same thing over and over again and yet you expect different results.
It is a famous saying and a true saying for good reason mate.

18 Sep 2017 12:56:08
We'll Mane, Salah and Firmino are all listed on the official club website as forwards so i guess I'd have to agree with that and say they are forwards.

I don't see the point in wasting them behind a striker and sacrificing a midfielder and therefore our ability to press so high.

I don't see the issue with having Solanke and Sturridge as the plan B strikers. Do you really think we can attract better quality to sit on the bench? If we put Firmino in attacking midfield, what happens to Lallana or Coutinho? Because neither of them could play in a midfield 2 and neither will want to be starting on the bench every week.

I like our system and whilst Klopp hasn't got it perfected just yet, i don't really want to go running back to a boring 4-5-1 on a regular basis. Against teams like Burnley i fully agree with putting Solanke up top as a bit of a target in the box, but i really don't understand why people want us to play that way on a regular basis. We are the best team in the league to watch and we have improved under Klopp so why doubt we will continue to improve? i think we will win a trophy this season still so I'm going to keep the faith and give my damning verdicts when our season is over; be that literally or metaphorically!

18 Sep 2017 12:56:12
You did not get my point either. Firmino doesn't score enough for all the work that's being done and that is a worry while another striker would definitely covert those half chances to full.
I have said Firmino is at his vintage best between defenders where his unpredictable movement makes it difficult for defenders to track his runs.

Mane and Salah are wide forwards who doesn't occupy a position by themselves but depends on the pass the receive they occupy and swap a number of positions.
I have seen Firmino dropping in the middle releasing Mane.
The problem is it will be difficult to fit in both a striker and Firmino in the same team and hence I said in the
Bottom I wouldn't drop Firmino for anyone. But Mane and Salah would work excellent with a world class striker. It could be Firmino or a far more natural goal scorer

Firmino doesn't score enough and that is what we are discussing here.

18 Sep 2017 13:03:10
Stand and Ken, why do you care what and who we pick? You're mancs so I don't care what you think. Now back to Akshit's post. We don't only play one way as we have played a 4-4-2 diamond last season and even the season before and we won all the games we played it in BUT that is not what Klopp likes to do if all his guys are available as it will stifle Mane and Salah anyway, IMO.

I think MK has responded the same way I would respond and NO, I did not say that you said we should buy a striker. All I'm saying is that, bar prolly Lewandowski, Jesus or Aguero, IMO there is not striker out there who can play our system fluidly as Bobbie plays it cos Klopp does not use wingers. He uses wide forwards who are strikers and go against CB's instead of against FB's. Firmino's skills are perfect for it.

The system is quite simple to grasp as City and Spurs play the exact same way when they attack. Also, Kane and Morata, both of whom I love, did not change a damn thing for their teams this weekend. You know why? Cos like them, we fluffed our lines and did not get it done in the final third. FACT.

Can we move the team around a little bit during the game? Sure BUT that is not the issue here, IMO. That is what happened this week and not the "had we played with a striker" false argument as that is all it is, a false argument. We created enough chances to score a hatful with a penalty not given in the last two games and had we taken our chances, this conversation along with the "Firmino is not a striker" stuff would not be happening.

18 Sep 2017 13:35:29
Bongo. I have been posting on here for years and do so with great respect.
I rarely if ever refer to my team out of respect i enjoy fair and reasonsble debate and some good hearted banter slagging and craic
As a supporter of one of your rivals i hope klopp keeps his job for another 18 months but i doubt it. Witb another manager and no new players liverpool would be a threat this season because another manager would find a way to protect your awful cb's. Klopp is not the man imo.

18 Sep 2017 14:18:27
Keep posting here Ken. By all means, all welcome mate. Don't care if you support a rival. Cheers.

18 Sep 2017 14:36:09
Cheers kev.

18 Sep 2017 14:40:41
Ken, I know what we are capable of doing as an attacking threat so you have nothing to teach me on that front. Also, that is your opinion but guess what, I still don't care about what a manc has to say so what you think Klopp will achieve or not, or how long you think he will stay or not, is irrelevant to me as I have never cared for Utd nor what they do or don't do. I stand by that and my description as to why a no 9 won't work for us in the way we play and MK Scouser has supported my point with an even better description than I did. You are entitled to your opinion and so am I BUT neither of us are entitled to our own facts. God bless, my friend.

