Liverpool Banter Archive December 16 2016

 

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16 Dec 2016 17:53:50
Ed 02 do you still think brendan robbers will regret saying divock origi and world class in the same line?

Believable2 Unbelievable5

{Ed002's Note - Obviously - he isn't and he won't be.}

16 Dec 2016 19:13:22
As capable/ excellent as Origi looks and has been in the tail end of last year and the start of this year, he is not in the same class as the likes of Ronaldo, Messi, Suarez etc. And it is not because he's a different type of player, he's just not. Still, he's a player that I'd have no problem seeing lead our lines against anyone.


16 Dec 2016 19:23:21
He might not be world class but a steal at £10 million.


16 Dec 2016 20:38:06
There's only 3/ 4 world class players in the league for me
Augero
Costa
Sanchez
De Gea

Hazard, debryne, couts and Ozil are close, origi is a great player but he won't be reaching the heights of the guys mentioned above I don't think.


16 Dec 2016 20:38:44
He's only 21 so he's got another 5 or 6 years before his full potential is reached so we'll see how he turns out.


16 Dec 2016 21:06:58
That is true DaRedMan, Drogba (an undoubtedly world class player) at 21 looked good and promising but hardly like he was going to be an unstoppable force of football.


16 Dec 2016 21:44:18
What does 'world-class' even mean? Its a subjective term.


16 Dec 2016 22:49:50
Annie, was thinking exactly the same thing. Couldn't care less if he is given that title or not the lad is doing really well at the moment, I'm really pleased for him.


16 Dec 2016 23:36:31
There aren't too many 21 year olds that look as rounded as him that's for sure.


16 Dec 2016 23:42:57
To me world class is that limited group of players who are recognised as being the best (or amongst a group of the best) players in the world. Its both subjective and overused.


16 Dec 2016 23:50:47
Would rather have a world class team than 1 world class player.


17 Dec 2016 01:23:24
World class to me means if you were to make a squad of 22 players picked from all teams in world football
The 22 players selected would be deemed world class.

As to who does the picking is another thing.

And the best 11 or 22 players in the world playing together in a team doesn't automatically mean that this is the best team in the world.

Origi is at aged 21 an international class player and a great exciting prospect. but cannot be described as world class.

In my opinion at the moment Suarez is world class as is messi and Ronaldo.

But opinions are likd arseholes, everyone has one.


17 Dec 2016 09:21:05
Spot on Liddelland 😎.


16 Dec 2016 19:03:28
I'm not saying your right or wrong Ed but what makes you think he won't be?


{Ed002's Note - Others have already answered this.}

16 Dec 2016 20:27:27
It depends entirely on what definition of world class is Ed002, I'm interested in what criteria they have to meet for you? Would you put Suarez in that bracket, even with his *ahem* past incidents?


{Ed002's Note - Someone has adequately answered this.}

16 Dec 2016 22:30:56
Shame on you Ed2 how can you possibly say that?! He has all of the attributes and if he's coached in the right way he may well become one of the best strikers in the world. I think Ed2 will regret saying 'he isn't and he won't be' when Origi wins the ballon d'or!


17 Dec 2016 01:07:00
ed02, how do you know he won`t be? I Seem to remember a certain Robert Lewandowski who arrived at 21 to BVB and couldn`t get a game under Klopp in his first season. We all know what he would later become. Origi is 21 and still learning. No one knows what he will be in the future so I suggest we wait and see, don`t you think?


{Ed002's Note - No - he is simply not that good.}

17 Dec 2016 03:50:38
No sane person would ever call Origi world class. One decent 2016 does not make you world class.

But I disagree with ed002 on the other half of his comment, I don't understand what makes him so sure that he won't be world class. He has everything to be world class.


{Ed002's Note - So you think Origi will be one of the two or three best strikers in the world? It is nonsense Nick.}

17 Dec 2016 11:03:58
I think Origi is in the top 3 young strikers in the Prem.

My definition of world class is to be in the top 10 players in the world for your position. So using that has the definition Origi can definitely become world class.

However, most people I know tend to define world class as the top 3 players in the world for their position. I just think that is too difficult to depict though. For me, Augero, Costa, Lewandowski, Griezeman, Suarez, Neymar and Aubameyang are all pretty much of the same class. And i have probably overlooked someone else as well. How can you pick 3 players from that list and just discard the others as not world class. They are all 30 goal a season strikers.

