09 Dec 2018 00:52:02
Thought our midfield looked balanced today. Also liked how Matip looked for forward passes through the lines when he could. Other than Mane for Shaq, are we likely to go with the same team at home vs Napoli?

1.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 01:09:26
I don't think Milner will start RB, probably TAA will be back in the line up.

2.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 06:22:31
Don't be surprised if Klopp goes with his classic Henderson-Milner-Wijnaldum midfield again. And bring on substitutions in the second half. I have a feeling this is what he will do, even though Milner and Wijnaldum played yesterday.

3.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 07:12:02
Thought Fabinho was the pick of the midfield, broke up play numerous times and generally got involved well in the game. Thought Keita was more subdued and seemed to not quite know where to be, was OK though. Personally thought Wijinaldum was dreadful - the amount of times I saw him miscontrol it, take a loose touch, or play a simple pass because he wasn't brave enough to play anything more ambitious, was incredible. Also thought his positioning was odd at times and that he never really did much, in either attack or defence. Early season he was on fire, right now he is very much off color in my view needs dropping, if anything just to give him a kick up the backside.

4.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 09:14:41
I like Wijnaldum but I agree he didn’t have his best game yesterday. Looking at his stats he has started 14 premier league game this season And was a used sub in another 1 of them and has started every CL game. He has been our most used midfielder under Klopp in the last 12 months. So that tells you what Klopp thinks of him. Perhaps he needs a rest.

5.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 09:45:23
Some posters just can’t wait to have a go at Wijnaldum. In my opinion ‘dreadful’ is a ridiculous word to describe his performance. He wasn’t brilliant yesterday but he worked well in tandem with Fabinho and, guess what, we won 4-0!

6.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 09:48:01
Fully agree Seano and JK23, Wijnaldum had his regular "invisible" away games agin. It was so bad that I forgot for a while he was playing cos the ball never got to him. Clearly, he was not hiding, lol. Fab was very solid and Naby I think, played on the left side of a 4-4-2 for the most part so that may have contributed to a subdued yet solid performance (the nutmegs were doing my ribs in, tho) .

7.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 10:04:15
RedWolf, Keita was ‘subdued but solid’ while Wijnaldum was ‘invisible’ and ‘hiding’. Any chance of a little bit of anti-Wijnaldum bias there mate? As JK23 pointed out, Wijnaldum has started 14 out of 16 PL games (only being subbed off twice) and 5 out of 5 CL games. Doesn’t that tell you that he is doing exactly the job that the manager wants from him, with the ball and importantly without the ball. If he really does ‘hide’ (whatever that means) in away games he wouldn’t get near the bench, never mind be an almost certain starter.

8.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 11:09:34
Sorry WW but I disagree. Just because the manager makes a choice doesn't make it necessarily right - Klopp also likes bringing Matip on late in games even though it disrupts the defence and does nothing to help the side, does that make it right just because the manager does it? No. Wijinaldum has been selected a lot, this is true, but constant selection does not mean constant high quality performances.

Wijinaldum started off the season really well, and has gotten consistently worse as the season has progressed. I know we won 4-0 and I'm delighted we did, but we did it in spite of Wijinaldum, not because of him. The main difference between Keita and Wijinaldum in that game was that, whilst both were not as involved as they could have been, Keita was far neater on the ball and with his passing whereas Wijinaldum was sloppy, sluggish and, against a better side, might of had his mistakes punished more severely. I also do not think he 'worked well in tandem' with Fabinho - I think Fabinho just covered a lot of ground and made up for Wijinaldum's lethargy with his own performance. Maybe Wijinaldum is tired, but we've seen these sorts of performances from him countless times. It isn't a one off thing and, against the very best sides, his lack of quality (or lack of effort) will become a more serious issue.

As I said originally he needs dropping - maybe that will give him a chance to recover physically? I'm hoping it gives him a much needed wake-up call - he was rumoured to be available in summer and he seemed much more focused and driven at the start of the season. Game by game that drive and focus has subsided and the mediocrity has returned. Maybe a spell out of the team will help him rediscover such form? Some players need that threat to push themselves, maybe he is one of them? Just because the team is playing well doesn't mean individuals are immune to criticism - Wijinaldum looks the weakest of all our midfielders, not because he lacks ability, but he lacks willpower to produce week in week out.

My question to you though, WW, is why should Wijinaldum start ahead of any of our other midfielders? Keita has been injured but has started to show glimpses of form and has the potential to offer a lot more to this midfield. On the whole Milner has been excellent this season. Fabinho is growing into his role and performing better and better with each passing game. Henderson hasn't quite hit the heights he is capable of but still looks the most natural fit into our current midfield. Shaqiri has looked good when playing in the CAM role. So why should Wijinaldum - the least hardworking midfielder and, at this present time, the player performing at the lowest level - still be selected?

I do not think dreadful is an overstatement - it is actually very strange, when winning 4-0, for any player to stand out as being really poor, but Wijinaldum certainly was. You can only miscontrol, or take a heavy touch, or play a bad pass, or fail to make a tackle so many times before people notice. Honestly I hope he doesn't play against Napoli, we cannot afford any passengers and that is exactly how Wijinaldum is playing right now.