18 Sep 2017 17:48:26
I do have an issue with this constant theme of we didn't need a true striker when we beat this team or that team, no we didn't but then we didn't need good centre backs when we beat them either. The issue isn't the games we win it is the constant drip of games we draw and lose where those weaknesses are the reason. Poor defending and poor finishing will stop this club winnng trophies. We are relying on guys who are 1 in 6-10 conversion rate at best to do the job of a player scoring every 2 or 3 chances. Great when we batter a team and those players are on song, but when there are less chances or they are on their couldn't score if there til tomorrow mode then it becomes an issue. This is the same situation as bit Benitez and Rodgers, not how good the good days were but the inability to go out and get a job done on the nothing special days against the sides that title winners are beating every time.

18 Sep 2017 06:56:15
Reading between the lines, it's pretty easy to see that Southampton will sell Van Dijk in January, or in the summer at the latest.
It's just a case of if they'd sell to us (I think they would personally once the fee is fair plus an extra few million for the upheaval in June) .
So between now and then and assuming Van Dijk still wants to come to us, let's hope we can stay near the top 4, we could still do with another CB in the Summer and either play Karius/ Ward or loan one of them out for goodness sake.

18 Sep 2017 07:06:33
Completely agree OIirsh, I''d like us to sign two CB's and give Ward a good run.

18 Sep 2017 07:24:35
Yep, I'd give Karius and/ or Ward a run of games now.
Mignolet played ok on Saturday bar his positioning for the corner Matip cleared off the line, but other than that he was ok.
He never really makes unexpected save does he?
Obviously he has saved a few penalties and made one reaction save out of the top drawer vs Stoke last season but in nearly 5 seasons that's just not enough, not even close.
A top keeper should earn you about six to ten points a season.

18 Sep 2017 08:04:01
Players priorities changes faster than Usaain bolt. He might find City an attractive option next summer.

18 Sep 2017 08:22:22
Yeah of course, especially if he feels we hung him out to dry as may be the case.
He did all he could for a move from his side to be fair, was there enough done from ours?!
Doesn't seem like it as we had to try to stick to our statement promise to back off from him.

18 Sep 2017 08:12:29
I can't find it anymore but would be interesting if anyone can find that piece about saves keepers are expected to make and saves they aren't. There was a table of EPL keepers, drawn up on a points for unexpected, lose for not making expected saves, but I can't remember where Mignolet was on it because the point they were making was around Hart and Bravo.

18 Sep 2017 08:29:08
Spot on, Olirish. Hopefully, he still wants to come to us and we are clearly still interested.

However, I disagree with you that Migs played okay. He did not. In fact, he was partly at fault for their goal as you will see if you read ED01's game review. I saw the exact same thing Ed01 saw in real time and I blamed him first before the other CB's. On the Mee header cleared off the line, why was it cleared off the line? Could it be cos he was caught in no man's land so Matip rightly read the play and cleared the ball? Migs is crap and will always be crap. Had we lost, he would get the blame as the errors he made show.

A GK is supposed to bail his team out, save the balls he is not expected to save in order to preserve a win or a point away from home or a chance to keep going for a winner or equalizer. Migs is NOTHING like that and Klopp needs to end this GK rotation nonsense and bin him so Karius and Ward can battle it out cos they are more talented than Migs and just need experience.

18 Sep 2017 08:29:36
He couldn't do anything about their goal on Saturday. That was down to comedy defending.

18 Sep 2017 09:38:06
Mr Dennis, watch the goal again and watch Migs through out the play and read Ed01's match review about Migs performance and you will see exactly what I am saying as I was not the only one who saw that. Some other posters like Something Red saw the same thing.