I think every generation has a few players who are just special though. Ronaldo and Messi being obvious examples. Zidane and Ronaldinho before them. Maradonna, Pele and Best more historically.

Either way it is all subjective. Origi is a great player who could easily score 20+ a season in a few years time. So whether he is world class or not, he is a goal scorer. Goals win you games, not poster boys. Kane and Vardy aren't even semi good players, but they both fired their respective teams into a title race last season simply by scoring goals. If Origi does the same, he can be a little rough around the edges for all I care.


17 Dec 2016 11:16:19
My definition of world class is the 3/ 4 best players, irrelevant of position.


17 Dec 2016 12:32:24
I'd rather he just kept banging the goals in for LFC than be defined as "world class" and poached by Madrid/ Barcelona/ Chelsea/ PSG.


17 Dec 2016 14:01:34
If we are going to accept that Drogba was World class, then keep in mind he was nowhere until the age of 24. In the previous years he never scored more than 7 goals per season, while playing for average teams. And suddenly at 24, he banged in 21 goals in 39 games for Guincamp and then moved to Marseille where he did even better. The rest is history. I don't think Origi is a late starter like Drogba, but the point remains, that anything can happen. When LFC bought him, did anyone think that Suarez would end up being the 2nd or 3rd best forward in the World, by the time he left? I don't think so. Of course, there are unexpected failures (probably far more than the successes), but you still never know.


17 Dec 2016 15:36:38
No one knows a freaking thing about what the future holds for anyone so people should keep their projections to themselves and stop prognosticating on the future, of which they know nothing about. That is my overall point.


18 Dec 2016 03:38:13
Not exactly ed, I just don't think the 'world class' label is limited to the world's top 3 players.


{Ed002's Note - This is the reason so many people throw around the term for the likes of Origi - who clearly isn't and won't be. Ironically when the Liverpool fans are not trashing all of the players they are saying they are world class.)

16 Dec 2016 17:38:08
There's a lot of talk on pulisic here tonight. My opinion is we already have 3 teenage talents that can play where he does, why waste money?

Believable15 Unbelievable3

17 Dec 2016 01:09:32
The boy and his father have said he`s not leaving. BVB ain`t going to sell so I suggest that people take a hint and move on. Besides, we have players in our academy chumping at the bit to show their skills. Focus on them instead buying someone just as young and untested in the PL, to take their place.


16 Dec 2016 16:57:45
Ed1,

Would love to have your view: If Sturridge is fit, do we need to play him Monday?

Or should he be on bench?

Believable3 Unbelievable0

{Ed001's Note - bench, unless one of the three up top are injured.}

17 Dec 2016 01:11:29
Bench until he can prove he deserves to start over them not just on Monday but going forward because for right now, he doesn`t deserve to start over any of the front three currently.


16 Dec 2016 14:05:04
Waro, if you are about I would love to hear your views on the trialed video ref in the CWC. You seem like quite a traditionalist and a long time fan of football. It's easy for us 'youths' to say it is a must have, but I am skeptical myself and value your honest opinions.

Also other posters, please don't troll the thread and get it deleted before I can see the reply please!

Believable4 Unbelievable3

16 Dec 2016 16:05:00
I may be mistaken here, Adam, but you seem to be calling Waro out to ask for the old farts view!

Waro, I'd be angry! ;-)


16 Dec 2016 17:28:09
I watched the video replays earlier and I still don't think it was enough for a penalty. Inconsistency and interpretation will be rife.


16 Dec 2016 19:14:11
It doesn't solve the problem of interpretation, it just adds another viewpoint.


17 Dec 2016 01:51:43
I'm sure I count as an old fart.

Pros - better decisions, less pressure on the ref.
Cons - possible disruption to a free flowing game.

To make it work the crowd need to be kept informed. As with cricket and the use of technology for LBW decisions, some mechnaism for allowing the referee's judgement to stand may be useful. There are certain issues where things are subject to the referee's interpretation, e. g. was a handball deliberate or not.

My view - anything that makes sport fairer is good as long as it does not disrupt the flow of the game too much. It will be good for the integrity of the game. Bring it on!

