21 Jan 2018 14:28:28
Net spend became an excuse while Rafa was at the club.

Net spend means bugger all. What you pay for a player, the total amount, including wages and all other agreements in the contract is the be all and end all.

Our wage bill was in a shambles when FSG took over. We were paying massive wages for a team that was going absolutely nowhere.

Wages for players make up majority of a the clubs expenditure each season.

Our squad now is way more balanced wages to achievemnt compered to what Klopp was left to take over.

Rafa, good man but he made way too many bad signings. Quantity over quality.

1.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 14:44:34
Yeah Rapha. You only won one Champions league, got us to another final, bought Alonso, Torres, masch, won the FA cup and 2nd in the league. rubbish manager.

2.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 14:57:25
Do you not really know what happened during Rafa’s time, max LFC? Have you only started supporting Liverpool in the past few years? Have you never heard of Hocks and Gillett? Players Rafa bought who could be described as decent at the very least include Reina, Arbeloa, Alonso, Mascherano and Torres. Rafa had deals lined up for Vidic, Dani Alves, David Silva, David Villa and was checking out a young Aguero. The fact that he wasn’t given the money by H and G meant that he had to go for cheaper and lesser ability options. Maybe they are some of the players you are talking about, but they were definitely not Rafa’s first choices. In about 3 transfer windows we recouped more than we spent.

I think Klopp has generally recruited well but if Hicks and Gillette were still here he probably wouldn’t have got VVD, Mane, Salah or the Ox and would have had to settle for players like Michael Keane, Joselu, Atsu and the like.

I suggest you read the book ‘An Epic Swindle ‘ by Brian Reade before you accuse Rafa of leaving the club in a mess. In fact, we have had Hosgson, Kenny and Rodgers since Rafa and I suggest blame could be more appropriately apportioned there.

3.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 15:03:57
Rafa was as much to blame. Look at how many people got fired when he left the club.
He's not as clean as he makes out to be.

4.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 15:10:25
To be fair i don't think Max is implying that Rafa left the club in a mess. He is saying that the club was in a mess when Klopp took over, which to be fair it was a bit of a shambles. What i will point out is that the wage bill went up 25% in 2016, giving Liverpool the third highest wage bill but on the back of that Liverpool are in the Champions League generating much needed extra revenue, so it has worked i guess.

5.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 15:17:14
Klavy, I have been supporting LFC since 1992. I was introduced to the club by a Scouser. He was married to my sister. I have never looked back since then.

I hate it when people want to defend Rafa when he was part of the problem we found ourselves in with H and G. H and G leveraged the club to the banks in order for Rafa to make the signings he wanted.

If you do not want to believe that then go look at the financial mess LFC was in when the banks wanted to recall the loans.

I respect what Rafa won in his time for LFC but go look at where he is today! It was the right time for Rafa to leave when he did as the club has moved forward since H and G plus Rafa was removed.

6.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 15:37:04
Irish Rover, he said that net spend became an excuse during Rafa’s time and that he made too many bad signings. When your net spend is negative, by nature it means that you are not buying the best players - fact!

It was not an excuse, that was the reality of it. A deal set up for Dani Alves for 12 million and he was given 6 million to buy Pennant.

At first he was given money and brought in the quality players I mentioned in my earlier post. Towards the end Hicks and Gillet were intent on bleeding the club dry and barely released any funds.

Rafa put his job on the line to expose what they were doing. Hence his final season was sketchy to say the least. With funds Rafa has a good eye for a player and that would still be the case were he here today. He might not have bought Salah and Mane, but who knows, and I can guarantee he would have bought better defenders and had a better balance between the two. That is what wins you trophies at the highest level and people seem to forget that and only remember his final season.

Not only that, he gave Liverpool supporters probably the greatest night in their history, with a team that included Djimi Traore and Harry Kewell.

7.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 15:58:39
Rafa never got the signings he wanted, so Howe does your argument work. Hicks and Gillet leveraged club so they could buy it as an asset to themselves, with the club (including supporters), paying the loan and interest.

I would have bought it myself if I’d known I didn’t have to put any of my own money in, but could then sell it for profit.

Rafa’s stance against them was one of the factors in FSG being able to oust them. God forbid that they were still here today or we wouldn’t have had Klopp, VVD, Salah etc.

Say what you like about Rafa but we were always playing in the final stages of Europe’s major competition, winning it, another final, semi and quarter finals. Since Rafa, we have struggled to even qualify for it.

Klopp has done brilliantly, as have FSG, in an era when it is even end more difficult to get top 4, since Chelsea and city got sugar daddies.

8.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 16:00:13
Klavy, let go of the past. Liverpool is in a much better situation now then back then.

And if you want to diagree then that is your prerogative :-)

9.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 16:55:59
It was you who mentioned the past maxlfc in your first post. So we’re in a better state now? Didn’t realise we won the Champions League last season. I must have missed that.