The GK is supposed to bail his defenders out when they screw up as DDG did for Utd for a few years when they were just crap. Migs does and never does that for us which is why he should be binned. The bar is so low for Migs it's becoming pathetic and deluded. He gets plaudits for doing the most basic of things right and that is just unfair. Klopp has to end this right now and the first way to fix the GK issue is to first of all, remove the first problem as in, bin the guy making hapless mistakes since he got here and move from there.

18 Sep 2017 11:03:10
I agree with Bingo, Migs distribution and decision making are awful at times. We have too long put up with his average performances. He has always conceded goals, despite having international CBs in front of him.
Some people say oh he made a few saves that got us to top 4 last season. that's is ffin job. Karius 10 prem games 1 defeat last season, was hung out to dry because the Neville chuckle brothers and Mr how many own goals did I score, Carragher got on his case after the Bournmouth game.
The team will not be worse if Karius or Ward came in. Migs has had his time let's give the others a chance.

18 Sep 2017 11:03:54
What did you see for the goal from Mignolet Bingo?
Not being a smart ar$e, I just can't see what his error was.
Unless you're going to say, he was out of position.
Yeah as I stated above, he was caught in no man's land for the clearance from Matip off the line from Mee at the corner near the end.
He did make a decent save right after too, but it was one he should make.
Which brings me back to a point I have made a few times, he makes very few world class saves.
I could count on one hand the number of world class saves he has made in 4 full seasons, it's simply not good enough.
He should make 4 or 5 world class saves per season to be good enough.

18 Sep 2017 11:27:46
We should be going all out to secure Butland, he is class, with a good decade or so infront of him, the cb's are very very average and have been for years, we have a Wenger situation where it's not getting addressed properly.

18 Sep 2017 12:11:12
The goal was solely down to the centre back and lack of cover from midfield. Klavan's decision to dry hump Matip and Brady (when he had no hope of ever getting to the ball), was ridiculous, it left Arfield with acres of space and time to pick his spot and he certainly did that. I doubt any keepers would have got to that one. Fair enough criticise when he makes mistakes, but there is no way Mignolet was at fault for that goal, look at the chuckle brothers playing in front of him. Courtois or De Gea would look awful behind our defence.

18 Sep 2017 12:40:07
I agree Mr. Dennis.
I didn't see any review blaming Mignolet for that goal.
I also don't see how he could be at fault when as you say the player was left with acres of space and placed the shot well into the corner.
I'm far from Mignolet's biggest supporter, but I simply cannot see how any keeper could be blamed for that goal.
Believe me, when he makes errors, I will rip him immediately but not for that goal.
Can someone tell us why he is supposedly at fault for it?

18 Sep 2017 13:07:26
Olirish, go and watch the goal again and this time, fix your eyes on Migs all through the play. Then, read Ed01's game review as he alludes to the exact same thing and then we can discuss. Until you do that, you will not be able to grasp what me and the Ed's and prolly many others saw as I was NOT the only one who saw it. Again, I am not saying he was to blame solely BUT to say that he did not help matters at all cos he is simply a crap GK, unable to bail his defenders out when they screw up, like any good GK should do.

{Ed001's Note - I did not say he was at fault, a top keeper would have saved it by being set, but I have no faith in Mignolet doing so, even if he had been set. I was just pointing that he gave himself no chance to save it because he came out of goal for no reason, then had to run back and was still going the wrong way when the shot came in. He should have been set and only having to throw himself at the shot.}

18 Sep 2017 13:20:02
Mr Dennis, DDG or Courtois have shown an ability to save their teams when their defence goes missing. Migs record on that front is near non-existent. I don't know if another GK would have saved it BUT we know that another GK would prolly not have gone walk-about in the build up to that goal hence, giving him a better chance to save the shot.
Also, I never said he was at fault solely for the goal as there were mistakes across the board starting with TAA getting beat for the first header. What I am telling you is that Migs cannot be relied on to bail his defenders out when they make mistakes and his mistakes highlighted in this goal, shows why he is crap and needs to go.

