Liverpool Banter Archive November 10 2015

 

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10 Nov 2015 20:04:31
Question for the Eds, I remember Liverpool being linked with dele alli, were there reasons why Liverpool didn't push through a deal?

Tried search function,

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{Ed002's Note - No, there weren't specific reasons. Clubs look at many players - sometimes the make offers, some times they move. There was an offer and he moved to Spurs. Done.}

11 Nov 2015 08:34:02
Coutinho, Lallana, Firmino, Texiera, Brannagan. To many attacking midfielders. And only Lucas and Rossiter are defensive midfielders. We don't need any more unless we sell a couple.

What are the eds's thoughts on Tiote of newcastle? Would you think he could do well at Liverpool, or do you not rate him? Thanks.

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{Ed001's Note - not even close to good enough, he struggles to get in the Newcastle team. A very average player who is not really Premier League level at all 90% of the time, then has a good game and gets overhyped.}

11 Nov 2015 10:39:21
Thanks for the reply. Never seen him enough to judge. My Geordie mate used to bang on about him. Do you think we need more cover for Lucas?

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{Ed001's Note - we do need someone there, but I would personally like to see Rossiter and Chirivella given the chance to be that cover, rather than buying someone.}

11 Nov 2015 12:07:24
Liverpool opted for James Milner instead.

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11 Nov 2015 12:07:46
What do you think of Jordan Williams?

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10 Nov 2015 20:49:08
Just one for all the readers, where do you feel we should strengthen during the next couple of windows although keeping in mind not much will happen in Jan. for me gk is the first place that should be addressed. Followed by centre forward if sturridge is unable to find consistent fitness between now and may.

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10 Nov 2015 21:10:06
We have quite a bloated squad and a percentage of them will be deemed surplus at some point this season. Who that will be is anyones guess, but I would expect more to leave than to come in.

I think we'll wait until the summer before any come in, Ed002 has stated that we need to make up funds and selling players will most likely be a priority.
However, once selling is done I would imagine we'll see 2 maybe 3 new faces come in. I would think it will be a goal keeper, a left back and perhaps a striker if we were to sell one.

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10 Nov 2015 21:38:19
A GK or give Bogdan a chance from now til January to see if he can step up. A winger is also a must.

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10 Nov 2015 22:46:11
We should strengthen everywhere. What we can afford I don't know. We need good finishers and also people who can pass and cross the ball well and take corners and free kicks. In short few more Gerrads.

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10 Nov 2015 22:49:56
I'm ready to let go of this average squad and let Klopp build a new European Machine.

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10 Nov 2015 23:07:02
Forgot to put on it that the question is open to the eds also if want to get their 2 cents worth.

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{Ed002's Note - I think it a different question - who could arrive and provide a real plus to the squad.}

10 Nov 2015 23:27:23
Someone to play beside Lucas.
Someone to play beside Sakho.

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11 Nov 2015 01:23:58
A goalkeeper and a really good quality wide forward, in the Sanchez mould. Obviously there's not many out there that would be realistic but there is plenty of gks that would be an upgrade on migs.
But I think just add hendo to our current first 11 and we will be instantly better, add to that flannigan (if he comes back at the level he left off in) and sturridge (if he comes back ever) and IMO we have 3 first teamers way better than most new signings we could possibly get. Further to that I think Ibe will gradually improve all season. He has almost unlimited potential in my eyes.

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11 Nov 2015 01:43:26
A dominant CM and a lethal striker would do it for me.

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11 Nov 2015 01:44:58
If a goalkeeper was purchased, in January or summer, who would most likely leave, bogdan or migs?

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11 Nov 2015 08:36:50
Mignolet obviously.

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11 Nov 2015 09:15:59
GK is first on my list, winger is next need someone with more pace to go along side Ibe then a CB to partner Sako.

Not likley in Jan but crossing fingers we make some sales in Jan.

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11 Nov 2015 09:16:23
Bogdan deserves a go IMO.

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11 Nov 2015 12:09:16
Someone to play beside Lucas? Like Jordan Henderson?
Someone to play beside Sakho? Maybe someone to play beside Skrtel first since Sakho is out for 3 months?

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10 Nov 2015 20:36:36
I just heard a discussion on the radio about non league footballers who became Pl players like Vardy.

They talked there about statistics of Academy players going on to play professionally and they said 96% of those playing in the academy at 16 don't play football at 18 and only 2% of those left (so 2 in every 10,000 of those there at 16 ) play football professionally at 21 (at any level).

I think they got it wrong with the second number - it has to be higher than one in 10,000 especially with big clubs who can attract more talented youngsters and have more to choose from but no doubt very very small minority of academy players become professional players let alone play for a PL club.

For the attention of all those moaning here about us not promoting kids from the academy to the senior team.

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10 Nov 2015 22:41:23
There is a disconnect between the ethos of developing young players and the instant success craved by some supporters and club administrators.

It takes a brave CEO to stick to their guns and develop young players. It's one of the reasons why we could do with a "director of football". Managers find it hard to take a risk on youth with their job on the line. DoF's don't have quite the same pressure.

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10 Nov 2015 22:41:40
Sorry mate, your maths is wrong. The result is 8 in every 10000 if these stats are true.

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10 Nov 2015 23:07:24
Young English players need to leave England if they want proper development and better chances. If there passion or aim is money then, they can risk wasting their career here if that's their main objective, which I know a lot of them are. Which is why a lot of them aren't good enough to make the steps up, not hard working enough or the wrong attitudes. English football is light years away from the rest of Europe because the rest of Europe has established a more global apparoach whereas our coaches and players only stay in England. Which is why we are so behind. Traditional football is dead, and there's more tactics and skill involved in football now, which doesn't exist in abundance in England at early stages. A 16 year old Spanish kid threats played football all his life is almost always better than an English kid that's played football all his life.

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11 Nov 2015 00:55:04
I know either personally or friends of friends through locality and work a number of people that were on the books for varying clubs from an early age; what has surprised me is the number that didn't make it first time and either decided on another career or just ended up satisfied with playing semi pro.

One particular friends friend was at Coventry a couple of years ago and basically couldn't motivate himself to get himself a contract with a lower level team (despite offers) and now plays on a Saturday for £50 per week.

I can imagine being on the books for 10 years since the age of 8 can be a huge disappointment for someone to be let go and know your not going to make it.

Also another friend was on the books - played with a keeper that was amazing (in their eyes) and that keeper has done little in his career - 2nd or 3rd choice most weeks.

