Liverpool Banter Archive November 13 2013

13 Nov 2013 21:44:55
Ed's 2, how are you doing?

I have a question for you --

Did you ever wanted to be a professional footballer?

If yes, did you play striker or defender or mid-fielder?

{Ed002's Note - I am far too intelligent to have become a soccer player. Aprit.}

I played as defensive midfield and was always good at marking, tracking, and running and excellent stamina. Think of kuyt's + essien strength.

I lacked anything that would make me a striker like passing, shooting, vision, speed, crossing.

I scored a Stevie G special from half way in indoor soccer once, and coached my son's under 7 team last year to a top 4 finish - that is why I think I know better than Rodgers ;)

Ok ED002 not a football player but may be manager or a coach? {Ed002's Note - It is a tedious occupation that would never interest me.}

OK if you were never a player or manager or even a coach! Are you Gary Megson

13 Nov 2013 21:36:52
I no its a long shot but would Di Maria be a possibility in January or would it have to be due to suarez leaving? Is their a possible Liverpool will just take a chance and go for the league with a major signing or two? {Ed002's Note - Liverpool has shown no interest. I would not hold your breath.}

13 Nov 2013 13:01:43
Lucas Leiva is the top tackler in the Premier League. Although Aaron Ramsey has made 53 successful tackles to Lucas's 50, Lucas has done so in 2 less games. He averages 5.6 tackles a game whereas second placed Ramsey averages 4.8 per game. Lucas is pivotal to protecting our back four. If it were not for his injury a couple of years back destroying his pace and seemingly curtialing his agresion slightly, he'd be the best in the world at the holding role, of that I have no doubt. He also registered a 97% pass completion rate against Fulham and has 92% overall for the season. He plays a lot of his passes forward though, so don't be fooled into thinking he is just a preservative player.

Of course stats don't tell the whole story and his mobility and stamina can sometimes be an issue as the game wears on, but against Fulham with the midifeld running split between 4 players, it seemed to preserve and protect not only Lucas, but Gerrard and allowed them to both perform for longer. Chelsea won the Premier League in 2010 playing 4 midfielders in a narrow Diamond. In my opinion, that Ancelotti side is the best to ever win the Premier league (beter than the Invincibles purely because there were less bore draws). Their options were: Essien/Mikel, Lampard/Ballack, Malouda/Zhirkov, Cole/Deco. We have Lucas, Henderson/Allen, Gerrard, Coutinho/Alberto. It is therefore clear that we need a back up to Lucas and another goalscoring midfielder to rotate with Gerrard. This midfield works because it provides you with every key attribute you need from a midfield. Gerrards passing range, Hendersons energy, Lucas's composure and Coutinho's creativity. We just need 1 or 2 of them to start adding regular goals. This formation would no doubt prolong Gerrards career by reducing his running. I think when Suso returns he will be ready to compete with Gerrard in the midfield. But we need another player who will just sit deep, play the ball out from the back and spoil the oppositions attacks. Lucas is proof you don't need to be that mobile or fast to do it, and I'd love Alonso to come in and provide some short term competition/experience. He might not be as agressive as Lucas, but he has a certain elegance/grace to the way he just nicks the ball off opposition players. He played at the base of Spains midfield for years before Busquets, and Spain are the best team in recent History. I really hope Macca is right and we haven't given up on him. He would be the best signing we could possibly make in January. If we are to persist with 2 strikers though, we cannot rely on just Aspas for back up. Borini will be back next season, but there is no guarantees he will come back a success. Our front two tend to be very versatile though and play more as free role forwards than fixed strikers. So for that reason, don't be suprised if Ibe, Moses or Sterling are used as cover for SAS, with Ibe perhaps suiting the role slightly better. Our 4-0 demolition of Fulham was not only the best result of the season, but the best performance of the season. Its the first time we have kept a clean sheet and scored more than once in the same match. If Rodgers tries to go back to the 3-5-2 after that, I will be very dissapointed. It is his decision though, and I will trust him and support whatever he does (within reason of course!).

I really think we can challenge for the title this season. They say you can't tell until the first 10 games, well its been 11 games and we are still one of the teams to beat in the league. Suarez just makes me feel even more silly every week. I wanted him sold for good reason, but he is a different player this season. Diving gone, silly bookings gone, conversion rate through the roof, greed still there a little etc. Overall though, what an improvement. If he continues this rate of 8 goals in 6 games, he will finish the season of 44 goals in 33 games. Surely not?