A GK should be able to help us out of a jam and sorry, his hidden mistakes cannot be tolerated. DDg spent a near life time covering for Utd's hopeless defence under LVG and he was the reason they were not midtable fodder. Not saying he should do a DDG BUT he is not able to protect the team when they screw up as that is the basic function of a GK in the end, save his team's bacon. The mistake on the goal is another example of that.

18 Sep 2017 13:22:55
Olirish, Yess he was out of position which is yes, another hidden mistake and it is criminal for a GK cos you give yourself almost no chance of having a go at the shot as he was back-pedalling and shuffling to his left the whole time hence, his feet were not set when the shot came. Sorry, if your feet are not set as a GK facing a shot then, you have no chance. These are the most basic of things a GK does and he is pi** poor at that. I know we both agree that Migs is crap. Just showing another reason to support that point.

18 Sep 2017 13:31:12
Exactly, he did slightly put himself out of position. That I saw but there would have been nothing he could do about the shot really unless he is more explosive on his toes.
This is a complaint I have about him regularly.
He is flat footed a lot.
Not up on the balls of his feet = less explosive with shot stopping or foot movement. He does this time and time again. Mignolet is extremely flat footed. But it was a decent finish too.

18 Sep 2017 13:31:45
Spot on, No Fin. Those Chuckle Bros and Carra targeted him cos he made a mistake or two and ONLY lost one game in the 10 he played in cos the boy had the temerity to standd up for himself after being bullied by Neville. Then Carra, the sellout (Ed01's word not mine) comes on the scene and tells him to shut up and do his job just cos he told off his manc bro Neville and stood up for himself.

It was a witch hunt cos we were on fire in that time and the Chuckle bros were looking for something to harm Klopp with. Not saying Carra should not criticize us at all BUT he should have kept an even keel and diffused the situation. Instead, he fanned the flames hence, giving the chuckle bros. cover to say "Well, an LFC legend is slating him so no witch hunt here", right? Pathetic. Klopp should never have dropped Karius and now we are in the shambles we are in as a result.

19 Sep 2017 15:44:48
Sorry but really don't agree with the idea the keeper is there to protect the team when they screw up. They are there to do a specific set of roles as part of the team.

The keeper is there to make shot saves which can happen and still mostly do happen without requiring screw ups from outfield players. If your keeper saves what you'd expect he's good, if he saves stuff you wouldn't normally expect then he's very good.

He is there to kill the ball when team is under pressure by getting hands on it, from crosses, corners, through balls, ball bouncing loose in the area. Good keepers do this when it is on, don't chase it when it isn't.

He is also there to be a footballer, start moves with quick distribution, distribute across a range of methods and distances, be available for a pass to recycle or retain possession.

Lastly he's the one with the best view of what is happening so he should be an organiser, he should be letting the players in front of him know what is going on that they can't or don't see, he should be getting them into the positions he needs them in for when it is his time to work.

Any time he covers for the outfield screwing up is a side effect of him doing his job not because that is his job. If his job were to cover for their screw ups then by implication it is the keeper's fault if the opposition still score, which is patently wrong.

If you judge Mignolet on those he comes out as pretty average across the board and I say average because most keepers aren't great at most of those tasks. The number who are actually good and good for the right reason is very low, e. g. those where their positioning is good so they make good saves, not they make worldy saves because their positioning is crap to start with.

18 Sep 2017 02:14:17
Heard Ed01 you mentioned that you were planning on keeping up with more Leipzig games and keeping an eye on our golden boy Keita

Would be interesting to hear your opinion on what you think of Naby so far I think he's a great player to watch, love hearing your views on players and their ability!

{Ed001's Note - so far he has been excellent but nothing like Kante at all, no idea why some people compare them. Keita wants to run with the ball, Kante wants to get it and then give it. Keita has a much better range of passing and vision too. However he is not a patch on Kante for protecting the back four, but then who is?}

18 Sep 2017 05:28:46
Kante is not 10% of what Kieta gives any team going forward while both Kante and Kieta are very good holding players. Kieta has played the deeper role and he has excelled, Coz he is positionally such a solid player.