Coaching would improve things but I think it needs to go lower than that - back in my day we would play on full size pitches and goals even if we was under 14 - no training on holding players off / sheilding the ball and anyone who can gather 11 kids together can manage a team - not knocking anyone but assistance / support should be assisted from local clubs (paid for by the grass roots funds) - it would also help with players networking etc.

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11 Nov 2015 01:49:47
Maybe they meant 2% of the first lot, meaning 96% of under 16s don't play at under 18s and two percent of them make it to pro, meaning, obvisouly, 2 in 100 make it.
Also the statistic might not include players leaving or arriving, so 96% don't play under 18s for THAT specific club.
The figures could be very misleading, but 2 In a hundred academy players make it sounds more realistic. Again it could include trials and stuff.

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11 Nov 2015 10:05:27
The figures are easily manipulated, what constitutes some 1 at an academy, A player having a trial, being there for a certain amount of months as fencey says players move clubs during youth levels all the time Sterling being an example and Jordan Ibe.
This is just press hysteria creating an issue out of manipulated stats.
There's also a vast difference in not making it in the UK as a footballer and other countries.

I wouldn't worry about those stats being thrown out, it's like almost every job, market atm, you apply for 1 role and realise you've got to compete against 120 other candidates for it.

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10 Nov 2015 19:02:54
Eds, can any of you shed any light as to why Ilori can't get a look in at villa, even for the reserves? I can't grasp why so many Liverpool fans were so keen on us keeping him when he can't seem to get a game anywhere? It's got to be one of 3 things surely:

1. I'm not seeing something others are
2. He simply isn't that good
3. There must be something behaviour/attitude wise keeping him out?

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{Ed001's Note - or it could just be that we should never have sent him out on loan to a team struggling against relegation?}

10 Nov 2015 19:16:53
Fair enough, but that still wouldn't explain him not getting a game even for their 2nd string?

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{Ed001's Note - seriously? It does if he is injured or his loan contract does not allow for reserve matches. This is a pointless over done discussion that has been repeated 10 times a day on this site for years now. Loans are a mistake in most cases, we have just turned messing up loan moves into an art form.}

10 Nov 2015 19:20:22
Is he injured I don't know? And he played for the reserve team in Sept so that takes out any form of agreement u mention?

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10 Nov 2015 21:55:02
He isn't ready yet, will take time to adapt to this league which aston villa cannot afford, and to an extent we can't neither. Just imagine the negativity he is going to receive say after a couple bad games.
Its the same with most youngsters these days (unless they are extremely talented), they only feature if its the last resort.

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10 Nov 2015 22:24:08
I feel he and Sahko could forge a great partnership for the future. Apparently the option to buy villa have means they have to pay 6-9 million in a transfer fee if they want to sign him.

I'm hoping they don't.

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10 Nov 2015 23:20:53
Some of the above is nonsense, gomez is no better than him, he made a number of mistakes before he got injured and i don't remember to many people writing him off. Ilori just needs someone to believe in him and give him a chance to just play football. We could save ourselves a big fee for an other unknown quantity or simply take him back from loan and seeing what he can do.

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11 Nov 2015 01:52:57
He's obvisouly got some sort of reputation, but 9/10 of you have probably never seen him play including me. Maybe at the euros but that was all against kids, which is nothing to the physicality of the premier league. I wonder if that stat about him beating Ronaldos record when he was like 16 hadn't have been true if people would still be so fixated.
Not knocking him at all, because like I've said I've never seen him play, but saying he and sakho would make a good partnership is a stretch far when he was played no premier league football.

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11 Nov 2015 03:12:26
The nonsense coming out of posters regarding a player like Ilori who they have never seen play for the club yet are ready to criticisize for not being good enuff just because the manager who signed him couldn't be arsed about his or any of our youth's careers, is mind blowing.

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11 Nov 2015 10:22:20
Like I said in the original post, maybe I'm not seeing something other people clearly can! Perhaps a case of a poor choice of loan move then as someone above quite rightly mentioned, Villa can't afford him the time to develop at present.

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11 Nov 2015 12:12:48
Well i have a theory, Aston villa has an option to buy him for a fee between 6-9 million £, the fee will be decided by the amount of games he plays! So maybe Aston Villa are trying to save up to 3 million £ by almost never playing him because we can't negotiate deals for tofiee or that we actually didn't give a toss about his future so it didn't matter for the club if he never played or we lost 3 million by him never playing.

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10 Nov 2015 17:59:59
With Monk's job apparently precarious can anyone see Rodgers returning as the next manager of Swansea?

Seems plausible to me had a good relationship with Jenkins and from what I have heard still has.

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10 Nov 2015 20:02:11
Maybe, but if Swansea are smart they will let Monk have Ten years and support him. He can learn so much and because he went practically straight from player to manager, for me is a huge positive as he can relate to the players in a way others can't. Because he's played in the same era.

Rodgers is not our concern anymore. Is he still in spain eds? Ironic. :)

Ynwa justice for the 96.

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10 Nov 2015 22:20:25
I've spoken to a lot of Swansea fans and they've said that they'd be happy to have Rodgers back. I think you can't look to the past for the future.

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10 Nov 2015 22:47:09
If monk is sacked by swansea it will highlight everything wrong with english football.

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11 Nov 2015 00:12:11
Swansea are going through a bad patch. Monk did a good job i thought at the start of this season and has a lot to learn they should give him a few years at least i think!

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11 Nov 2015 03:14:18
Or maybe he's been found out.

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11 Nov 2015 06:30:51
Nobody in Swansea wants BR back! There are no calls for Monk to go. All media pressure.

I live in Swansea and see nothing but support for Monk right now!

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10 Nov 2015 17:47:32
If villa do see Ilori as not required. Could the club ask for the loan to be terminated?

I believe Klopp did try and sign Ilori so knows the player. With Sahko injured for 6-8 weeks. Could you see this happening as Klopp would get to see one of the clubs players earlier than expected and possibly force his way into the team.

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{Ed002's Note - AV has an option to buy and a new manager. Liverpool could offer to buy that back. But why?}

10 Nov 2015 17:28:46
Ed out of our injuries who currently stands the best chance of returning after the international break as far as you are aware? Cheers mate.