9.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 11:43:02
I think we will see the classics ie hendo milly and gini in the ucl game. Fab is making it hard to leave him out though as is Keita and shaqiri.

10.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 11:43:07
Enough of the Wijnaldum witch hunts- in our most successful winning streaks of this year and last he’s been playing. In fact I reckon I’d someon did that stats we’ve won a damn site more with him that when he hasn’t played. Heard the same about Lucas for years and he has the same stats.

11.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 12:04:32
I’d like to think Klopp is right more than us Seano. I really hope we don’t see the midfield 3 of Milner, Wijnaldum and Hendo on wed night. Wijnaldum gets dealt a bad hand when it comes to fans critiscism where if he does the dirty thankless work he is hiding when Hendo gets praised for it. Wijnaldum didn’t have his best game yesterday and I’m happy to call a spade a spade. I just wish the same standards were given to all players when it comes to criticism and praise.

{Ed001's Note - no mate, you are missing the point. Henderson does not hide behind opposing players when the goalkeeper has the ball at his feet. Henderson shows for it. Wijnaldum hides. That is why he gets criticised for hiding, nothing to do with this conspiracy theory you have concocted out of nowhere but your imagination. Wijnaldum was doing it again at times yesterday, forcing Alisson to go long when all he had to do was step out from behind King and the ball could have been rolled to him. It is something he does. It is nothing to do with doing the dirty work, I have no idea why you are even mentioning that, that is not ever related.}

12.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 12:51:48
Blilliant response, Ed. Cos a player plays all the time does not mean he is not doing things that we think he should be doing. Wijnaldum has good games BUT several times especially away from home, he hides. That is a fact that has been pointed out here by many. Even yesterday, there was a period where I thought he was not even playing cos he never showed for the ball as an option. Ed even recognized that so there is the proof.

Saying Hendo hiding must be a sick joke. The boy is capt. for a reason. He is brave, determined, gives his all for the shirt and even plays injured. He even switched from an 8 to a 6 cos Klopp trusted him there cos he is positionally aware and brilliant at snuffing out danger before it happens. If that is people's idea of being a "hider" then I can't help you there. Wijnaldum has to much talent to be hiding behind the striker or not showing for the ball at times.

13.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 12:56:52
WW "anti-Wijnaldum bias"? You must have had me mixed up with someone else. I am a huge Wiji fan since his U23 days. He is a brilliant footballer with raw talent and ability on the ball. One time, Ed01 said he was rated much higher than Hazard in his youth days at Feyenoord so that's saying a lot, right there. I mean, this guy was already a WC player at 24 for Holland in Brazil and won the league at PSG. I have always rated him as an attacking mid way before he came to us. He got a lot of stick at Newcastle for hiding in games and Rafa benched him for doing that. Is he biased too? I love Wiji which is why I criticize him for fading into the background during games esp. away from home for the most part You may like Wiji which I do too but we're going to have to disagree on this one, buddy.

14.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 13:11:57
Seano, you make your case very well although from a quite biased perspective in my opinion, but I cannot answer your question “Why should Wijnaldum start ahead of any other of our midfielders? ” Klopp has Milner, Henderson, Fabhino and Wijnaldum to choose from for the central/ defensive midfield positions as well as Keita, Lallana and Shaqiri for other wider/ more advanced midfield positions. The fact that he consistently selects Wijnaldum, even when others are available, indicates to me that the manager is very happy with the contribution Wijnaldum makes to the team. To be clear, I don’t think Wijnaldum is our best, or even one of our best, midfield players (and I have said so in previous posts) but I do think that to call his performance ‘dreadful’ and to describe him as a ‘passenger’ is way over the top. I like the comparison with Lucas made by Swishcleaner - Lucas was a whipping boy for some fans until he became a Liverpool legend.

15.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 13:24:18
He plays in the most underrated role. The cm. Not dcm or acm but cm and his game goes unnoticed sometimes.

But look back over his LFC career and the big games we have won against top opposition. He is nearly always there.

16.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 13:27:27
Obviously, JK, Klopp is right more than us, but it doesn't mean every decision he makes is perfect. Henderson tackles more than Wijinaldum, Henderson wants the ball, Henderson can (though he doesn't always do so - which critics are delighted to mention) play good long balls that carve open opposition defences. Wijinaldum doesn't seem to do much of any of that and it is detrimental to our team. Honestly Wijinaldum's biggest strengths are running at players and using his technical ability - we now have Keita who can do that and do it better AND we have Fabinho who will prove to be a better ball winner in our midfield. After that all Wijinaldum has is a good engine - and both Henderson and Milner's work rate are far superior to his. I don't see how or why Wijinaldum gets into our team on current form. If it wasn't for Keita's start being disrupted by injury, and Fabinho taking time to settle, I suspect he (Wijinaldum) would've already been dropped. It is the only way to explain his constant selection despite doing little to earn it.

