14 Dec 2017 10:42:43
Ignoring the rest of the performance, Klopp has an interesting problem now. Karius has been good all season in the Champions league despite rarely having much to do, there wasn't much he could do about most of the goals we conceeded there.

Now he's been given his second PL game with a fair bit to do, and did much better than Mings has been doing on average this season. Klopp said he started because Mings had a niggle, but does he seize the opportunity and let Karius continue or does he revert back to the 'standard' back line?

1.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 10:51:47
There is no interesting problem. He meant what he said! Mignolet will be back once he is fully fit!

2.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 11:17:24
Karius should be the number 1 now, Migs has never and will never be good enough for us, Karius last night showed some signs of utter class, if Migs is put in front of him now then I just don't know anymore. To me the whole GK situation is a shambles, rotating them left right and center it's pure stupid, keep to one goalkeeper, the one who looks the best, Karius! I love Klopp and have little bad to say about him but this is a big problem he needs to fix, why stand by Migs? I just don't get it and it really frustrates me.

I fear if Karius doesn't get the chances he deserves he may get fedup and want out? who knows. I've seen many people saying we need another GK to this I can't disagree more, we have not only Karius but Ward, why do we need another Goalkeeper?

3.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 11:24:40
Karius this season has 5 clean sheets in 8 games, conceding just 6 goals. 5 of which came against Sevilla who are one of the top 4 teams in Spain nowadays.

For me it's a no brainer. He has to start over Mignolet who despite improving, still cost us a victory as recently as 2 weeks ago by misjudging Willian's cross. He also cost us a result against Watford, Burnley and Newcastle just off the top of my head. Those 8 points alone would have us on the edge the title race, rather than the edge of top 4. I'd even argue that he was partially at fault for the first goals against both Spurs and Man City, though it's speculative to suggest we'd have got a result in those games anyway. Plus he nearly cost us another 2 points at Leicester, but Vardy bailed him out with a penalty Benteke would be embarrassed by. In fact the only points dropped where Mignolet is blameless for me are the draws against United, Everton and West Brom. Every other point dropped, he had a part to play in it in my opinion. That's alarming when you factor in that United and Everton put him under absolutely no pressure and he didn't play against the Baggies! He's not always the sole culprit, or even the main culprit, but he is usually involved when things go wrong at the back!

Mignolet is a lovely bloke. I follow him on social media and he really is a genuinely nice guy who noticeably tries harder than any other Liverpool player to engage with the fans, but he is costing us 15-20 points a season. It is genuinely that bad as well, when you realise his mistakes have directly cost us at least 8 points in 17 games so far. At that rate he'll cost us about 18 points this season. All players make mistakes, but we can't carry someone who makes nearly 10 a season which lead to a goal.

I don't even think Mignolet is awful now. He is probably average or slightly above it. It is just his frequent rash decisions or lapses in concentration that make him a liability. Same applies to Lovren. If they have error free games, they're actually all right players. Between them though, they're averaging an error leading to a goal every other game! Over a season you accept that even top keepers and defenders might make 1 or 2 glaring mistakes. But 10? It's got to change. Karius should be first choice for that reason alone; He is less error prone.

4.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 13:18:01
Look forward to your analysis of both how many points he saved as well by his shots saved and also the points lost by other players as a direct result of an error or mistake. I'm sure we would owe the league points if you total them up.

Oh sorry? your comment was a random number based on your perception rather than fact? ah well, .

5.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 14:17:30
Marshy how many saves has Mignolet made that were truly great? I can only think of the Penalty save against Hoffenheim and possibly the save against Brighton 15 seconds before we scored (though in my opinion Murray fluffed his lines and made it easy, ou could argue Mignolet's positioning and reactions had to be spot on) . He makes routine saves, but he doesn't make saves that he has no right to make regularly. Not like Lloris, De Gea, Ederson and Courtois do.

Even if he hadn't made that save against Brighton, we were playing so well we might have won anyway, but I'll play your little game. So say he saved us 2 points by stopping Murray? That reduces his points cost down to 6 in 15 league appearances. Woohoo! Knight him!

All players make small errors. If they didn't, football could be solved by an algorithm. If you hyper analyse every goal, there will always be an error involved. If you hyper analyse every failed attack, there will always be an error!

We are talking about major errors though that directly and undeniably cost us points. Not being weak in a one of one, or from a cross, or being beaten by a decent shot. Those are more of a lack of ability rather than a massive mistake.