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{Ed002's Note - Ibe, Rossiter, Toure and Henderson are all listed as being available. Sturridge remains a maybe.}

10 Nov 2015 20:49:11
Cheers mate, let's hope they make it. Think we've really missed Hendo's energy tbh.

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10 Nov 2015 21:32:12
Does anybody know the nature of Sturridge's injury? I saw something a couple of weeks back about a clash of knees and I read something about him being prone to certain types of injury because of the massive forces at work when he starts to run and I can also appreciate that the club aren't likely to go blabbing about injuries but it seems like a fair amount of time out for an apparently 'small' knock.

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10 Nov 2015 16:27:12
In seven weeks' time we will get some idea of what Jurgen's plans are. We hear often enough that Liverpool will have to sell in order to buy. Unfotunately there is no parity between what the club will receive from selling and they have to pay for new players. There is also the added problem that several players will be leaving and Liverpool not receiving a fee. Mignolet and Skrtel are joining Rugby Union clubs - Mignolet for his excellent kicks into touch from defence and Skrtel for the fact that he has never been known to give a forward pass! There are also enquiries from Rugby League for some of the players who concede the ball to the opposition before the 6th tackle! At the moment Jurgen is having to work with players that he inherited with the added problem of losing Ings, Gomez, Sturridge and Sakho. There is always a lot of comment about the weak defence but we have to remember that the defence don't (necessarily) win matches although they can prevent defeat. What wins matches is goals and that is ridiculously poor at the moment. With the strikers not being very successful at present the midfield should take more responsibility. For some reason there seem to be too many who are afraid to attempt a shot at goal. Coutinho is the only one who shoots at goal and although most of his attempts go high and wide I still believe that when things go his way he will score a lot more goals. There are players who get good write-ups every week but if they are not supplying goals others should be given a chance. In 18 matches Liverpool have scored ONE goal on 13 occasions. This has to change. In spite of the lowly position Liverpool are still only seven points behind the Champions' League places and with some good form this is not insurmountable -time will tell.

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10 Nov 2015 15:51:47
I know this isn't Liverpool related, but I just read about it and it is something that concerns me across all sports.

The US government has recently passed law that players under 10 years of age are not allowed to head the ball. Ever. Not in practice, not in game.

11-13 has a restricted amount of headers per day. I don't know how that will apply to in game.

14+ is the same.

I know we've seen similar changes in Little League baseball, where there is a pitch limitation to protect arms. I think that is a good change. But this header change just seems strange to me.

It seems that all sports are going out of their way to make safety a priority, but is this not just the nature of the game? I mean, how can a player be expected to develop if he/she can't use their head till a teenager? I don't imagine young players do headers that often anyways but still.

Just curious for the eds opinion on this. Do you think this could be something we see across the world eventually? And do you think it is something that needs addressing?

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{Ed002's Note - It would not be a surprise to see something happen - there has been occasional pressure.}

10 Nov 2015 16:00:47
Are they trying to use that as an excuse for the low IQ levels of players then? Lol
Headers can't be any worse than what young rugby players put themselves through.
Shall young darts players stand behind safety glass when the other player is throwing the darts?

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10 Nov 2015 17:38:41
It won't matter if the FA follow suit as most home grown players won't ply their trade at a level that counts. English players on the whole are not as good as their European and world counterparts due to the lack of training and General lifestyle.

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10 Nov 2015 18:30:35
Jeff Astel RIP.

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10 Nov 2015 19:55:32
Players in leagues are compensated more than enough. for the slight brain damage they receive nowadays, the balls are completely different from Astel's day. This is probably just the American FA covering itself after the shambolic NFL brain damage case, where the nfl hid results of brain damage, to players who didn't expect to have any repercussions from throwing themselves head first 40mph combined speed into each other.

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10 Nov 2015 22:13:29
From what I read it was in response to a lawsuit that essentially left the US soccer association liable. They in turn to avoid further litigation have changed the rules. There were a few towns her in New Jersey that already started this earlier this year.

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10 Nov 2015 22:22:11
Actually on reflection, banning headers will force the players to play less long ball football and have them use technical skills more.

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11 Nov 2015 00:07:47
There'd be no point in walls at free kicks or corners really, short corners are tone of the worst idea football ever came up with, and how could you risk standing in front of a ball being pelted at 70+ mph?

If we're only talking at youth level banning it's going to be even easier for striker like benteke to score headers vs young centreback who've never learnt to position themselves or head properly.

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10 Nov 2015 15:26:43
Hi eds, if it was up to you, who would you get rid of in the first team? Thanks.

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{Ed002's Note - Enrique as he is adding little value any longer and Sinclair as he doesn't know what is good for him.}

10 Nov 2015 15:54:36
Brad Smith too as he is in a contract dispute with LFC and hasn't kicked a ball for over a year.

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10 Nov 2015 16:29:50
Although he is away on loan. Balotelli has to be first name on any list!

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10 Nov 2015 17:57:56
Good question

I would say the below.

Balotelli.
Enrique.
Toure (at end of season, and have Ilori as fourth choice) .
Sinclair (if contract dispute not resolved) .

Possibly Alberto but I hear he's been doing well on loan so possibly give him pre season to see.

Allen (as he simply won't get game time and we have youngsters who could accommodate his place on the bench) .

However I can't se the above raising that much in fees for the club.

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10 Nov 2015 22:48:12
How did our squad end up in such a mess.

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10 Nov 2015 23:05:30
In this precise order:

Joe Allen
J. Allen
Joe A.

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10 Nov 2015 23:27:30
Oh come on mate the joe allen bashing is a bit silly.

He's clearly not good enough and didn't get to choose his price tag but its not like we've ever had concerns over his attitude like several of the players in the squad, and i can't really remember him making huge mistakes that let the team down, unlike mignolet, he just generally isn't good enough. Same goes for toure but i feel he is better than what everyone makes out.

Id sooner see players like balotelli and enrique leave than allen.

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11 Nov 2015 11:58:26
AG mate, Brad Smith has already left the club, he is around europe trying to find himself a new club, he was at a trial at Rosenborg the norwegian champions a couple of weeks ago, don't know how it went for him though. Will find out and share.

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10 Nov 2015 13:52:04
Hi guys, I went to an field for the first time in a few years on Sunday. Living down south now with two small kids has clipped my wings.

The crowd were so quiet the Palace fans dominated and I feel Klopp has a point when he says he felt alone.

We need to vocally back our team. Chanting should not be for away games (I was at the game at Chavski and we were great) .

What are your thoughts?

