Liverpool Banter Archive October 15 2013

15 Oct 2013 22:00:42
Well with the shift Gerrard put in there as the attacking midfielder, I think he's just proved that he could do that for at least 45 minutes in a Premier League game, every week. Sheer determination for the goal and so late on as well! He is so obviously wasted in a deep role.

YNWAdam

With his age, experience and quality gerrard is best suited to influence our matches from deep.you are clearly ignoring the fact that brendan tried him there in several games last season and he showed he isn't suited for the role

Agreed
everyone can see it.
gerrard needs to be played further forward
we have other dms
gerrard gets goals always has always will

15 Oct 2013 23:40:47
Red Lobster, The Guv and more importantly Roy Hodgson appear to agree with me mate. To put it simply, Gerrard has never been a natural centre mid and he doesn't have the energy, positional sense or defensive nature to play deep. It's obvious to everyone who knows anything about the tactical side of the game. He is an attacker, and a damn good one.

YNWAdam

Well adam clearly Rodgers doesn't agree with you and in all fairness that is the only game under hodgson for England that he has played there.

Gerrard was the best box to box central midfielder in his time before rafa moved him further forward.
He was energetic, strong in the tackle, his range of passing was immense and he could get forward as well as anyone in the game. Yes he needed Hamaan or someone else to sit when he did, but that's the same with all box to box midfielders.
More recently his shooting and vision for a delicate through ball sem to have diminished a little, but his long passing and organisation skills allow him to sit deeper where he tends to get more time on the ball.

16 Oct 2013 07:38:08
Gerrard to Push forward and Hendo to be the CM, perfect. or the fan fav Allen to play alongside Lucas.

"Red Lobster, The Guv and more importantly Roy Hodgson appear to agree with me mate."

Well yes, but if you want to play the game of whom agrees with whom then Brendan Rodgers appears to disagree. And Rodgers has, at the very least, been much more successful as Liverpool manager than Hodgson was.

Frank lampard still does I'm sure Stevie can

16 Oct 2013 08:32:30
It is well documented on this site that that is my biggest gripe with Rodgers. His persistence to play Gerrard out of position. Rodgers does indeed prefer to play Gerrard in the deeper roles, but surely the fact we are all hoping for players like Koke, Matic etc is proof its not working? Any fool can see we are getting over run in midfield due to the lack of discipline from Gerrard, and the lack of mobility from both him and Lucas. If you can honestly tell me you are happy with our midfield and don't want to sign any other players there, then I will accept your side of the debate. Our weakest link in the whole team is the Gerrard-Lucas partnership in the middle. Gerrard proved he has still got it last night. He pressed high up with no need to worry about being caught out in possession or out of position. He linked up well, found space, created chances and scored a goal. What more does he have to do to prove that's his more natural role? He can't defend, plain and simple. But going forward he is dangerous. I know Rodgers disagrees with me, but in my opinion that is why we've been so poor this season in terms of performance. We won't keep fluking 1-0's and weathering a second half onslaught. Gerrard needs to be pushed forward and replaced in the deep role by Hendo. Over on the teams page somebody said "who would play the line splitting pass". Good question, but Agger, Lucas, Henderson and Sakho have all proved they can play it forward and take opposition players out of the game. I respect that you all think Gerrard is better deeper, I just don't see it. He never has been, and never will be. As Dezy says, if Lampard can play further on still, why can't Gerrard? That sums up our problems to me though. When Lampard got older, Chelsea didn't make him change his position and shackle him. They made him an impact sub/occasional starter. What did he do? Scored 15 goals and maintained his match winning ability. Liverpool though get too sentimental, and sacrifice results to accomodate a player in a different position just because he cannot play in his natural one for 90 minutes every 7 days. Its wrong, simple as. Gerrard is an attacker. Rodgers needs to stop wasting him.

YNWAdam {Ed039's Note - Where in the side do you then accommodate Coutinho, Moses, Sturridge and Suarez, they are all better than Gerrard in the advanced role and Gerrard is better than anyone else playing deeper, surely that makes sense to name his line-up like that then?)

Well coutinho is better than gerrard in that position.

16 Oct 2013 10:01:17
Don't get me wrong, I think Coutinho will be world class one day, but I think his current ability is being over played a bit. He goes missing after 50/60 minutes near enough every game. Moses is a good player in a wider role, but he is not even close to to being a good playmaker/No.10. In our current 3-4-1-2, I'd play Gerrard and Coutinho in the hole behind SAS and make them compete/share game time. If nothing else Gerrard would make a hell of an impact sub. He is certainly by no stretch of the imagination our best deep midfielder. He can play a beautiful diagonal and is pretty solid in the tackle. He does not track runners though, cannot offer the energy required to press the opppsition all game, he is always caught ball watching, lacks discipline and positional sense. In terms of ability, he is on paper an excellent deep lying playmaker, but he lacks the tactical awareness. Rafa took half a season to spot that, and Gerrard never played central midfield under him again. At least when he was younger, his sheer power and energy made up for his bad positioning. I still believe Gerrard has world class ability. He's a match winner. However playing deeper, he costs us more than he brings to the team. Henderson and Lucas should be our first choice midfield pairing, hands down. They may not be able to hit a blinding route 1 pass, but they keep possesion better, and reclaim it much better too. I can't believe after last nights game and watching the second half of every gsme this season, that this is ecen a question. Gerrard in attack is class. Gerrard playing deeper is very average. He is not Pirlo. He will never be able to play the game without breaking a sweat because he is not good enough tactically.