YNWAdam

13 Nov 2013 14:47:54
Think it will be either city or chelsea? Once spurs gel they will be scary with their talent and would be like a runaway train! Arsenal will always be their or their abouts? Utd will struggle (no dig) this term?

I think its just a bit too soon to be talking about challenging for the title. If we are in the same position or atleast in and around the same position after those crucial games during the christmas period, maybe there is a chance for us to finish top 4. I am not a pessimistic fan but just a reasonable one. The teams like Chelsea and City who are having a hard time right now and even Spurs have the cash to get a top drawer during Jan to change their course for the season. I'm not saying that we won't but I don't think we could get as good a players as they could get, speaking comparitively. Support is all we can do right now and its been really a proud start for us but maybe after january, after looking at the table then, we could tell where we might finish

Adam I don't think you really understand the holding role.

Lucas it too good at his job he needs to be far better at scoring goals & being an occasional attacking threat in the way of an essien or Carrick or arteta or lampard or gerrard. He needs another string to his bow or face being replaced by I think Alberto as soon as he's bulked up & up to speed

To replace Lucas with Alberto is madness, their playing style and position is totally different.
Alberto is a forward player who can score and assist goals, Lucas is a tackler who disrupts play and distributes the ball quickly.
Just because he doesn't score doesn't mean he could be replaced, hardly any of our midfield score at the moment so he is the last one who needs to address that.
Once Coutinho and Henderson find the net on a more regular basis, we will appreciate how much of the dirty work Lucas does and be grateful he is disciplined enough to sit deep.
Last point -
J-L don't criticise someone who has spent a lot of time on a detailed post with a one line put down. At least explain to the poster why you disagree rathet than just dismissing their point out of hand.

You've got to give credit to Ramsey being the top tackler and top midfield goalscorer considering the leg break he had.

I've explained on here before which stats you should look out for in DMs but was shot down by a number of people. The most important factors for a defensive midfielder are tackle success % and dribbles past. The thing people are confused by is that Lucas has the highest number of tackles made in the world in the last 3 or 4 seasons (or thereabouts). The problem is he may make a lot of tackles but also doesn't complete a lot as well. This is why he's getting so many bookings. He also is dribbled past a lot due to being out of position and therefore is chasing back to win the ball and fouling again. You don't need to be fast to be a DM nor do you really need to be outrageously fit (obviously you need to be pro footballer fitness). If your awareness of space and positioning is top class you don't need to be running about the place wasting energy as you will be in the correct position from the start, therefore able to make necessary tackles and interceptions.

If you look through our club at u21 & 18 levels where it's far more obvious what we're trying to do as a club because players aren't so ridged & players can be bought in cheap you'll see that in the u18s chirivella plays DM not at all like Lucas & 21s similar with roddan & or rossiter the latter scored in the last league game who are again not like Lucas for me Lucas is currently a stop gap

13 Nov 2013 18:36:04
Actually that is absolutely not true fanatic viewer, your post shows a clear lack of understanding of football, trying to replace probably one of Europe's top 5 DEFENSIVE midfielders with a coutinho like player. Shocking.

Lucas has 50 out of 64 successful tackles (78%)
He has 91% passing success rate.
Out of 580 passes this season 105 were in the attacking 3rd. With 87% success rate.
And the most impressive stat for me is how many aerial duels he wins, won 21 out of 29 so far this season (72%)

With 26 interceptions and 21 clearnces (2nd highest in Europe in 9 league games)

Lucas Leiva is brilliant and real knowledgeable fans appreciate your brilliant hard work. Unsung hero. Stop gap? LOL, sure. If you think roddan will ever even reach 1% of Lucas level give your head a wobble. U-21 football at it's best is 10% of the intensity of the PL at it's worst. Also Roddan is 21 soon and has scored 1 goal in 4 years of U-21 football. I'm sure Lucas has 4-5 goals for us so your example was the worst you could have picked. tata

Lucas is mediocre, need a top DM in jan

Lucas mediocre? Nope he is not. He is an important player in our squad.

Put it this way lucas is class very good at his job but against certain teams we need another player to do the same job but with different quality's e.g fast and strong more mobile like this is why you need a squad competition for places and quality true out bla bla bla need options people not replacements

Thanks for the stats Adam - I was thinking his pass accuracy was looking good in games, your figures back that up.