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10 Nov 2015 15:15:38
Waro and ed002 summed it up pretty well further down the page.
Maybe some kind of system can be put into place to shuffle season ticket holders around so the can sit next to people they know so they can make a bit of noise.
For example:
john sits on row A. Next to a stranger called Dave.
Johns mate peter sits on row Z. Again next to strangers.
Peter asks dave if he can swap seats permenantly.
Dave says yes.
John and peter are now sat next to each other for games and sing and shout and anfield is a little bit louder.
I can imagine it will be a nightmare to sort out for the club but if they put as much effort into the regular fans as they do the corporate fans then you can have the best of both worlds.

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{Ed002's Note - Maybe the could do it with a loud hailer during half time at the next home game? Get Klipperty out there reorganising the fans.}

10 Nov 2015 15:51:50
Or we can get given little flags to wave like ed2 has.

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10 Nov 2015 16:02:28
Haha it's a good idea ed002 but won't the club just make the fans register the loud hailers like the flags? Lol.

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{Ed002's Note - I am not so sure I have understood any of you posts today Mickey.}

10 Nov 2015 17:22:07
Haha still not as bad as the bridge.

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10 Nov 2015 19:37:43
as the away fans sing, this is a library and wheres your famous atmosphere, our fans sit there laughing but i don't find it funny 1 bit, i often sing these chants with them because its true. i sit in the main stand right by the away fans, our fans and this is no joke sit there talking about the fookin x factor and articles they've read in the guardian, WTF, i think there's about 12 supporters in and around me that actually sing and shout all game. anfield is dead, FACT.

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10 Nov 2015 22:45:07
Fact.

We need the kids back. We're neglecting a generation of supporter all in the sake of the global game.

I don't care what anyone says about my opinion, but our club was built on a passionate working class mentality. Yes, the game is changing and it is becoming more global, but as a consequence, this is killing the game.

There are too many cling-ons with no understanding of the ethos and principles of supporting the club. Many claim to understand, and many claim to grasp and understand what it means to be a supporter.

Really?

Is smiling when losing, taking constant photos, browsing the web and leaving early with a spring still in the step a true reality of a red?

No chance!

Oh, yeah, this half-hearted clap when a player kicks the ball needs to stop too.

If they want to spend their hard earned, then fine, I'm sure we all appreciate it, but you're making our club look like a shower of taburds.

Thank God we have the best away support in the land.

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{Ed007's Note - (clap)

10 Nov 2015 20:19:35
Ed002's you keep referring to klopp as klipperty I think the green eyed monster is poking his head over the parapet!

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{Ed002's Note - It is his preferred nick name. It is what his parents and his sister (that's another story) call him. You want me to call her something else?}

10 Nov 2015 23:20:01
Are fans not aloud to take drums into the stadium?
In rugby league there are guys who go to the game with a bass drum and lead the songs, once he starts going everyone joins in.

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10 Nov 2015 12:51:54
Hi Eds, with Sakho's injury and the volume of games we have coming up, do you know of any of our younger players who could step in and potentially do well. I know we have MS, Lovren and Toure but that will be tough to rely on them playing every game and keeping fit.

Could be a good opportunity for a younger player.

Thanks.

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{Ed001's Note - the best young centre back was Lloyd Jones, but he was sent on loan to Blackpool. To be honest, that is the weakest part of our academy, partially because we do not have as much patience with them as is needed, with defenders being the players that usually take longer to develop. Developing that defensive side of the game is, in large part, down to experience, as a rule. That is why someone like Stones will often have complete stinkers which cost his team, though he clearly has the potential to be a top centre back.}

10 Nov 2015 15:25:07
Thank heavens, Klopp is about to change some of that.

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10 Nov 2015 16:08:44
It's obvious that Rodgers would have played can here of no other options, but say lovren got injured or skrtel, what would be the options? A youth centre back, can, can we recall ilori?

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{Ed002's Note - No.}

10 Nov 2015 16:50:16
Thanks for replying Ed1, interesting read.

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10 Nov 2015 13:35:09
Any anfield regulars no if the soccerbus is hard to get after the game. Normally go with the wife who gets me in a taxi after the game. Heading on my own this time to the Bordeaux game. Thanks for any info.

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10 Nov 2015 18:21:52
Don't no but be quicker walking down town that's what ill be doing after.

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10 Nov 2015 20:20:14
Just walk to sandhills tranie its not that far, all down hill.

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10 Nov 2015 23:23:51
I was at the kazan game a few weeks back, usually I go with the mrs but was on my own this time.
Of you come out kop end onto Walton brek road and turn right (walking towards the Albert pub) just follow the rest of the fans and there's a row of double decker buses waiting.
2 quid and it goes straight to like street station if that helps.

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10 Nov 2015 12:07:18
Why is it that Liverpool have literally no luck in the injury department! i can't remember the last time we had a injury free season ( what i mean by this is no one seriously injured) even our players on loan are coming back or are currently injured!

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10 Nov 2015 12:39:21
This makes it even more important to develop your own players so they are ready for the step up.

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10 Nov 2015 12:47:29
But I would say Arsenal have been really unlucky in the past. This season for us is becoming about one thing: Injuries.

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10 Nov 2015 12:53:26
When was the last time any club had an injury free season?

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10 Nov 2015 13:50:28
I think he meant major injuries to our key players.

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10 Nov 2015 14:22:00
If you read the post properly i said major injury free season!

Piledriver yes arsenal have been unlucky with injuries but i don't support them i support Liverpool lol.

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10 Nov 2015 15:13:16
But all teams have major injuries - Oscar missed half of last season, Shaw missed almost the whole thing, Erikson and Vertoghan missed big stretches last year, Soton were minus a first team keeper for most of the year. every team will generally have at least one long term injury to a key player in the squad most years. We just tend not to care about them I think! (although this year has been particularly bad for us)

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10 Nov 2015 15:18:29
It's unavoidable really.
Players will always get injured.
With squad sizes being so big it's inevitable in the course of a season at least a couple of players are going to get major injurys.

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{Ed002's Note - So by your reckoning, the answer to the injury problem is get a smaller squad.?}

10 Nov 2015 16:03:40
Haha you know what I mean ed.
Although it's true if you had a smaller squad you would actually have fewer injuries.

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10 Nov 2015 16:10:07
Haha so the bigger the squad you the more players you get injured is a fair point, but you'll need to bigger squad to cope.