{Ed001's Note - sorry but that is simply not true and clearly you have not watched enough of Kante. He is very good and getting better on the ball, especially at looking for quick forward balls, which is why Leicester have fallen apart without him. His ability to steal the ball then launch a quick counter is invaluable. Keita is better, but it is nothing like as big a margin, especially as Keita has a tendency to sometimes hang on to the ball to beat a man when an early ball would have been better. Kante always looks to play the early ball, which means the opposition defence has less time to get itself set.}

18 Sep 2017 05:53:10
Will Can be the one who protecting the back four?

{Ed001's Note - I doubt he will be protecting ours next season.}

18 Sep 2017 05:55:41
That is coz Kieta has the ability to take the ball forward by himself. He is an imposing playmaker in my eye. Excellent vision and terrific range of passing both short and long. Kante doesn't score enough even if you play him slightly high up. Kieta chips in with regular goals and assists. Kieta spread the ball efficiently. He has an attacking mindset. Kante is a proper old school B2B. A better version of Nainngolan while Kieta is a playmaker who could defend brilliantly in the mold of Dembele

I like Kante for what he is one of the simplest guy around on football pitch until I saw Kieta!

{Ed001's Note - no, it is because he does not yet realise the effectiveness of letting the ball do the work. You can split a defence much more quickly and effectively with a good early ball, which is why we play the way we do.

Look Harry, masturbate over Keita all you like, but it is not going to stop Kante being a superb player and as effective at what he does as Keita. Please stop comparing players that are nothing alike. Nainggolan is nothing like Kante, Keita is not a playmaker like Dembele.

Both Keita and Kante are clearly excellent players, but they are not alike and not like Nainggolan or Dembele. The closest player I have seen to Keita is Lallana, and even that is not a particularly close comparison, just that both are excellent at pressing the ball, willing to chase around to win it back, but both want to run with the ball and look to thread passes through to forwards. However Keita is a lot, lot better than Lallana from what I have seen, especially at shooting. However the comparison falls down when it comes to the box, as Lallana wants to get into the box and be involved, whereas Keita seems to prefer to hang around the edge of the box to pick up loose balls, which is more like Kante in that respect.}

18 Sep 2017 06:12:14
I like Keita but for me his biggest weakness is that he tries the killer pass too much, resulting in the defence intercepting it. I hadnt thought about it but releasing it quicker would solve this issue.

18 Sep 2017 06:42:23
January 2019 will be fun with the African Cup of Nations:
Keita
Salah
Mane
Matip?

😡.

{Ed001's Note - it is no longer in January Ron, it is being played in June from now on.}

18 Sep 2017 06:19:40
I have never said I don't like Kante. I rate Kieta a lot lot more than Kante and I am sure he will show it with us next season. He is the best dynamic CM we have purchased in over a decade!

18 Sep 2017 06:36:47
i suppose keita and kante in the same team would be a very strong midfield then ed001 you think?

dreamland bt id give everything to get kante and aldeweireld if we sell coutinho next season. what a team that would be.

{Ed001's Note - not for me, one or the other for me, they would get in each other's way as a pair, I think. Kante works at his best with someone sitting covering so he can get everywhere, Keita is the same. It would be very similar to the problems we have now, where everyone is trying to do the same thing in central midfield and there is no dispersion of roles, so everyone ends up in the same patch of grass leaving acres of space for the opposition to exploit.}

18 Sep 2017 06:56:00
Hence we need to keep hold of Can than anyone!

18 Sep 2017 07:03:48
Both Kante and Kieta would work well with a solid DM. Both could also drop into that role but then you're taking their best attributes. Kante is a decent passer of the ball coz that is not his biggest strength where as Keita is a terrific passer of the ball. Both long and short. Keita is a better carrier of the ball like Can or Coutinho. Kieta scores goals which place him above Kante.
Kieta is a better player coz he has a lot more to offer than what Kante.
If the Can learns the art of positioning and signs a contract then Keita - Can - Coutinho would be the best midfield in the langue without a shadow of doubt!
Take it from me 😎.