Red Vinny - no we don't ;)

'Chirivella plays nothing at all like Lucas & similar with roddan & Rossiter'. The game isn't played on paper through statistics & you'll see I earlier said Lucas was 'too good at his job' with Alberto s size & him previously saying alonso is a player he admires & hil infact playing this position in at least his first.
friendly maybe it's the role he's being prepared for & I'll ask again do any of the other big successful clubs have a player as good as Lucas playing DM? No. Highlighting maybe there's no need for someone as completely defensive as him

All of the more successful clubs have a better DM than Lucas. For example: Barca - Busquets, Bayern - Martinez, Dortmund - Bender, R. Madrid - Khedira, Roma - De Rossi, Man City - Fernandinho, Manchester United - Fellaini. The list could go on for a while {Ed002's Note - Taking the two local clubs from Manchester, how much success have they had with Fellaini and Fernandinho so far? You constant pitiful moaning about Lucas is becoming laughable.}

I think Lucas is a fantastic player although I do think we need another good dm aswell. Not to replace Lucas but more so to play along side him. Re watching the arsenal game I think and other games against top things I feel we would be a lot better off if we had Lucas playing along side a player such as Alonso not as defensive as Lucas but will sit and play the passes. I personally feel that Allen should be given a chance in the bigger games in a midfield 3 of Lucas Allen and Gerrard with coutinho in behind sas.then against teams like Fulham we can bring in Henderson or even Moses so we have slightly more attacking threat even though again I think Allen proved last season and pre season he can successfully play a more attacking role well.

Summary: Allen for me could be a big player for the club when fully fit again

Ed002, I took the Manchester clubs as they have been successful recently. There was me thinking this was a banter site and everyone could have their opinion. According to you however, any criticism of any player is not acceptable. {Ed002's Note - It is not criticism of a player - you are running a sustained campaign against Lucas. I have said before that the Liverpool supporters are the worst of any for putting down their own players but most of that is down to fickleness - two weeks ago Gerrard was a washed up old man, then a week later he has his superpowers back. Few have been like you where every single post you have made since October 1 has been against Lucas. It truly is pitiful.}

At least fickle is something I have not been.

I am not a fan of stats, as they don't tell the whole picture, but can still point toward a rational reason for an opinion.

The holding role is not simply about tackling %, aerial battles won. It's about breaking down the play/slowing the tempo, to allow your team to regain formation. Sometimes what's required is to make the player pass backwards or across the field, rather than make the tackle. miss the tackle and he's through in a possible 2 on 3.

He'll often try and press the pass to the person considered a weak player. I.E if Playing UTD for example. Lucas would want to stop Rooney moving forward and jockey him, so he doesn't have a shot on goal, and his only option is to pass to an inexperienced Zaha, who Liverpool would prefer on the ball, as he's more likely to give it away, be tackled by Enrique/Gerrard coming back.

Lucas is also there as the start of a Liverpool attack from the defense or goal kick. He picks the ball up deep, and looks to play a pass usually to Johnson or Enrique then Enrique, widening the midfield gaps. He'll receive the ball gap, once that space has been created, he'll pass to coutinho, Gerrard, or Hendo. As a deep lying playmaker like this, you have to be confident and strong on the ball. Lucas is BRILLIANT at this.

I could go on. but I feel I;ve already written an essay.There's so much more to a DM than just tackling.

As I feel some one else pointed out. Watch Makele and the way he simply dictated Chelsea games. Unsung hero

14 Nov 2013 16:26:20
J-L, you could always argue that the top clubs you mentioned have better defenders than us, better midfielders and arguably better strikers.
We are not in the bracket of teams you mentioned, therefore it is foolish to suggest we should have similar players quality wise.
Also, I'd take Lucas over Fellani and Fernandinho any day of the week,
If you look at the teams we are actually competing with, Lucas is head and shoulders above them,
If you expect us to have a DM the quality of Busquets, then your plain crazy! We are not at the top., so will obviously not have the top top players.

Everything is based on systems of play the manager wants. Lucas is BRILLIANT at what the manager asks him to do which is good enough for me. Comparing him to other player is useless because the systems in which these players play are different. Busquets, medel or any other might not flourish in our system because maybe their abilities don`t fit. Also, the DM position requires intelligence, sense of anticipation, decent vision, awareness of danger, and when, if, and where to make a tackle. Stats will NEVER show you these criteria that IMO, Lucas possesses. Lucas plays with the club on his sleeve and puts his heart out everytime he goes into a tackle even if it has caused him a horrific injury in the past. Can the haters just support him and encourage him instead of slating and berating every chance they get? Jeez, is that too much to ask?

For me Lucas is in the top three best DM there is right now. And if you think because another DM costs £25m he is better then your messed up.