18 Sep 2017 12:42:42
Ed025 apologies for snapping at you mate. You're right, it is all opinions.

I was just frustrated at the time because of how fickle the support is. Wanting a new striker, new system, new manager etc after 1 defeat as a result of a red card, and two draws against very stubborn defences.

It just seems like there is a different flavour of every day. One minute everyone wants to hang Klavan, and then it's Henderson, and then it's Firmino.

In my opinion we've had a very unlucky week. Mane was half a yard too slow, then Firmino was 5 inches away from sealing victory in the CL, and then Burnley got away with 2 clear penalty decisions and made about 15 last ditch blocks. On another week, we could've had maybe a draw and a couple of wins but it wasn't to be.

Klopp has baffled everyone with his substitutions and lack of a reaction to the way a game is heading, and our defence is still leaky. Is that anything new? But on the whole we've been very unlucky and still come away with a couple of okay results.

But of course the media have labelled it a crisis, the vultures are circling from other fan bases to wind us up, and the more fickle LFC fans have put their nasty heads on etc.

You nailed it the other day 25. Too many LFC fans think we have a divine right to victory after victory and when it doesn't go their way, they all throw a strop and demand changes.

Never mind! Sorry again mate and here's hoping for the sake of my sanity, we beat Leicester!

{Ed025's Note - no need for apologies mate we all have moments where we go over the top a bit, its called passion and without it we have nothing MK..

1.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 13:10:53
Hi MK nice post. It is fair but i don't think most people are wrong here mate. instead of putting a lot of money on AOC we could have still gone for a striker if not defender ( defender would have made more sense though) .
i agree we have a lot of strikers but they aren't able to force their way in to klopps plans. Studger is not same, solanke is inexperienced and ings is injured. A quality striker would have forced klopps hands at selection and ultimately resulted in a plan B of operations.

Ultimately all of us fans agree not having a Plan B system to play has been our undoing. teams can prepare for us in advance and if they can perform as they prepared we will have problems. So we need a plan B. and right now because of no realistic options available klopp is not interested in Plan B.
i still feel solanke and studger are realistic options for a plan B. but they have to come around 60-65 minute mark to make impact.

heres the thing - in heavy metal too you have a a drop guitar solos and those songs that have that guitar solos are the best. the litlle soft guitar solo when our heavy metal ain't working is what we needed.

2.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 13:25:39
Oh man, the contradiction and double standards on this post.
I like your posts MK I really do, but this is just silly.
I give up on ya today mate.
You're apologising for having a strop and complaining others are having a strop?!
See ya the next day man.

3.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 13:48:20
People aren't having a strop though Kev. They want to bin the system we've spent 2 years signing players and preparing for after 3 games that haven't gone well.

They aren't knee jerk posts either. People are actually putting thought into them and taking time to justify it. These are genuine opinions, not a strop. Which makes it even more unbelievable.

Besides i didn't throw a strop, i just snapped a bit at Ed025. It was one line. Not a dissertation on why we'll never win the league with Firmino up front.

I guess i am just a different kind of supporter to most people. I am willing to accept their will be bad days, weeks and maybe even months. You don't use that as an excuse to throw all your preparations down the drain and try a completely different system. The time for that would've been in pre-season, but nobody cared when our reserves were putting 4 past Bayern Munich did they 🙄

Anyway mate, I'm just going to agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your opinion if i haven't already and you won't talk me into turning on Firmino after a couple of draws. So we're at a bit of a stand off and it is wasting the Eds time.

4.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 14:17:02
Mk's post is correct, IMO. Good response, Akshit as I think the plan B is there so Klopp needs to make his subs earlier even tho, it does not automatically mean that they will work. It just has a better chance of working.

OlIrish, I don't think the post is contradictory neither is MK complaining about others having a strop. I think he is complaining about the level of emotion attached to said strop. It goes from a 2 to a 10 after every bad result and frankly, it is more boring than anything else. MK and I are as frustrated as those raising hell for what is going on. However, the big picture is NEVER considered and neither is any context or perspective offered even in a moment where there is a right to moan. It is always the same ole crap of "Klopp out", "He is a failure", "He messed up", "BR should have been kept" or "Bring Rafa back" blah, blah, blah. Really? After one loss (in 17 PL games) and two draws at home in games where had we taken our chances, we would be on cloud 9 right now? That's all it takes to reach Defcon 5? Now, Klopp has made mistakes and I get all that and I'm not happy about them as well BUT the incessant moaning about the bleeding obvious is just unhelpful.