Everybody makes mistakes. Maybe it's a misplaced pass, punching the ball when you should catch it, a missed shot, an over hit cross, or even just not communicating with a team mate. Those are all errors which happen all the time, but they aren't critical errors.

Critical errors are missed penalties, being out of position, conceding a needless set piece, flapping the ball to the feet of an opposition player, missing an open goal, passing it straight to the opposition under no pressure etc.

Of course this is all my perception. Football isn't an exact science. There is no algorithm to solve it. It is that subjective debate that makes it so popular. Rather than attacking my opinion purely for being an opinion (yes, you seriously did that), why don't you try and counter my point of view? Find me some examples where Mignolet has done something brilliant. Not a run of the mill save. Might as well start applauding defensive clearances under no pressure, or 5 yard passes from a midfielder, or a striker for getting in the box. Saving shots is the minimum expectation of a goal keeper. It doesn't make Mignolet great if he stops 2 shots a game hit nearly straight at him.

I'm all ears though. Explain to me why Mignolet is good enough for a team with title winning aspirations. I'm really looking forward to it.

6.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 14:32:26
Very well said MK.

7.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 15:51:33
The same De Gea you said wasn't world class MK? Not sure goalkeeping critiques are your strong suit kid.

8.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 16:55:24
You say he is slightly above average but costs us 15-20 points a season. Not sure that makes any sense. He is crap and costs us about 10-12 points more likely.

9.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 16:56:49
Migs costs us 15-20 points a season? It's difficult to take a post seriously with a statement like that.

10.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 17:31:01
Migs isn't the worst, but he's also light years from great. I don't like knee jerk reactions, but he has had 3 full years. Face it, he isn't going to get any better and he simply isn't good enough. You don't have to be a great GK critic to see that.

11.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 17:34:45
If we had swapped keepers with MU at the start of the season I am sure we would have 6/ 9 more points at this time, and while I don't usually watch them apart from against us the whole match against Arsenal and the save from Matip were 6 points MU wouldn't have got had Mings been in goal for them (I'm sure De Gea has contributed some more) .
That's a minimum swing of 12 points, possibly as high as 18/ 20 by swapping world class for average and vice versa.

12.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 18:07:59
Dunno why my post didn't get through, but basically, I've never said De Gea isn't world class. I just think Oblak and Buffon are better. Less than a month ago i voted for De Gea as the player I'd take if we could have one player from any Prem team. Buffon came 4th in the Ballon D'or last year. Anybody who thinks he's past it, hasn't watched Juventus enough. There is more to goal keeping than highlight reel saves. Though i accept some people prefer De Gea. That's fair enough.

Average means you are in the middle of your field/ range. Let's be honest, there are worse keepers than Mignolet. Forster, Foster, Hart, Ryan, Lossl, Fabianski, Darlow etc to name a few. There are also better keeper like De Gea, Lloris, Courtois, Ederson, Cech, Pope etc. Mignolet is an average keeper because I'd say a third of the keepers are better, but a third are worse. That puts Mignolet in the middle 3rd alongside the likes of Pickford, Begovic, Gomes etc. The keepers for bottom dwelling clubs tend to make errors every week so they probably cost more like 30 points a season. At least Mignolet has the occasional week without error. He has improved massively, but it says it all that he's come on so much and is still just a run of the mill keeper. We needs keeper to take us to the next level.

Goalkeeper is the hardest position in football because your mistakes usually cost points. That is the reality of it to be honest. The best keepers just make less mistakes than others.

{Ed025's Note - for me MK de,gea is better than both oblak and buffon, but as you say it all about opinions..

13.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 18:08:08
So if we get 76 points this season, you are saying if we swapped keepers we would get 96 points?

There are too many people on here in total dreamland. You are forgetting that there are many other players in the squad not upto standard.

Hendo 5 points
Lovren 10 points
gk 20 points
mane missed chances 15 points
carra own goals 6 points

in your logic we should get 180 points a season.

14.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 19:20:37
I understand your point Mark, but that is why goal keeper is the most important position on the pitch. Because it is the one position where a good or bad player can literally be the difference between winning the league or finishing 5th. It is an absolutely vital position. Anyone else makes a mistake and you there are 9 other outfield players to potentially bale them out. Goalkeeper is the last line of defence though. You can't afford mistakes there. Being a keeper is all about concentration, organisation, positioning and decision making. If you have to launch into a flying save it might look spectacular but it usually means you were out of position, or the shot was absolutely perfect.

Ferguson knew that a good keeper was worth an extra 15-20 points a season. That's why he was so successful. It was always his priority position.