I'd also like to see a post match citation process as per Rugby.


16 Dec 2016 12:52:59
I'm struggling to understand the fascination with signing a 30m player to replace mane for 4 games . All I keep reading here is should we sign this lad for 30m, or this for 25m .
I thought, and I may be wrong . Liverpool were near enough broke and overloaded with players .
I personally would love the three from the u-23 to be tried . Wilson woodburn and ojo.
All look like the have a good future ahead of them and can hopefully make the grade .
Wining the title would be amazing but top four and the finances to, push on next year is a must .
Take care my friends, hello from Melbourne . And all hope for many many more great goals .
P. s.
I was at a Robbie fowler meet and great last month . Had an amazing time and won tickets to watch Liverpool "if"" they come here next year .
Praying they do.

Believable10 Unbelievable6

16 Dec 2016 13:54:45
Agree with the post above ^^.


16 Dec 2016 14:46:13
Thank Heavens that those fans asking for 30m signings to replace a player for a month, don`t run the club as we would have been in administration with such an illogical thought process and approach.


16 Dec 2016 16:06:14
I'm waiting for Hendo to get another yellow card ban and for fans calling out to offer Chelsea £60m for Kante to cover the 2 matches :rolleyes:


16 Dec 2016 21:09:04
Whilst i'm all for developing the kids I don't think they should be pressured into taking responsibility for winning matches for the first team yet.

There seems to be an obsession with everyone thinking that the only call for a new wide player relates to Mane going to the ACN yes this doesn't help but its not the overriding reason, the squad is crying out for another proven top level wide player. Look at recent weeks that we have dropped points its no surprise this coincided with coutinho and llalana both missing through injury.

Firminio is never going to do a long term job out wide he is most effective through the middle and sturridge won't do it (when fit) either.

Name the first team ready PL proven wide players in our team? Mane, Markovic (leaving), now i'm struggling? Coutinho isn't a wide player neither is firminio or wijnaldum.

Wilson, Ojo, Woodburn all good talents but not ready for the rigors of regular 1st team action.

So again to repeat the need for a wide player is not just for Mane but as a need for the squad as identified by Klopp.


{Ed001's Note - Markovic is neither proven nor first team ready. You are another one of those who thinks money grows on trees and we should just buy everything. That has never been the way Liverpool did anything. We made our players into greats. Origi, Firmino, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Coutinho, Mane, Moreno, Milner and even Henderson are all first team squad players who can play wide roles, if needed. What we need to do is make use of the squad we have, rather than buying players for every gap. Save the money to buy what we actually need, a top class centre back and left back.}

16 Dec 2016 21:58:09
Not at all and I did say Markovic was going i wasnt suggesting he was prem ready although I can see how you could read that wrong, not once did I suggest we have to spend big either. Roll on the transfer window and if i'm wrong and we don't get a player in for the wide role ill be fist to hold my hands up. I don't disagree with the need for a LB however the money for a CB should be generated from the sale of Sakho albeit probably in the summer.

I stand fully by my opinion that i'm entitled to that Liverpool need a wide player in this squad!

Didnt say we don't make players great either but again as i say I didn't suggest we have to spend masses of cash to get a player that's prem proven so don't see the logic in the nonsensical statement of me thinking money grows on trees.


17 Dec 2016 01:18:15
We have wasted money for the past few seasons on average players so at some point the madness has to end. It seems it is the English way: throw money at any footballing problem. Even when we had a patchy run. olution? Splash the cash on Van Dyke, Pulisic, Promes, Azmoun or some dude no one knows nor cares about. Klopp found the solution vs Boro w/ o spending a penny. We have the squad that can fix our issues because we have a coach who shockingly for once, knows what he`s doing 95% of the time. Keep the money until you get the guy you REALLY need like we got Mane for 34m (who we needed badly) and use the squad to plug other holes.


17 Dec 2016 01:54:02
Eds, who is the centre back you will sign if you are klopp?


{Ed001's Note - why do I get asked this all the time? I have said repeatedly, I am bored of people not bothering to read what I have said.