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10 Nov 2015 11:12:03
While I agree with most fans that the team needs strengthening, I think the injuries to Henderson and Sturridge are the single most important issue at present. A fit Sturridge and we could be turning a lot of recent draws into wins. We just seem to lack the quality in the last third, and to be honest, are buildup play is so slow, you can finish off a bag of popcorn and a beer in one attack. Don't think Henderson could really speed it up, but I think Can has made many errors that Hendo might otherwise not have (and I am not implying that Can shouldn't be playing, but perhaps he isn't a regular starter every game at this point in his development) .

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10 Nov 2015 12:00:30
Dont agree with our build up play is slow at all, we constantly pressing and have dominated the last few games we just lacked concentration on the second palace goal and Can mistake on the first. We are learning a new method in the coach so you have to give it time but match by match we are seeing a new side and we have been so unlucky with injuries this season. Hendo will make a big difference as where Can lacks the final decision sometimes when he bursts forward Henderson dosent lack.

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10 Nov 2015 14:10:38
You must have been watching one of BR`s games on Sun instead of the one actually being played under Klopp, Coop. Our build up play is much quicker now and after I watched the game last night, I thought we started a bit slow BUT played really well the rest of the way. We pinned CP back for log spells and only relied on quick counters. We should have scored at least 2 goals in each half but our lack of composure in fron of goal, poor final ball from the flanks and individual mistakes killed us. CP are a good team with pace and power on the break and that`s about it. we move the ball much quicker and play at a higher tempo now than we ever did in the last 18 months. We just need some luck, composure in front of goal, cut out the individual errors and better final ball (all these can be worked on) and we`ll be fine especially in the second half of the season. Keep the faith, lads!

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10 Nov 2015 12:24:23
Henderson's 35 assists in the last 2 seasons suggest what a key player he is.

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10 Nov 2015 11:04:35
Mike Marsh has been named as Wagners assistant at Huddersfield.
Hope he does well there.

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10 Nov 2015 10:44:00
Pato

There are still reports doing the rounds that Pato will sign for Liverpool with a 4 year contract now being included. I still don't see it myself as surely more reliable sources would of found out something by now.

If Sakho is out for 6-8 weeks then do you think Klopp could recall Llori as he has not even had a look in at Villa.

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{Ed002's Note - Liverpool cannot simply "recall" Ilori.}

10 Nov 2015 10:55:24
Does that mean that a fee would have to be paid to recall him or literally can not recall him end of?

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{Ed002's Note - It is more complicated than that.}

10 Nov 2015 09:19:04
Sakho

Morning Eds has one of you guys had any updates on the extent of the Injury of the big man. I read of Sky Sports that it wasnt an ACL just wondered if you guys heard anymore cheers.

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{Ed002's Note - Wait until the club make a statement on it. It is Tuesday so there is a decent chance it will be mentioned today.}

10 Nov 2015 09:55:57
Cheers Ed.

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10 Nov 2015 10:34:20
I heard 6-8 weeks.

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10 Nov 2015 14:11:23
He is having addidtional tests. Wait and see.

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10 Nov 2015 05:23:12
I will get to Anfield one day (as a tourist fan) and will give it my all.
Does anyone else find it funny that the fans that are leaving early could have made a little of noise, and in turn helped out OUR TEAM. Who knows? Maybe we would have played better and won, and you people wouldn't have had to have left early? Every action has a reaction.

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10 Nov 2015 07:45:28
Its not the "tourist fans" that are leaving early anyway. Its the "locals" who what a nightmare it is to get away from the ground. The tourists will take in every second they can get knowing it might be a while before they come back. In my opinion it is also the locals who are at fault for not creating an atmosphere. What is there, 20 odd thousand season ticket holders, maybe more? So 1 in every other seat is a local, going to the match week in week out. Is that not enough to create an atmosphere? Even if all the "tourists" didn't sing, which i'm sure a good lot would.

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10 Nov 2015 08:19:08
This is nothing new. Early mass exits happened even in Shank's day and the all conquering teams of the 70's and 80's witnessed the same things when performances weren't good enough. I'm against it, particularly when the effort is there from the players, but it happens and like Irish Rover said, it's the locals.
Still, it's not as bad as those that left the Attaturk at half time :)

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10 Nov 2015 09:21:46
Before I reply, I don't like seeing people walk out early never have, but you are all just looking for something or someone to blame for the defeat and you have jumped on what klopp said about the fans leaving! The atmosphere or lack of it is down to lots of factors, the first season ticket I purchased was in the kop and I stood with 12 of my mates every home game and we would all sing laugh banter and just make lots of noise and there were gangs of mates like that and mates with there children all over the kop making noise which would have the kop bouncing which in turn would inspire the other three sides of the ground to make some noise.

Now of the mates I stood with, two are in the kop ones in the main stand ones in the lower centenary and I'm with one of my mates in the upper centenary, the rest gave up there season tickets because they were priced out of the game. You see us " LOCALS ", are not wanted at the ground because we turn up 5 minutes before kick off with a full stomach and having had a few pints not spending our disposable income in the cafes and club shop, they'll never admit it but if they could drive us out they would love it to get as Keane said " the prawn sandwich brigade in " spending there hard earned at the ground.

I've two sons and can't go the game with them because middle Englanders/out of towners are taking seats. So if it's the " LOCALS ", that you think are the problem then maybe you should all think about extenuating circumstances that might be pi##ING the locals off.

So instead of whining about everything just man up and take the loss on the chin because over the next few months there'll be more until the manager moulds the team to what he wants and he brings 1 or 2 body's in.

As a footnote, if you don't like LOCALS going to Liverpool games then why don't you try supporting your LOCAL TEAM and sing yourself horse for them instead of saying what hypothetical you would do if you were at Anfield! IF YOUR GOING TO TALK THE TALK, THEN WALK THE WALK.

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{Ed002's Note - In terms of football as it was Waro you have a very good point. History is that locals would go, and take their children and stand watching the game on Saturday afternoons. Everyone would then head to the pub or club on a Saturday evening and play the game again. And this happened well in to the 1970s I am sure. I understand that now it is much more difficult and the onset of the money coming in, games being televised, internet streams being available, kids wanting to play on their Playstations etc. have had a big impact.