10.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 16:59:03
Rafa is a lovely man and he was a great tactician but how can anyone defend his transfer record? In 6 years he signed (off the top of my head! )

Itandje, Cavalieri, Carson, Johnson, Degen, Josemi, Kromkamp, Kyriakgos, Ayala, Barragan, Skrtel, Paletta, Insua, Dossena, Aurelio, Hobbs, Idriza, Pellegrino, Aquilani, El Zhar, Riera, Pennant, Leto, Zenden, Gonzalez, Babel, Voronin, N'Gog, Keane, Nunez, Morientes, Crouch, Bellamy.

I will hazard a guess that there is loads I'm forgetting about. It was atrocious. That is 33 failed signings in 6 years. None of those players were the quality we needed to push on. That being despite the fact they all got paid first team salaries.

He made a few decent signings. Reina, Arbeloa, Agger, Alonso, Mascherano, Garcia, Kuyt, Torres etc stick out. That is 8 players though in 6 years. The likes of Benayoun, Sissoko and Lucas also did well in spells, although Lucas came good under Dalglish long after Rafa was gone. That still only makes XI at a push though.

Let's not forget that he tried to replace Alonso with Gareth Barry though, and then turned to Aquilani 12 months later! You can't praise him for signing Xabi, and then ignore the fact that Rafa is the reason Xabi left. He never properly replaced Finnan or Riise either and he never managed to sign any decent wingers. Kuyt did a job, but we drew so many games due to a lack of width in the full back and wing areas.

I'm not saying he was all bad by any stretch. He put Liverpool back on the map in Europe and went close in league once. He was certainly the best manager we've had in the last 27 years (bar wasn't exactly set high though), but anybody defending his transfer record is in a dream land. He signed about 10 players a season and usually on 1 or 2 came good.

I get it that he never was allowed to buy his first choice targets but come on lads. Who on earth didn't want David Villa, Dani Alves, David Silva etc. His other first choice targets he didn't get include Stefan Jovetic and Gareth Barry. Aside from that, if you went out to the shop to get your Mrs Milk, and came home with Carling because there was no milk, she'd call you every name under the sun and tell you that you should've just saved the money!

Really don't understand why Max is taking a beating here. Nor do i understand why it matters if he read a particular book or how long he's been a fan. Anybody can spin a story to suit there viewpoint. You only had to use your own eyes to see Rafa and a very poor hit rate in the transfer market.

11.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 17:36:08
MK, just shows how good a manager Rafa was to win a Champions League and get to another final with all those poor players you mention.

A lot of clubs may well have wanted David Silva, David Villa, Dani Alves etc, but Rafa had deals set up for them due to his Spanish connections and just needed backing.

I am not advocating that he should replace Klopp although he would be my choice if JK ever left, but I think the disrespect towards him from some on here is not needed.

12.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 17:49:20
Max, they leveraged the club to the banks to give rafa money for transfers?
There venture capitalists, they borrowed from the banks to buy the club and everything else in between, I'd love to go to town on you about this but it won't be shown, but the general gist would be your talking nonsense.

And your net spend comment, again nonsense, if you sell couthinho and salah for a combined £300 million say, then buy van dijk and keita for a £130 million, the club are £170 million ahead and don't give it to the manager, by your rational the manger signed two players for £130 million and should be judged on it totally ignoring the surplus? Nonsense complete and utter garbage.

13.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 17:41:58
How many Champions league finals have we reached since Rafa left? How many times have we matched his 86 points tally in 2009.

14.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 18:07:08
"Anybody can spin a story to suit there viewpoint"

I would certainly agree with that statement MK, lol.

15.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 18:16:22
He won the CL with somebody else's squad Klavy. Only players who had any impact that he signed were Alonso and Garcia. You are right though. He was an incredible tactician. I think he's one of the best in the world, but in the transfer market he is average at best.

It is too easy to say "he wanted this player and that player, but the money wasn't there". I'm sure Roy Hodgson would've liked Messi and Iniesta, but he ended up signing Cole and Poulsen because we couldn't afford better options. So do we let him off and say "well if the money was there he would've signed better players". You make the best of what you are given and the fact is that Rafa made us progressively worse throughout his tenure because he wasted money and he signed too many average players instead of just signing one good player.

His biggest problem though, is his inability to just focus on his job. He gets too easily distracted arguing with hierarchy and conspiracy theories. He did it here, and now he is doing it at Newcastle. In some ways, I am grateful. Because he alerted the world to the problems behind closed doors. On the other hand though, he clearly let it distract him from his main job.

Rafa deserves utmost respect. He is a legend for Istanbul alone, and the charity work he did locally and still does now only endears him further. He is a red through and through. Max hasn't really disrespected him though, just questioned his transfers and said he was part of the problem in his opinion.

Ultimately, Rafa joined us and won the Champions league. Then the FA cup. Then a final. Then fell short of winning anything. Then fell short of the top 4. That is a very clear, albeit it gradual, downward spiral.

Respect him for sure, but don't paper over the cracks. He spent a fortune and our wage bill was so huge when FSG took over that they had to foot a bill of around £1m a week losses. Yes, H&G failed commercially, but Rafa committed to a huge wage bill that was well beyond the clubs means at a time where he had total control of everything football related. I love him and i was sad to see him go. He perhaps deserved a couple more seasons to turn it around under better ownership. He's also won trophies since he left the club and only took the Newcastle job because he loves the North of England, and not because he had no better options. So i kind of disagree with max's comment "look at where he is now". That was brave of Rafa to go to that shambolic club, if anything.