As for jkh, your own comment tells everyone you want us to throw money after a winger we don't need, the only nonsensical comments were yours and your attempt to justify them.}

16 Dec 2016 00:01:39
I saw this week that the first penalty had been awarded using video replays, in Japan I think. Wondered everyone's opinion on implementing this into premier league?
As a big rugby fan it's something I've always criticised football for, I understand the controversy sells papers and the rest but surely it would help cut out diving, stop Jose whining, and generally make it a lot fairer.
Just my thoughts but love to hear your guys opinions!
Happy Christmas folks!

Believable8 Unbelievable3

16 Dec 2016 07:10:43
As long as it doesn't make to many interruptions during the game i'm for it. Also hopefully it will catch out all the players that dive and get them banned aswel.


{Ed001's Note - the decision in the CWC was terrible. It made a mockery of the match.}

16 Dec 2016 07:22:38
Leave football alone please. Its great as it is. I wouldn't even mind the goal line technology being scraped.


16 Dec 2016 07:41:22
Rekon they shoild just review all goals. The play stops anyways and there's a minute or 2 before play restarts that is ample time for a review to take place.


16 Dec 2016 07:59:57
When do you stop play to check the video though? If the ref thinks no penalty play on, I assume you'd wait until play is stopped before an official makes a decision? The next time the ball is dead could be when it's in the net at the other end. Could you imagine what would happen then?


16 Dec 2016 08:29:28
Im 100% with you, Irish Rover. Leave the perfect game alone. At what point will people be happy with the rules? Stop the tinkering!


16 Dec 2016 09:20:29
Maybe if each team were given 1or2 review chances ahalf. To go to an off field ref who has video assitance With the aability to overturn offside and red card decisions.

Similar to test cricket.

I suppose the cost if providing this to lower league matches would make it a non starter.
But football is awash with money and all people want at the end of the day is a fair result.


16 Dec 2016 11:08:17
The problem is entirely due to the incompetence of referees. Too many of them have been refereeing since they were school kids and, consequently, have never played the game, even in the schoolyard. As a result of that, they don't know a good tackle from a foul tackle.

The only criteria they use is, if the player goes down give the free kick and if the player stays on his feet, play on. That's one of the reasons players go down, because they know they will not get the free kick or penalty for a genuine foul unless they do. Rooney getting sent off against Portugal was a prime example. He was hacked at 3 or 4 times and because he stayed on his feet, he wasn't awarded the free kick until he eventually went down.

They have also refereed contact out of the game, so players will now throw themselves. To the ground at the slightest touch. If they were any good or knew anything. About the game and not just the laws, they would be able to recognise that the contact wad minimal and not enough to make the cheat go down and roll over 5 times.

That is also why we see so many poor goals from a defensive point of view these days. Because players are not allowed to defend or tackle properly, due to referee incompetence.

They should be made to attend regular meetings, in the company of 3 ex-professionals, watching endless videos of tackles, with the professionals telling them which tackles are fouls or not and why.

I understand players trying to cheat doesn't help matters but believe that the incompetence of referees had only encouraged them to do so.

Please don't anyone come on here and tell me English referees are the best in the world. I've seen many European games at Anfield, refereed by guys who just got on with the job and you hardly noticed them, as opposed to the preening attention seekers refereeing our games.


16 Dec 2016 10:47:18
Reviews could be brought in for penalties, as it doesn't affect tennis, cricket or even rugby for that matter and to a degree, it adds to the enjoyment! I love the goal line technology and hope that stays! As for lesser leagues not having the money, reviews are only on the show courts in tennis usually and don't hear many complaints from both players or spectators.


16 Dec 2016 12:32:22
I'm happy with penalties being left as they are, but I think offsides should be checked if a goal is scored. A linesman failing to spot an offside is my biggest issue with football.


16 Dec 2016 13:13:35
Well, and you wonder why rugby isn't as popular as football. Every sport has its ways of officiating and football has theirs. It's full of mistakes and human errors but that's what makes the game so fun and controversial. Plus I'm assuming a few jobs will be lost as well if we depend more on machines. Goal line technology made sense as it shouldn't be a judgment call, it's either in or it's not, but things like penalty decisions or offsides have more fine details so leave it up to the referee and linesman to decide as the match goes on. It works in certain games like rugby, NFL, tennis etc but it will take some flavour out of football. Most people that are calling for the rule are avid supporters of other sports that have the rule, otherwise die hard football fans are fine with it being how it is.