15.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 18:24:51
Ed025 agree De Gea is best in the world for me. Makes hardly any mistakes and is mentally as strong as steel. He didn't spit his dummy out when he didn't go the Real. He just kept producing great performances even when he knew his team weren't going to win anything. World class.

{Ed025's Note - its hard to argue otherwise mark, i really believe that utd would be mid table without his saves mate..

16.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 20:10:21
I agree with you there Ed025.

De Gea has conceded 11 goals from 76 shots against him.

In contrast, Mignolet has conceded 20 goals in 46 shots.

United concede so many chances. De Gea bails them out so much. He's easily worth 20+ points a season to them.

{Ed025's Note - he is MK and thats the only reason why united are in the top 4, also city,s keeper is making a massive difference as well, a good cat makes all the difference mate and is a massive liverpool downfall..

17.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 20:37:25
Ed025 a top goalie helps us no doubt but we would still be a long long way from winning the league. We have many other players who are not good enough as you well know mate.

The players need to get their act together asap or the OTT posters on here will be saying in a month - oh it's ok we are only 6 points from 4th and 24 points from the top.

{Ed025's Note - some will say that a top keeper instills confidence in his defence mark which would solve a lot of liverpools problems mate..

18.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 20:51:20
It is by far the most important position for me, Ed. Not only can it help everyone to relax defensively, it also takes pressure off the forwards. When you go into games feeling like you need to score 3, it is much harder than knowing if you get 1, you have a keeper and a defence who can hold on to a slender lead.

That stuff can't really be measured, but you can measure that De Gea conceded 1 in 7 shots and Mignolet concedes 1 in 2!

{Ed025's Note - i agree mate..

19.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 21:13:54
MK is spot on. Ed25, I agree that a top GK helps a lot as DDG is like you, the only reason Utd are in the top 4 cos w/ o him, heaven knows where they would be. Just check the B'mouth game last night where B'mouth had so many chances BUT DDG was there to save them until Lukaku scored. Had they had Migs, Utd would have lost.

Having said that, all the top GK's are taken right now so we have to build our own and Karius (who I am a huge fan of) has all the tools to be a top GK in a Klopp system as he was highly rated in Germany before he came to us. All he needs is experience at this level cos the top ones were not born top GK's. They had to learn like everyone else. The question is that do some of our fans have the patience to persevere with him and that is my biggest fear judging by the way they shamelessly turned on him for making a mistake or two.

As for his comparison to Migs, it is very simple. Karius has made ONE mistake that led to a goal this season (at Spartak) . Migs made THREE mistakes in one game at LC. Job done!

20.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 22:03:14
In my house if anything goes wrong. We call it a mignolet moment.

Karious for me all day. however, I really would like us to break the bank for a worldy keeper. ready made quality. the difference it would make. Not just shot stopping, but organisation wise too.

21.) 14 Dec 2017
14 Dec 2017 23:20:39
MK one problem with the goals conceded from shots stat, it shows nothing of value without the context. One keeper could save 90/ 100 but actually every single shot was straight at him. So he conceded 10 he shouldn't have. Another could save 70/ 100 but in fact only 50 were standard saves he is expected to make.

That isn't to say that the context wouldn't prove the point but that it is the context and not the numbers that would prove it. Stats alone never really show an individual player's performance.

22.) 15 Dec 2017
15 Dec 2017 09:03:31
It was a while ago MK but don't you remember a debate you and I had about him, and stated that he was world class and (I'm paraphrasing) you said he was a very good keeper but no way was he world class. Your on here quite a lot MK so probably don't remember it, so I'll let you off 😂😂. I agree by the way that mignolet should be replaced by karius, but long term I don't think he's the answer, hope I'm proved wrong though.

23.) 15 Dec 2017
15 Dec 2017 09:07:52
The only issue i have with MK's argument is it is unfair to blame Migs totally. Where does the 'this error cost us a point' line start? Yes, when Mig's got lobbed recently, he was in the wrong. But how far do you go back? Was there a misplaced pass 5 minutes earlier that turned possession over by someone in midfield? Does that not shift blame to them? I agree MK that Migs is average and does cost us points, but it is impossible to put a number on it and also unfair.

24.) 16 Dec 2017
16 Dec 2017 23:41:50
Stuie that is part of the problem of whether people understand what they're watching. Why so many coaches keep trying to say it isn't just defenders who defend. Mignolet isn't a top 4 keeper but some of our other players don't always perform like top 4 players and when they don't we don't.