And I stand by my criticism of him yesterday - it is not a witch hunt, just stating what I observed. Did everyone play perfectly?
No. But on the whole pretty much everyone had a decent game - sure Milner had a dodgy moment, sure Keita was quiet and never really got into the game, sure Robertson was a little loose defensively, but overall they played well, and players like Robertson and Milner do, to an extent, get a little leeway because of their tireless effort for the team. Can you honestly say the same about Wijinaldum?

I think the issue yourself and other posters have with what I said is that it was a criticism after a good performance. Fair enough, if people wish to take umbrage due to that I can understand it. In my opinion, we should never stop looking at where we can improve, even when we win games as comfortably as we did yesterday. The title race this season will be decided by the finest of margins and lacklustre, casual play could cause us, in other games, to drop points. Wijinaldum needs to start producing OR he needs dropping, his current levels are miles away from acceptable.

17.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 13:59:31
Ed001 cheers for replying to my comment mate as I respect your opinion and obviously know you’re a busy man. In my defence mate I wouldn’t go as far as saying I’m concocting a conspiracy theory regarding Wijnaldum and agree he didn’t have his best game yesterday. I’m not saying he should be a starter as I actually don’t believe there’s much difference between him, Milner, Hendo and From what I’ve seen Fab in his short time here. But he seems to get a lot more criticism. He has started 14 of the 16 games and I honestly don’t believe we would have been undefeated in them if he was dreadful or hiding and we were playing with 10 men as some have suggested in the past. If we had everyone available he wouldn’t actually make my starting midfield but I do think he gets a bit of unfair criticism compared to others. Please don’t take as a personal dig at yourself as it’s far from it. Like I said I totally respect your opinion and this is just mine. Brilliant site and love reading it numerous times of day.

{Ed001's Note - I get what you are saying, I just disagree that criticism of him hiding is the same as that of Henderson or Lucas. It is fully justified as he does it a lot in away games. It is not like playing with ten men, as he does not spend 90 minutes hiding. What he does it hide in periods of games. He seems to struggle with confidence issues, because at home, with the crowd behind him, he does not do it. Also I have noticed when he scores he is suddenly everywhere showing for the ball and making driving runs, which he doesn't do much.

I have been watching him since he was a youngster and I know what he is capable of. We have seen less than 65% of his true capability and that is why he gets so much stick. It is not because what he does goes under the radar, it is because he is playing within himself. He has been a devastating attacking force in the past from a midfield position, but for us he just plays safe too often. That was fine when the front 3 were firing on all cylinders, but this season when they started poorly he should have stepped up.}

18.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 14:47:49
With reference to this string about Wijnaldum, Ed01 and posters on both sides of the debate have contributed with rational arguments while respecting alternative opinions and without resorting to personal abuse. That is why this is the only site I have ever contributed to. Respect guys.

{Ed001's Note - it makes a nice change when that happens! And I am glad you feel happy to contribute on here.}

19.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 14:54:48
I’m going to watch Wijnaldum a lot more closely now especially if he scores to see if I notice the change in him as a player.

Redwolf read my post again mate. I never once said Hendo hides I said Wijnaldum gets accused of hiding when he does similar work to Hendo.

Seano I think you might find that Wijnaldum stats outshine Hendos this season with regards to tackling, passing and forward passing but that is no surprise as he has started 95% of games and Hendo has started less than 50%. Perhaps Wijnaldum's biggest strength is the fact he is available week in week out and Hendo sadly isn’t.

20.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 15:16:48
@JK - Stats don't really help judge a player, least for me, but it is true that Henderson has injury issues and Wijinaldum doesn't. I honestly think, once Keita and Fabinho are in full swing, that we will see less of Wijinaldum. Klopp has proven me wrong many times before though so we shall see.

@WW It's funny you use Lucas as a comparison because I loved Lucas and always defended him - mainly because he really did so much, and contributed so much to the team, and was criminally underrated. I do not think comparing him to Wijinaldum makes sense or is a particularly fair comparison as I think Lucas was twice the player Gini is. I do think Wijinaldum has the talent - you can see it when he is really up for it, when he is confident, when he plays well how good he looks, it lifts the midfield massively. The problem will always be that for every good game there are 3 to 4 bad ones. Lucas was, if nothing else, consistent - he almost always performed.

I don't think we'll reach a consensus so maybe let's just leave it here and see A) If he starts vs Napoli and B) if he starts how well he does. And of course C) hope we smash Napoli!

21.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 15:57:41
Wirral I 2nd that mate. Great debate on here and enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions including the guys whos were different to my own. Ynwa.

22.) 09 Dec 2018
09 Dec 2018 16:52:16
I must day Gini is a difficult one hey, I think he started well because he knew his position was under threat and the man was forced to come out of his comfort zone. Now that his established his back to his zone. As eds has mentioned we only seeing less than 65 percent of his ability but and in all honestly it might not have happened often or with every game but a less than 65 percent Gini has helped the team, makes you wonder how great he would be if he actually believed more in himself. Its hard to really drop the guy at times but its frustrating knowing how great he could be.