YNWAdam

Adam you need to first know the attribute gerrard relies on this days then you would understand why rodgers and roy keep playing him deep.

Actually Gerrard was not further forward last night until Frank Lampard came on. During the match and According to the opta stats he was in the middle with Carrick from where he made the most interceptions of any England player (second was Baines). His pass success rate was 72 passes with an 85% success rate and he crafted more chances than any other England player with 6. He made 12 crosses only 1 less than Baines who was top crosser, but Stevie's success rate was 50% whilst Baines' success rate was 23%.
People tend to see what they want to see but Gerrard's role last night was pretty similar role to his at LFC and his occasional flurries forward were okay because Carrick had a very good game. Stevie has a great brain on him and is best employed to utilise that knowledge and great ability to switch the game with stupendous passes but that said I have to admit I was most impressed with his engine to keep going so long and then score that great goal at the end. A testament to the power of yoga and how it can truly prolong the life of great sportspeople in team sports.

16 Oct 2013 11:59:01
Jessie, do you not think he relies on his direct passes from deep because it's all he's capable of? Or because it's all he can do in that position? He is a better attacking midfielder than anybody else in the team. Just because he cannot do it for 90mins a week anymore does not mean he shouldn't be doing it at all. A lot of people seem to share this view including ex-players such as John Aldridge. Gerrard is a fish out of water in that deep position. Both goals vs Swansea, the goal against palace and the goal against Sunderland were all partially his fault. For Shelveys he dived in too quick and when Shelveys fluffed shot took him past Lucas it also eliminated Gerrard. For Michu's he didn't track Shelveys run from the half way line giving him a free knock down to Michu. For Sunderlands goal, he didn't close down the player who took the initial shot that led to the rebound and for Palaces goal he made no attempt to challenge the header at the front post despite being the closest player by at least 4/5 yards. Admittedly, other players made mistakes that also caused these goals, but Gerrard has been heavily involved now in 4 of the 5 goals we have conceded. He is not a defensive player and just because he's played a few good counter attacking balls from deep that have so far only resulted in 1 or 2 goals, it does not offset the bad. We have been awful in the second half because Gerrard is in a position where we ideally need soneone who can give 110% for 90 minutes. Allen and Hendo are the only players in our squad who can offer that. Gerrard is too influential to drop completely, but he needs more of a squad role. He should compete with Coutinho for the number 10 role because to be honest, Gerrard showed last night he is still the better player, he's just been chained to the half way line.

YNWAdam

16 Oct 2013 13:00:10
Reynard, whilst you are correct in saying Gerrard was still played as a midfielder, he was given more license to push forward than he has been all season for Liverpool. He was making runs through all game. He doesn't get allowed that freedom at Liverpool. He did indeed track back fairly well last night. He was still most effective when charging forward though. Imagine what he could do charging forward without having to track back so much? The thought of Suarez and Sturridge up front with a free roaming Gerrard behind them is mouthwatering. With Hendo and Lucas behind him, Gerrard could take his time dropping back. So yes, he was played in Midfield, but it was much more a 4-1-2-1-2 than a flat 4-4-2. Gerrard got forward a hell of a lot. All I'm saying is with how effective he was on the attack and in the final third is that he still has the ability to play as an attacker.

YNWAdam

Sounds to me, Adam that you are trying to shoehorn Gerrard's position to fit your argument as oppose to Gerrard position supporting your argument.

Funny how when he plays well in the CM position people argue he is a CAM and that their argument for him in that role is and always has been correct. He was CM last night, as he has been for LFC all season and he had a good game. End of.

16 Oct 2013 14:09:31
Gerrard or any Attack minded Midfielder would lvoe to push forward if you have 2 genius behind you, like Alonso and Mascherano.
I would have myself scored a dozen goals, If I need not track back or worry about my Back 4.