16 Dec 2016 15:32:40
nice to see so many passionate football fans! I understand when we start changing rules and other bits and pieces that it would soon get out of hand, and no one wants to see the game stop start with referees looking at any little detail.

Offside goals can be frustrating but as is said fairly often it evens itself out throughout the course of a season. Diving however is something that really gets to me and video refs could help cut this out but I also read somewhere about players getting cited for diving i. e being banned for subsequent games following a blatant dive as they would for a red card. surely this would be easy enough to implement into the game and be beneficial to all.


16 Dec 2016 16:05:58
We complain about referees but only because we have the benefit of replays, live we get as many decisions wrong as they do (probably more) .

We have the technology to do this, we just need FIFA to get the implementation right. Somebody above complained about goal line technology but that's a perfect example of technology being used correctly. It's accurate, fast, doesn't slow down play at all and prevents errors in a crucial area.

For me it can't come soon enough.


16 Dec 2016 16:34:41
Diving could be dealt with by retrospective action which could easily deter players.


{Ed025's Note - sounds good to me irish..

16 Dec 2016 17:36:21
The problem with what you said Irish is that a lot of things that do happen which should be dealt with retrospectively isn't.


16 Dec 2016 18:27:07
I agree irsh, that's exactly how you cut it out naturally without changing the rules and the flow of the game.


16 Dec 2016 21:55:38
If the video ref is brought in what the hell will we have left to argue about on Mondays?


17 Dec 2016 01:34:06
I tbink the linesman is an impossible job.
When you have to look exactly when the ball is played and then move your eyes to the line of attack, often a perfectly timed run is judged offside which is wrong but deemed as within human error tolerance.


17 Dec 2016 01:46:37
Hang on Irish Rover, why the hell would you remove goal line technology?! You don't keep tradition just for tradition's sake. When association football first formed, if they had access to goal-line technology then they would have used it. It does not impede the flow the game in any way.


17 Dec 2016 02:01:19
Apparently the view of the majority is that integrity in sport is secondary to newspaper column inches.
Offside decisions etc probably don't even out over a season. That's a myth of the statistically illiterate.
If it doesn't unduly disrupt the flow of the game, is affordable at the level it is applied, and makes for significantly better decisions, it would be unethical not to use it. It does not need to be 100% perfect, just consistent and better than what we have. This is a low bar.


16 Dec 2016 04:05:26
Hopefully Jordan Handsomeson could stay injury free throughout. I don't think anyone is as integral to the team as him. almost every other position we have a like to like replacement but for henderson role, no 1 could do what he did. Emre can, Gini, lallana, Grujic, Stewart. none is close to what he is.

Believable11 Unbelievable4

16 Dec 2016 06:32:09
We don't have have a like to like player for Mane. He will be a bigger miss than anyone. The turn he made for that second goal showed what pace brings to a team.


16 Dec 2016 09:52:49
Your latest obsession Harry? Mane!


16 Dec 2016 14:59:03
It used to be Carzola.


16 Dec 2016 16:11:43
I'm pretty sure Harry said Mane would be a waste of money when we were rumoured to be singing him in the summer.


16 Dec 2016 17:29:52
No Puzzled. But I wasn't really happy with the price tag and none were actually happy.
Always wanted winger to play ok the flanks and Mane was just one of it.


16 Dec 2016 17:30:24
My latest obsession is Hamilton Weslh.


15 Dec 2016 22:26:54
Hi eds, just reading the interview with Harry Wilson. He feels he is ready to make the cut. He is in double figures with his goals and lots of assists. Do you think he will be given a chance this season? It seems like we have 7 or 8 youth players that will make the grade. Almost like the mancs in the early to mid 90s. apart from the 3 lads on the bench last night who else is likely to get a chance in the short term?

Believable5 Unbelievable0

{Ed001's Note - it is likely he will get a chance, so long as he continues to perform well, while Mane is away.}

16 Dec 2016 10:35:10
We have a happy problem in trying to figure out how to bring through Ojo, Woodburn, Wilson. all looking like solid prospects.