People do have a glossy memory of Rafa though. I remember drawing a game 1-1 with Birmingham (i think) in the year we were chasing the title, and Rafa subbed off Torres. Even Gerrard and a few other players were looking at the bench in total disarray and Torres's face clearly said he had no idea why he was being subbed. Not to mention his rotation all year round to try and keep his huge squad happy.

Great man. Great tactician. Liverpool Legend. He's a flawed genius though.

16.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 18:52:50
This is my last post on the subject, as I haven’t got the time. We will have to beg to differ. So, Rafa subbed Torres and Gerrard wasn’t happy? Since when was Gerrard the Manager? Klopp subbed Can against Man City and we conceded 2 goals. The average supporter doesn’t know what goes on behind the scenes, and Can was ill.

You’re probably too young to remember it MK, but Rafa subbed Gerrard in a derby game and replaced him with the virtually unknown Lucas, who had a shot handled on the line in the last minute to get the match winning penalty.

I’ll say you were right when Klopp wins the Champions League, which I sincerely hope he does by the way, as I support the team not just the Manager.

17.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 18:56:31
Rafa never got the signings he wanted and was also completely obsessed with signing players in general. That might have something to do with why he wasnt allowed to sign any more. You can find multiple articles on google vaguely outlining the insanity of his transfer policy over 6 years. The amount of players signed is cited from anywhere from 45 up to 100. He signed so many £1 million and free transfer players to fill up the squad for no reason. It was always about quantity over quality and rafa apologists cannot hide that. Hicks and gillette may not have had all the money in the world but they still spunked £20 million on aquilani and the like - they were just the wrong players. I give rafa credit for his champions league results but his league performance and transfer policy, however much money he had to spend, wasnt the best. While he bought alonso, he also wanted to replace him with gareth barry because he could play left back. It is a double edged sword my friend.

18.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 19:18:56
Where have i said Klopp is a better manager than Rafa? You've made that up completely. I literally just said that Rafa is our best manager in the last 27 years. 2 years and 2 months of that, Klopp has been in charge.

I do think Klopp will go on to be more successful than Rafa was (eventually), but he's proven nothing yet and right now my prediction is just that; a prediction. We have improved in league each year under Klopp so far, but we nearly won 2 trophies in his first season and haven't got close since. So Klopp needs to go one step further and win a trophy to prove that he isn't taking us backwards as well.

I wouldn't swap Klopp for Rafa because i think looking to the past to improve your future tends to go wrong in most cases and Rafa proved he wasn't good enough to win the league for us across 5 seasons. Klopp has had 2 so far and if in the next 3 he also hasn't won the league, i guarantee you he will bite the bullet and we'll give someone else the chance to do it.

19.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 19:18:56
Where have i said Klopp is a better manager than Rafa? You've made that up completely. I literally just said that Rafa is our best manager in the last 27 years. 2 years and 2 months of that, Klopp has been in charge.

I do think Klopp will go on to be more successful than Rafa was (eventually), but he's proven nothing yet and right now my prediction is just that; a prediction. We have improved in league each year under Klopp so far, but we nearly won 2 trophies in his first season and haven't got close since. So Klopp needs to go one step further and win a trophy to prove that he isn't taking us backwards as well.

I wouldn't swap Klopp for Rafa because i think looking to the past to improve your future tends to go wrong in most cases and Rafa proved he wasn't good enough to win the league for us across 5 seasons. Klopp has had 2 so far and if in the next 3 he also hasn't won the league, i guarantee you he will bite the bullet and we'll give someone else the chance to do it.

20.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 20:10:18
You seriously think Klopp can win 2 CL's in this or the next 2 seasons? Or 1 CL and a Premier League title in the same time?

21.) 21 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 21:36:48
If we don't believe, who will? And more importantly, what is the point?

22.) 22 Jan 2018
21 Jan 2018 23:49:57
Rafa moved Carra to centre back! Just saying😀.

23.) 22 Jan 2018
22 Jan 2018 02:33:27
MK, Rafa made a few 'decent' signings? some of those are amongst our best players in 30 odd years Agger, Alonso, Masch, Torres, Reina. In amongst the worst signings you suggested there were loads decent - not great but it just didn't work out: Aurelio, Skrtl, riera, zenden. bellamy, babel, crouch they weren't bad players and some did pretty well for us. the rest looking at them we barely paid anything for and this was what Rafa had to resort to when asked to build a squad at a fraction of the cost of our rivals.

He also got us to another CL final 2 years later as well as semi finals. we were ranked Number 1 in Europe for a while as well. Not bad with his awful purchases. imagine what he could have achieved if he was backed with his primary targets.

{Ed0333's Note - Swish I think I’d go as far as calling Aurelio a great player. Certainly when he played I thought he was great. Maybe not a great in the legendary sense but as I say I thought he was a great player.

24.) 22 Jan 2018
22 Jan 2018 09:17:32
I’d agree on that ed, if he could have stayed injury free he would have been a key player for us for years.