18 Sep 2017 07:16:38
That's excellent news regarding the ACON.

Ed1, it very much looks like Can will be on his way, will the club look to replace him? Or keep things as they are once Keita arrives?

Just reading your views on player similarities, will Keita keep Lallana out of the team or could we play both?

{Ed001's Note - I see Keita as a long term replacement but, in the short term I can see them both together. I do expect the club to look to replace Can, but it will not be immediately pressing as a need so it might be a season or two away.}

18 Sep 2017 08:10:01
Hang on Harry, literally 3 days ago you were bleating on about how Can doesn't have the positional sense to play DM, and now you reckon he will be part of the best midfield trio in the league? Quite hilarious that your trip has 2 players in it who won't be at the club next season, and another yet to kick a ball in the Prem.

Mate you need to calm down with the extreme opinions 😂.

18 Sep 2017 08:04:12
Careful Ed001, i got mocked for saying Keita was a better but similar player to Lallana 😂 i got told he was anything from a Kante type player to the next Yaya Toure!

Completely agree with your assessment though. I've watched him a few times now and every time i think he looks like a rich mans Lallana. Although he glides along with the ball more like Eden Hazard. So like you say, even that comparison is loose.

I don't understand why he can't just be the first Naby Keita instead of the next Lionel Messi 🙄.

{Ed001's Note - people like comparisons for some reason mate. I don't know why.}

18 Sep 2017 08:27:07
Ok cheers Ed.

18 Sep 2017 08:38:49
Good point Adam.

18 Sep 2017 08:40:04
MK, are you surprised? They guy speaks in absolutes as if that is supposed to convince the rest of us that he knows what he's talking about. It does not and it rarely ever has. Did I also mention that he changes his tune like he did now, the same way a Diva changes her shoes? You should hear the way he speaks about Mou and Utd.

18 Sep 2017 08:43:14
Oh MK, You did not read my post in full.
". If Can learns the art of positioning. " That is his biggest challenge and I expect him to improve up on it during the course of the season! Can is not positionally sound but he does possess some unique skillsets that are rare among center midfielders.

18 Sep 2017 09:39:09
Sure, Harry. Sure.

18 Sep 2017 10:03:12
Can is not a DM. He doesn't want to play there, it is a waste of his beat attributes, and frankly he isn't that good there. Maybe he could be, but he could be a great player further forward with a bit more freedom.

The only thing that really matters though is the fact that it's not where Can wants to play. Just like Chamberlain did at Arsenal to avoid being a wing back, Can will run his contract down here to avoid being a DM, or worse, a centre back.

He will leave mate, batting a major change if heart from Klopp on his system, or a new manager taking over. Keita, Lallana, Henderson, Wijnaldum etc will all be ahead of him. He won't stand for that and who can blame him? We'll be just fine though so don't panic. Those 4 i just listed along with the younger lads such as Woodburn and Chamberlain able to provide cover will stand us in good stead next season. It will be okay.

Let Can and Coutinho go though mate. They don't want to be here long term and you are just setting yourself up for disappointment.

18 Sep 2017 11:19:21
He is not a DM! Yes he is a lot more than just a stopper. Keita is ahead of him but I am sure they could both play together. I don't know how Mr baby face Henderson is ahead of him. Can is the victim of Henderson's captaincy that makes him an automatic choice. Can is a better player and everyone knows it except you. But no complaints. Wijnaldum is a different player to Can as well Lallana. They all could all be B2B players but possess different attributes to each other!
Can will play as the deepest midfielder at Juventus with Pjanic alongside him. If not I ll stop watching football! Let's keep this post as it is and come back in an year time 😎😎
Not sure why the club decided against to sell him? There was a decent money on the table. I ll tell you why! Keeping Can was more benificial than selling him!

18 Sep 2017 12:09:06
Eds, any holding mf or defensive mf we are looking at?

{Ed002's Note - Not at this time Angus, and I doubt that they will be looking for one in January unless a change of formation is coming.}