Like it or not, these changes have a tiered impact across the English game. In central London you have far more transient residents than elsewhere, so the demographics of the likes of the prawn sandwich laden Chelsea change regularly – people come and go, but they have the disposable income to go to games. Next year they will be working in Hong Kong and others will be taking their place. Without going too far from central London there is a lesser impact on other London clubs that draw their fans from suburbia and the home counties (Hertfordshire in the case of Arsenal and Spurs for example). The same is true for clubs from areas of London with a more stable population (Millwall and Charlton are good examples). Once you move out to the larger regional cities like Liverpool and Manchester there is, as I am sure you see everyday, new money coming in and that has a knock on effect on the local community, the cost of tickets to games etc.. Liverpool are a very big draw and whilst the club will be doing better during the times of new money it will, as you suggest, be to some extent at the expense of the locals. The draw that they are will always see the likes of Liverpool and Manchester United pull in the visitors, many of which will be ardent fans, and clubs will always put aside a proportion of tickets (or perhaps packages) to sell to those visiting fans.

If you then go out to the regions you will see a much more stable population, no or little new money coming in and clubs who are generally suffering the effects of a flat economy. But if the locals can afford it, they will have no problems getting tickets to the games.

Whilst I have a lot of sympathy for folks like you, your chums and your kids who are caught up in this, I am afraid the situation will not improve. This is the nature of the “business”, and I use that word deliberately instead of “sport”. It would be naïve to think that the increase in capacity at Anfield will see those tickets freed up for locals as season tickets costing, say, £1k per year. Taking account of the additional administration costs, the costs of policing etc., it would be a futile investment for such a small annual return. The solution for the owners is corporate sales and tickets – assign some of the new seats to season tickets, but improve and increase the corporate match day facilities to get more income. They know already that they cannot charge the same corporate prices that the London clubs and Manchester United do, but they will seek to get the best return in their investment that they can – and like it or not, it won’t be to the benefit of the local supporters.

This is something I am very well aware of, probably a lot more than you realise, and you will see a continued change in the paradigm of the game at the highest level. I have a buddy who has rued the passing of the game in his eyes and he has often recounted stories of his grandfather taking him to games as a child in the early 1960s. He has recounted stories of his grandfather’s penchant for violence to the fans of the opposition and how he was living in a segregated society even at that time. Sad, but the way it is.

10 Nov 2015 10:23:51
Thanks for the reply ed002, you've explained it far more eloquently than I could have, just wanted to point out to some of the fans wanting to put the blame on the locals for the atmosphere that there are extenuating circumstances and not everything is black and white. Everything you have pointed out is a sad reality of today's game.

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{Ed002's Note - I think too much has been made of it. Certainly it is not the fault of the locals. Maybe some of the blame can be laid at the door of the clubs that no longer have locals playing in the team - was it noisier when Carragher and Gerrard were both in the side? Maybe noise relates to success? Klopp's tiny dig is based upon his experience - German sides have very vocal fans and some of the stadia are very large (80k at Dortmund) and they do create a noisy atmosphere - which I guess was true in England in years gone by. However, the grounds are typically not intimidating to visit in either England or Germany - compared say to those in Turkey, which can be truly intimidating places to visit. I recall a discussion with an Italian player who went there for a European game back in (I think) 1999 where it was the as advertised "hell" at the start but fell silent as the home team went further behind - the eventual 5-0 winning visitors were clapped of the field at the end.

As for fans leaving early - it happens all over the world, particularly when home sides are losing badly.}

10 Nov 2015 10:32:06
I don't see the point in apportioning blame between the LOCALS and the TOURISTS. I think the club are well aware of the issues leading to the declining atmosphere at Anfield and held some sort of meeting a little while ago I think. I think one of the biggest issues is that people who know each other, and are comfortable with each other, are spread out over the stadium, as Waro highlighted with his buds. Maybe this is where the club can do something, to allocate seats to people who come together in groups etc.

What I don't agree with is this nonsense of supporting your local team if you are NOT from Liverpool. That is a myopic way of looking at things whichever way you look at it, as Liverpool are global brand and will attract supporters from all over the world. Are you saying that these people who will have to wait years before saving up money and have time to visit Anfield for a once in a life time experience should stay away? You also have to look at it from the perspectives of these "tourists" who are in a new country and will no doubt be intimidated sometimes.

I have been in this situation before, and it doesn't help when the "locals" give you dirty looks and mutter in undertones about "tourists" ruining the atmosphere at Anfield. And while that is going on, they sit through the entire game moaning at how Lucas can't pass, and that Sakho looks shaky and don't cheer either. I am not saying everyone is like this, but there are people of this nature, face it.

But if the LOCALS make some noise and get behind the team, that encourages the TOURISTS to get involved, and that too I have experience with.

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10 Nov 2015 11:28:22
The problem AG with allocating seating is that you can renew your seat with a different name and payment detail. you've got fans going that simpl go because their dad and their daddys dad went, and it's a bit of family pride to say your generation have gone rather than going for the football. I've spoken to 2 who renew their fathers kop seats even though their fathers have passed away several years ago. They didn't chant in the game and sat on their mobiles. They need to sort this out drastically for me, and I agree that maybe it should be easier to sit friends together.

If you're going to throw out the support your local team, then that actually also applies to Merseysiders too why don't they go supportsouth liverpool fc, bootle fc, bootle athletic etc etc. You support LFC because you like watching a better game of football rather than 11th tier 442 rubbish.

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10 Nov 2015 11:26:11
The last part of my post was a dig at the op and the first reply AG. I've no problem with out of towners going to Anfield, but when the same people tell you what they'd do if they were there it sticks in the throat a little, I'm sure they would sing if they went once or twice a season, but when you go week in week out and there's no continuity around you then it can be hard to get different people up for singing and getting behind the team when there are different people there everytime you go, they've no experience of this so how can they judge? From Hicks and Gillett to when hodgson then Rodgers were given the job ( picked up a little with KK'S initial appointment) I know for a fact people were down and dissalusioned about those appointments and were questioning were the club were going and I still get the feeling a lot still do, but it is slowly turning with the new manager, people can see a little light at the end of the tunnel, so hopefully you will see an improvement in the next few years.

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10 Nov 2015 12:32:45
I live in the north end Bobatron, so why would I watch south Liverpool, and both bootle teams aren't in Liverpool so why would I support them, can see how your trying to switch what I said but do you see were that falls down? Plus I'm not accusing anyone of anything, I'm merely defending people like myself, local season ticket holders.

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{Ed001's Note - the problem is obviously more than where someone comes from or how much money they have to pay for tickets. There are hundreds of factors that are all adding up to ruin the atmosphere and there is no quick fix.}

10 Nov 2015 12:58:15
Not a problem Waro. I thought I would bring up a "tourist's" perspective to the table.

If we can't allocate seats etc, does it make sense to get the regular fans involved in getting the singing going for example? There will be regulars who attend most games, all over the stadium, and can they be asked by the club to get the atmosphere going to begin with? Once a few people start singing, it becomes easier for others who are not so used to it, to join in.