16 Oct 2013 14:53:24
NorthWestBest, I'm not shoe horning anything. Gerrard played as the attacking midfielder last night. When defending he dropped back but he pushed much further forward than he has all season. I was suprised at his energy. My post is merely stating that there is no need for him to be shackled as a defensive midfielder, when he has just proved he can still do the business going forward, and is still fit enough to do it. As he has been conserving himself so much its been hard to gauge how fit he is. Although last night was a much slower paced international against a team with nothing play for, I still feel he could do this job for Liverpool to some extent. Gerrard played as an attacking midfielder full stop. I don't care what your stats say because they only tell half the story. Anybody who watched the game could see he regularly cropped up out wide, ahead of both Sturridge and Rooney, and in between their defence and midfield. Just because he found the energy from somewhere to get back and defend a lot too, does not mean he didn't played as an advanced midfielder in a midfield two. What I'm saying is imagine him as the advanced midfielder in a 3? He would have less pressure to track back and could potentially play the full 90 every week, or at least every other week. To me it seems like everybody else is clinging to meaningless average position stats to try and justify where he played. He had a license to attack and if you are refusing to acknowledge that, then I'm not the one shoe horning mate. He is not a defensive midfielder. He showed that last night and for me was man of the match. Gerrard can still be 'Stevie G'. I think the main reason people are saying Gerrard is good in a deep role is because they feel he is immune to criticism and cannot take the rose tints off to give an unbiased view. I prefer to be balanced. Gerrard does a job there, but he does more damage than good. In attack though, he only damages the opppsition. You cannot just change a players position when they get old and expect it to work. I can think of only one recent example, Scholes. Lampard and Gerrard will both always be attacking midfielders, end of. Either playing deep is "shoehorning" a square peg into a round hole.

YNWAdam

All of a sudden opta stats isn't good enough anymore just to validate your point.you need to go watch Liverpool games again if you think gerrard doesn't go forward
He just had a great game in his usual position for club and country.would you you say baines didn't play lb because he played majority of the game as a winger

Hi guys, how about Stevie players 60-70 mins in his usual position and the replaces a tired Couthinio for the last 30? From what I have read over the last ten days people are saying Stevie should play further forward, we need Allen back in the team, Stevie should be an impact sub etc.
So going on the vibes from this thread.
Couthino tires at or around the 60/70 min mark. So my suggestion would be, sub Couthino for Joe Allen, and let Stevie roam free up top for the last 30-40 minutes.
I will admit that I have questioned his (legs) stamina, but I think he proved last night that if he takes it easy in the first half he has plenty left for the second half?
Just an idea guys :0)

I agree we need a proper defensive midfielder adam. But I guess my point is, that Gerrard isn't better in the attacking midfield role than Coutinho is. Not now, a few years ago he was, but not now.

Gerrard is certainly an interesting one, there is no denying the experience and leadership qualities that he brings to the side. However, if you look at it objectively, taking away the sentimentality of Gerrard being a club legend for a second, then Gerrard is probably the one that would make way for a specialised defensive midfielder.

Perhaps he should start to be phased out onto the bench like Lampard has been at Chelsea.

Gerrard plays as a central midfielder for both Liverpool and England. Gerrard performed his defensive responsibilities well, thanks for the Opta facts. He also did well when he pushed forward. He does need a bit of freedom but he's not so indisciplined and reckless in position that he should be played as a squad player.

I have to disagree with you again on this one Adam.

Gerrard didn't do himself any injustice with his well earned goal, great bit of individualism (see that Jack wilshere, see that!? :)

I don't see a problem with letting capt'in fantastic going in the attacking role here and there, he doesn't need to do that job in the team as it's blended currently. I think Rodgers has been conservative to a point with Gerrard but then his ethos is fast and small technical players. Suarez who was already here but he's personally picked Sturridge, Coutinho and Moses for the task which emphasises my point. But Gerrard would no doubt still do a job if called on, as he showed he can the other night, in between Andros Townsend's shots. :)

15 Oct 2013 21:45:17
Look what happens when Stevie is played further forward for a brief spell. get in my son!
YNWA JFT96

15 Oct 2013 20:37:30
hey guys

with carrick sitting. iv seen more attacking play from gerrard than all this yr combined. I still think he has it all to continue playing more forward. so I hope brendan just puts lucas an hendo and gerrard at the top of the midfield. because I don't think he needs to play so deep in his career yet.

Carrick is great at doing that at United, he did it well for Tottemnham back in the day as well. Patient as a Geordie saint, rarely has a crack on goal because he sits so deep.

Gerrard was able to break forward and show his ability hasn't left him. Frank was on the pitch at the time as well I believe, so there's one for the conspiracy that Gerrard and Lampard can't play together, they can, just need Carrick in between them, at least that night. :)

15 Oct 2013 18:27:36
Evening eds and reds
Quetion for eds or anyone who knows! what's the situation with Glenn Johnson and a new contract? As I understand it he's in the last two years of his current deal and there where murmers a few weeks ago that he may not sign? that's all I know, anyone?

I think Ayre just recently said that business like that is done in the summer, but I maybe wrong. He was talking about Suarez's contract I think, but he did mention that every player is treated the same, so it might be worth searching what Ayre said about Suarez being offered a new contract.