16 Dec 2016 02:10:33
I think last night couldn't have gone better if it was scripted. Excellent attacking play, a clean sheet, no controversial moments and a GK performance that barely warrants a mention.

The one thing I'd like to highlight is Origi. My suspicion for a long time was that we were over-hyping a decent but un-exceptional player but my word is he making a case for himself right now. Origi has been presented an opportunity and he has grabbed it, wrestled it into submission and is now standing astride it with a huge grin on his face.

The question is what happens when everyone is fit? Does Origi return to the bench? That would be really harsh for a guy in great and sustained form. Who misses out then? Firmino? He's gone off the boil recently and, although he brings a lot to the team, he won't score as many as Origi. What do you guys think, should Origi keep his place and, if so who gets dropped?

Believable1 Unbelievable0

16 Dec 2016 04:23:51
Firmino is more productive up front than when pushed out wide. I hope we find a way to accommodate both him and Origi. I know our right and left forwards are not strictly wingers so i wonder how Divock would do playing to the right of a more central Firmino, especially as the majority of Origis goals seem to come from the right hand side of the box.


16 Dec 2016 05:42:51
I think with the freedom we play up top with this season and the diversity in the skillsets of our attacking players it allows a lot of rotation based on the opponent. Add that to the fact that at least one of our attackers is always injured I think this constant rotation gives everyone a bit of game time which means anyone can step in with no dramas.

Feels good having this squad depth! Find myself worrying this season a lot about who to leave out rather than who we can jam into positions to fill spots! Bit of tweaking next summer window and we are sweet. Exciting season boys.


16 Dec 2016 06:58:26
I would rather Ojo on the flanks than Firmino. You just can't pick players based on their name and not their attributes. Firmino on the flanks is a waste.


16 Dec 2016 08:26:29
Firmino is just too good to leave out though Sweet. I think a lot of the work he does goes unnoticed he makes lots of intelligent runs opening space for other players that's why Origi and Lallana get the space to score.


16 Dec 2016 08:56:50
I agree with you on that point Pip. He is my fav player, His first touch is only second to KDB in the league. Give him a a free role up front and he is the best by some distance. Tying him down to the flanks is killing his natural instinct. He is neither a winger nor a wide forward. He isn't blessed with pace something you need on the flanks. It's a shame though you have two good first teamsters in Origi and Firmino but no Winger other than Mane.
We need a Mane on the left.


16 Dec 2016 10:28:50
Me personally with Mane gone in January at couts back around that time why not switch the formation slightly and play firmino uptop with origi and couts on the 10 role behind them? Ed do you think Klopp would be thinking about this since surely he can't see firmino isn't as effective on the left as he is uptop.


{Ed001's Note - I doubt he will look to change the system too much, probably just ask the players to interchange more. Though they do interchange a lot anyway.}

16 Dec 2016 10:52:24
Kloppers

Where do you play Lallana then? Too many players through the middle makes it narrow and each gets into to others way. That is Y he is looking for a wide player / winger.


16 Dec 2016 10:48:46
For the record, If everyone was fit on Monday, I'd drop Firmino into the Can / Wiji position with Origi at No.9.


16 Dec 2016 13:31:48
Well for the next couple of months everyone won't be around for origi to miss out anyway so in the time being it's not a problem. Coutinho is injured until mid Jan I think. Mane leaves around the same time and comes back beginning of Feb. And sturridge is M. I. A, I don't even know what injury he has picked up, that's how weird the whole thing is for me, at one point I even thought of the conspiracy that maybe a similar situation that happened between Klopp and sahko occurred between sturridge and Klopp and that he's been left out until Jan where he seeks a move. Obviously that's not the case but it doesn't seem too far fetched. So the point is, origi will only be out of the team if he gets injured, which looks likely sometimes. I hope to god we don't lose him. When everyone is fit in current form, I'd say firmino might lose his place with mane and coutinho flanking origi but I'd assume a lot of rotation between them game after game.


16 Dec 2016 15:11:37
No worries as Ed said. The forward players interchange a lot during games so if it ain`t broke, don`t fix it as this system is the same one that has led us to being the best attack in the country with 50 goals scored in all competitions. We have had no problems scoring goals in couts` and Studge`s absence so a bit more tweaking may be needed when Mane is gone but nothing drastic, IMO.


 
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