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{Ed002's Note - Sea shanties and the like. Perhaps a few traditional English folk songs?}

10 Nov 2015 13:00:14
This local vs people who live outside liverpool really winds me up. I'm in bournemouth but I travel to anfield regularly throughout a season and most of the time I have to use hospitality because even if you are a member the chances of actually getting a ticket are minimal. I can see arguments both sides but am sick of being persecuted by 'locals' because I have to pay for hospitality seats. It's a personal choice and I can afford too but it all comes down to wanting to watch your team play. I put money into the machine so to speak and it's not ideal and I'm not fighting either corner but just because u happen to live in Liverpool doesn't give u a divine right to go to the game! The game has changed sadly for the worse but I regard myself as a committed supporter who has no other means to get a ticket. I'm on season ticket waiting list but that will never happen! At the end of the day we all have one love. lfc.

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10 Nov 2015 13:19:26
I just find it embarrassing that fans are being played off against each other.
We're all LFC fans, we all have our individual means of showing our support. What right and what motivation does anyone have to criticise another fan? Surely the point is we are better when everyone is pulling in the same direction.

Other clubs have an easy time mocking us when we behave like squabbling kids.

Klopp is absolutely bang on about this, it's the team that needs to shape up. He says the team needs to make fans believe they can score in the last 12 minutes. Well, in the cold light of day we didn't score. And it is an absolutely tiny minority of people who leave early so I don't know why we are making such a massive deal about it.

Finally, a lot of the 'holier than though' posts about how 'I would sing etc etc etc' are coming from the same people who during the match make comments on here destroying the players.

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10 Nov 2015 13:41:24
the point was I'm sure there's a non league, sunday league, saturday league side closer to you, which there will be, wso why not go support them, if it's about ''local'' support.

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10 Nov 2015 14:11:53
ultimately they have paid their money and can do what the hell they like. Whether you individually like it or not.

At the Bournmouth game a man with his young lad a few seats down left early because they had to travel back over to Grimsby way and he wanted to get a head start on the traffic. In his case are we going to criticise him for leaving early or applaud both of them for making the journey to be there in the first place?

I don't leave early and I never have. Perhaps that's just because I'm tight and I think I've paid enough to be here and I'm staying no matter how bad it is.

Each to their own.

The biggest issue as had already been discussed and that is pricing the core fan base out of the game.

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10 Nov 2015 17:37:11
Waro please explain to me please that how is it acceptable for Liverpool FC to have players and managers from all over the globe, yet it's not acceptable for 'tourist' fans to support LFC and attend Anfield?
I cannot attend games as I live in the North east. My father and family are from Warrington yet having served in the Armed forces I moved around. Just because I live near Middlesbrough should I support them as I have moved every 3 years? On the Times I have attended anfield I have sang, I have cheered I have given support to the team and manager.


Baz.

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10 Nov 2015 20:33:34
I couldn't agree more with those who say that it doesn't matter where you come from. If we pay our money to support the team that's exactly what we should be doing. But to those who are critical in saying 'if or when i'm there then I'd be singing', you clearly haven't been there when you try and either start or continue a song when those around you go quiet! There is simply no point in continuing as it has no impact and you look a twit!

Anfield has with the odd exception become quieter each year since the kop was seated. I agree with the post about the club preferring those who go to the shop, buy food, programmes etc rather than the regulars who don't. As a business, it makes sense. But as a result I think it's these more transient supporter's that have had a bigger impact on the atmosphere rather than whether they are local or not.
JK has certainly generated some discussion, prematurely in my view.

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10 Nov 2015 23:19:39
I don't understand the locals / tourist argument, I live in Blackpool but don't miss a home game and try get to away games, does it make me less of a supporter because I don't live in Liverpool yet probably miss less games per season than locals?

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10 Nov 2015 04:38:29
we are ideally looking to finish top 4 this season. ( and a cup win maybe)
i could argue that 70 points is the minimum we would need to reach top 4 . we currently have 17 of 12 games. which leaves us with 53 to get of 26 which by the sound of it is achievable. meaning we need to win at least 18 games of next 26 to have a chance. ( straight win loss excluding draws and i know that is not how is works) considering we do show up in the second half of season i think we can be very positive to achieve the target. however till Feb we have 11 games out of which i think only man city away is a tough fixture ( though we seem to do well against city) . there are 10 very winnable games coming up in Dec-Jan ( includes home games against arsenal and that van gaal club)
i think December January two months are going to decide if we end up in top 4 or not. if we can get 21-24 points in those 11 games we are set for top 4 finish, considering we have a chance to add in January transfer window.
games coming up in order
1 man city (A)
2 swansea (h)
3 newcastle (a)
4 WBA (h)
5 watford (a)
6 leicester (h)
7 sunderland (a)
8 hammers (a)
9 arsenal (h)
10 united (h)
11 norwich (a)

the argument no game is easy in EPL is valid i guess but i think we have to get 21-24 points in these 11 games. that's gives us a base to launch for top 4. thoughts?

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10 Nov 2015 07:05:31
Goal difference would come into the scene this season.

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10 Nov 2015 07:47:11
When was the last time goal difference separated 4th and 5th spot?

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10 Nov 2015 08:38:24
It varies, but 74 points will usually get 4th place or very close, and that means an average of 2 pts per game.
This might be an unusual season though, with chelsea struggling for form and spurs pushing hard for 4th place.
Personally I think leicester and the other teams will fall away after xmas, leaving spurs and hopefully lfc challenging for 4th.
Spurs are the benchmark this year. I reckon they are on course for 70-75 pts, and with every game that goes by it becomes more urgent to start getting wins.
It is very doable, four points can be overtaken by xmas, but for that to happen we have to start getting wins soon, or spurs lead will become too great to overtake.

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10 Nov 2015 10:41:24
These posts come around every single season and the games never work like that, not once, not never. We could win all of them, we could loose all of them, we could draw all of them! You never know, personally i am not expecting anything this season, not even top 4, this is BR's disjointed squad, not Klopps, Klopp didn't even have a pre season with the squad and will take a few more months at least to get to know his players. We will loose more games that we should have won etc.

it is just football and unexpected losses happen. When klopp have sold some of the players we don't need and replaced them with 4-5 of the players he want, we might then see a klopp team, even though i believe it will take him 2 summer windows. We have so many players that have nothing to do at a club aspiring to finish in the top 4 regularly and fight for trofies.
For one, the GK. You will never win anything with a GK like Mignolet and that's a fact.