Spurs can't win a game at home and do you see their fans asking for his head or for 'Arry or AVB to come back? That is the issue for me which is why I ignore posts that just go on and on and moan w/ o offering any tangible things to the debate. The Ed's give us info on what Klopp is trying to do and tho it is frustrating as it seems in the moment that he is not doing things fast enough, the man is trying and agree or not, it's his team, his way and that is how it is. Ed25 was right that LFC fans need to get off their high horses and smell the coffee cos frankly, we have no right to win this or that trophy in England or in Europe cos like it or not, we ain't all that, really. This is what is needed in our debates. Frustration YET more Perspective and humility.

Klopp has lost just 4 measly games in 24 in the PL since we beat City last Dec. You would not know that with all the mayhem you hear or read on fan sites or in the media. The media will bring down who they want and kiss up to who they like. They spent all last season destabilizing him and us with the Karius witch hunt, saying we would never make top 4 and we did. We beat Arsenal 4-0 and what did the media focus on 75% of the time? Arsenal's dire perf. Next to no credit to LFC. See what I mean? Keep the faith lads and don't fall for the "sky is falling" type crap you hear or read about. It is definitely NOT.

5.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 14:34:16
I admit that I was quite shocked by klopps substitutions against Burnley but if solanke had shot two inches lower then the substitutions would have been hailed as football genius!

6.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 14:34:55
First off, the last sentence of you second last paragraph from your OP.
There's no need to bin any system, just tweak it in certain situations like we did too late against Burnley.
Mate, I think everyone accepts bad days but when it's on repeat it gets tedious doesn't it?!
Again, not a different system, a tweak could do it.
Our reserves put 3 past Bayern lol. Grujic had his chalked off remember lol!
I will write this one final time; I never said to drop/ bin/ turn on/ move out/ sack/ sell/ loan out/ get rid of Firmino, he can play as an Attacking Midfielder yes or no?
So when we play the Burnleys of the league, play him in his natural position but add an out and out Striker.

7.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 14:52:38
Liverpool do seem to have a plan b this season. In the first game against hoffenhiem we sat off the Germans and hit em on the break. I remember thinking "have we dropped the quick pressing game of last season? " But in the second game it was back to three red players closing on every hoffenhiem player and the high press. It lulled hoffenhiem into a false sense of security and then they found out what they were up against. You could almost see their collective gulp! We sat off arsenal for large parts of the game too. It was good to see as I was worried teams may have "worked us out" as they did Leicester last season. A clever move by klopp imo.

8.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 14:54:50
No. He can't play as an attacking midfielder in my opinion. He thrives on being able to go wherever he wants and be impossible to mark. He doesn't have the burst of pace required to accelerate away from a marker so being unmarked is his ultimate weapon. He played as a second striker in Germany but Volland quite regularly ran into the channels so Firmino often was essentially leading the line anyway.

However, i do agree that against the likes of Burnley, Leicester, Palace etc who sit deep and try to soak up pressure and then hit you on the break, IF we aren't leading by the hour mark, Solanke should be given at least half an hour to try something different. Klopp is stubborn but i have no problem with him sticking to what we are best at from the start. I even suggested starting Solanke against Leicester in the cup this morning though. I just don't see why we should change our primary system because Klopp left his subs too late and Coutinho couldn't hit a cows backside with a banjo. The solution is finish your chances and make subs earlier. The truly hilarious thing about this debate is we actually drew 1-1 against Burnley in the first game of the season that Firmino DIDN'T play as the striker. We actually had a striker up front all game. So Firmino is getting hammered when it should really be Sturridge.

Firmino is a striker mate. Maybe a false 9, or a multi-10 or a Brazilian 3. Whatever name you want to make up. But he is a striker. Klopp thinks that. Brazil think that. Hoffenheim thought that. Hell, even Firmino thinks that. Maybe he could work with a partner but that means changing the system or at the very least asking Mane and Salah to play as wide midfielders and again, reducing how many they will score. So are we really going to be any better off? It's debateable.