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10 Nov 2015 11:58:20
I agree that it will be really difficult for Jk to turn things around fast enough to get a top four finish, and the bookies probably fancy spurs ahead of us- and with some justification based on current match results.
But given that chelsea are having a rare season of such poor results, it has made the fight for top four a bit less difficult than in many previous years, and it would feel like a wasted opportunity if we didn't make it.
But the reality is that spurs are pretty strong, and getting more consistent, and we are still getting used to a new system of play.
No-one will blame jk if we don't pip spurs to 4th spot, but I'll still be gutted because it looks the door to the CL was left half open by chelsea.

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10 Nov 2015 14:53:18
I see the schedule and many of those games should be must-win games and I am happy that Klopp will go out to winn all those games. Another advantage (at least on the face of it) is that we`ve played all the rivals for the top four by next week with fairly decent results so far. Hence, all these clubs must come to Anfield and that is where we must pounce. If you want to finish ahead of teams, your only chance is to play them and beat them. that way, you can affect their results in stead of relying on someone else.

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10 Nov 2015 12:41:13
Mate, Spurs sure, but why wouldn't the likes of Southampton or Leicester finish in the top 4? They have the players and the managers, look this may sound weird but Saints and Leicester, Westham and Crystal Palace have more balanced squads than ours! Its not even a joke, without Henderson, Coutinho, Sakho and Sturridge. we drop from a top 4 team to no more than a midtable squad. N

o quality depth at all. Sakho is injured and now we have only Lovren to come in f. eks and that's after Brendan spent every summer signing CBs. West Ham have W. Reid, Tomkins (Who is massivley underrated btw), Collins and Ogbonna for their CB spots. Only Skrtel and Sakho are as good. Saints can pick from Jay Rodriguez, Saido Mane, Dusan Tadic to play on the wings while we play Coutinho and Lallana out of position. It will take 3-4 windows to get a balanced squad. 4 number 10s, 1 winger, 1 DM, 1 LB, 3 RBs and 2 out on loan, 4 strikers which only 2 are fit atm and only 1 who isn't reguallarly injured but he is nowhere near good enough to lead the line (Origi), 1 good Box to Box midfielder in Hendo and Emre who has no position for me yet, allen who is useless and Milner who is no midfielder.

We need 5 players to make this a balanced competitive squad. GK, LB, RCB, CM, RW Maybe even a striker if the club has had enough of Sturridge and who can blame them? So there is no reason at all to be down or sad if we don't finish in the top 4. Because Spurs have a far more balanced squad than ours in every single department. I am not saying better but more balanced which is vital.

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10 Nov 2015 03:27:47
I don't get why so many people are making a fuss about fan leaving earlier after Klopp said it. It's been on ongoing problem for months or even years. It's already happening for quite some time. Absolutely disgust by such act but there's nothing much we can do about it.

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10 Nov 2015 04:13:24
yes we who sit through the game can ask those who leave what's the hurry? . what can't wait for 5 more minutes. if they can't carry shoulder the team during a defeat they have no right to sing during a win. it deflates the players. By the way klopp said he was disappointed in his players for not making the fans believe in them and that they could pull it off . i think he said he understood fans must have reason to leave and its upto the players to give them belief, a reason to sit through the game. people on their part need to understand a club is nothing without fans and we are the biggest morale boosters there is for the team . shout that GUT OUT when you go down, players need to believe they are playing for the best club in this world and fans have to shout it out for 95 mins for that to happen. sorry so see this happen at a club that pulled off the mother of all comebacks in instabul! how can fans forget that, when we go down just start shouting INSTANBUL all together! those who sit through have to compensate for all those who leave i think.

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10 Nov 2015 06:44:07
Mother of Come backs happened some 11 years ago. You just cannot live in the past. That being said, it's pathetic to leave the stadium midway.
Let's face a simple fact. We have been restricted to small video clips in you tube these days.
Dortumand are on another level to Liverpool. The players had the courage to face the fans after the defeat.
Best fans - Big No
Knowledgable fans - May be.

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10 Nov 2015 07:23:00
Harry, look at ticket prices in Dortmund.

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10 Nov 2015 07:57:13
Ron

Certainly a valid point, Regardless they would make it to the games and Ticket price has nothing to do with the amosphere they create home and away. Dortumand has fantastic support for home and away games.

I do not think there would be any change in the atmosphere if you reduce the ticket price.

We had fantastic support 2 years ago when we finished second, We played some excellent football, Scored goals for pure fun. There was a belief we would turn any defficit.

We lost that belief and that's the reality.

I have been coordinating screenings for Liverpool matches from years at my locality and being honest I have stopped it due very less attendence.

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10 Nov 2015 08:06:43
Ron - surely the fact that tickets are cheaper and more accessible in Dortmund would make it more likely that ticket holders would leave early, not less?

For the OP - there is something you can do - you point out to their face what they are doing and how pathetic it is. It's the duty of every matchgoer to do it.

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10 Nov 2015 10:21:09
We once had the best fans in the world that if they left before the final whistle was to get a lead on the traffic. I am believer that if you can't support Liverpool until the final whistle in defeat then let the ticket go to a proper fan.

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{Ed002's Note - Man that is one embarrassing post.}

10 Nov 2015 02:40:50
Hi eds, seem to me Southampton, leceister, Westham, palace have achieve the FSG's idea of buying potential and turning them into pretty valuable players without articulating that aloud. Is this due to their superior scouting network or something else? can't believe we spend 300 mil and none of the players are Mahrez, Mane, Zahar, Payet types of success.

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{Ed001's Note - did you really include the flop Zaha in that? Do you actually know what FSG's idea is? Because you have it completely wrong there.}

10 Nov 2015 14:58:55
Your post makes no sense. These clubs can afford to do what they are doing with these players and if they do well great. if they don`t, no biggie because the media won`t care because they`re not big clubs. if LFC sign a Mahrez now, the pressure may get to him and he crumbles. The media won`t leave him nor us alone or have you forgotten the whole carrol, Adam, Downing, Markovic issues? Comparing LFC to these clubs in terms of pressure and expectation is just mind-boggling and IMO, just a whined up post to have a dig at our owners who aren`t perfect but are trying to do the right thing. Embarassing post!

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