9.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 14:54:59
Sturridge can't do it anymore in my opinion.
So I'm talking about a Hernandez type of Striker.
I posted more to my previous post but for some reason it didn't go through.
Both Coutinho and Firmino could have played from the start on Saturday and we could have played an out and out quality Striker too if we bought one in the summer.
I don't want us relying on a raw Solanke.
We should have got a poacher in the summer and moved Sturridge on.
He's great on his day but I'm afraid that those days might be gone due to injury/ lack of confidence etc.

10.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 13:44:50
ED025 is a legend MK! A proper one! 😎😎😎.

11.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 15:19:29
Ds can't do it any more? Where is the evidence for this? One game? In which he very nearly scored.

12.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 15:27:54
MK and OlIrish, I am all for us going to a plan B with Solanke if what we are doing is not working, MK BUT for us to just ditch a proven system cos we fluffed our lines clinically in two games, is what I cannot stomach as it makes no sense.

As for Studge Olirish, he had his chances vs Burnley BUT was either late to the party on a cross or was too selfish to pass to a team mate or never got hold of any of the 4/ 5 shots he tried. He was not the only one as the forwards all made mistakes so I would not slam him just yet.

13.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 15:46:44
I completely disagree so will leave it at that.
He's not a natural Striker in my opinion but can play there as a secondary or back up option.
Lallana isn't exactly pacey but he's an Attacking Midfielder in a similar way.
They, in my opinion have very similar attributes.
So should Lallana now be played upfront as a False 9?
This has just gotten silly now.
You're talking in absolutes which is just an arrogant take on things.
We have drawn with bloody Burnley.
With Watford too and got a lucky goal near the end against Palace from a ricochet (Solanke was on the pitch by the way) .
They should have equalised via Benteke too.
These results are not unlucky.
They're deserved as there's no real threat upfront in the middle.
Nobody to worry the opposition centre backs.
A deep lying team's midfield can pick up a False 9 so the CBs can sit and stand firm, this leads to long range shots like Saturday.
No space made by an attack minded Striker so midfielders have no space or options to pass to so they either recycle or shoot.
If they recycle, the fans get restless, so they shoot.
A false 9 doesn't work against all teams, if it does why change with 30 minutes to go?
If that system is so good, stick with it for all 90 minutes no?!
Why change it late?
It's ridiculous!
You get desperate.
Why? Because you were stupid enough to try a failed system from the start and now time runs low leading to mental fatigue, mistakes and panic in the stands.
Why not start attacking and when 2 nil up after 70 minutes, then change to a False 9 to see out the match?
Again, not every match, but against the Burnleys.
Surely if the false 9 keeps failing in these games, we need a system tweak.
If not, enjoy a very frustrating season again.
Still, there's always next season eh?!

14.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 16:41:35
How liverpool attacking unit can come into question I don't know. Nobody wins every game. No matter if you have Ronaldo or messi.

15.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 17:12:42
Look at most of the games this season and you'll see why.
We're not supposed to count the City match as we only had 38 minutes with 11 men.
1 - Lucky ricochet goal vs Palace.
2 - A game we couldn't put to bed vs Watford.
3 - See the previous description vs Sevilla.
4 - Then we have Burnley at home.
All winnable games and 3 at home.
I don't blame any individual player. I think the system/ tactic needs tweaking against more defensive teams.
It really is that simple.
Who knows, we might not win still but at least we'll show a more centrally based attacking set up from the start which gives 90 minutes not 20 to score some goals.
At least opposition managers won't see what's coming because we'll have a different option.
Plan B if you like.
Surely if the usual way fails regularly, (3 out of 4 league matches seems regular enough) you could try something different from the outset for once?!

16.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 17:38:21
If changing a system for the odd game means that for that game salah/ mane/ firmino don't scores as many but Liverpool win those games then why not? Nobody is asking for us to throw away our system just tweak Jt against the teams we struggle to break down on the regular. We're not here so mane and slash can score goals. If they didn't score one all season yet we won every game I'd be happy. I think altering our game against those who sit deep and compact is common sense as ehat we're doing now doesn't work well enough that's obvious. Some of you seem to assume the tweaking of a system for certain games means play differently forever which nobody has said.

17.) 18 Sep 2017
18 Sep 2017 18:12:50
Thank God someone else is making sense here.
You actually read the posts fully JBLP.
Thank you!
I'm beginning to wonder if MK is Jurgen lol.