24 Oct 2016 09:27:09
Not specifically LFC related, but I thought it was very interesting. A study by the University of Stirling has shown that heading the ball repeatedly in training or in a game can significantly affect a player's brain function and memory for at least 24 hours. Memory function becomes reduced from 41% to 67% for up to 24 hours, with the effects wearing off after 24 hours. They don't know about long term effects, yet.

What do you think, Eds and fellow Reds? (Ed001 - I've seen you say that footballers are not always the brightest lot several times. Do you think this is related? ) .

I wonder what implications this has for the game in the future. Kids in America are already banned from heading the ball at the younger age levels.

{Ed001's Note - I have always put their lack of intelligence (in the main) down to them never having time to work on their brain because they are constantly involved in sport. Most barely read, when younger, particularly in their spare time, as it is always taken up kicking a ball somewhere.

However, there has to be a correlation between knocks being received and an inability to learn, as memory plays a crucial role. I have known people who have suffered a bang on the head and never been the same again.}

1.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 09:49:45
It is interesting and they have a lot more to go on then I do but I think that's aload of rubbish.

2.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 10:37:30
Thanks Ed001. I guess it's early days to be entirely conclusive about this. But it's very clear that boxers suffer significant brain damage from blows and impacts to the head. How far can footballers be? They're doing absolutely nothing about boxing, so I doubt football is seen as any priority, in this regard. Time will tell.

3.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 11:24:07
Nonsense in my opinion. I did martial arts from 3-11 and then played football from 11-18 usually in higher age groups, breaking my nose 3 times.

So can anyone explain how I walked out of school with 8 A* GCSE's, 4 A's and 2 B's?

Load of overprotective nonsense ;) sorry for the back in my day post! Haha.

{Ed001's Note - you are talking about being educated, not intelligent. There is a huge difference. Plus 'doing martial art' and then playing footie is meaningless. Depending on the martial art, you might have never taken a hard hit to the head, you could easily have very rarely needed to head the ball. It is like your stats posts, there is no context to your talk to make it of any relevance to this discussion.}

4.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 11:55:26
Cant believe Adam is a fightr lol. What all you did not do mate lol.

5.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 12:00:58
Im guessing Alan50 and StandUnited are ex-footballers then? 😉.

6.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 13:40:47
I'm guessing that you didn't take too many beatings between the ages of 3 and 11 MK.

The original post referred to short-term memory issues, that usually resolved itself within 24 hours. So your academic results could only be included in an argument if you had been fighting/ playing football the night before an exam.

While I don't completely believe there's long-term damage caused by heading modern-day footballs (players have headed the ball since football started, and the ball was a LOT heavier back in the day, so you'd assume there would be some evidence of older-era footballers with issues if it was a serious issue), but it should definitely be investigated. If research saves the brain of 1 kid playing football, it's worthwhile.

7.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 13:32:50
You'd be surprised Harry. I did Karate, Boxing and Judo! Stopped them competitively at 11 because I wanted to play football, but I still continued the boxing and judo for fun.

I get what you mean Ed001 (although I wouldn't say I am a frequent stats poster these days! ), but the OP's scientific evidence was all regarding memory, not intelligence. Education is almost completely the ability to memorise and repeat information.

I think it can be a direct result of brain injury. That is clear. I grew up playing football against people from Corby though. I was knocked out at least twice by sly elbows. I was also quite a regular with headers as I played as a lone striker for at least 5 years.

I'm not saying there is no link. But I think it is just over protection. Footballers are just wimps in general! If heading the ball was strongly and directly linked to a lack of intelligence then I think at least half of the men in this country would be brain dead!

Just my subjective views though. I care not for scientific percentages about memory. How is that even measured accurately?

8.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 14:38:49
"I care not for scientific percentages about memory. How is that even measured accurately? " - That is just pure ignorance mate, 'I can't understand how it's done therefore I refuse to even think it might in any way be of value'. There are a lot of different ways scientists/ doctors can measure memory in the form of tasks, memory games, memory tests, etc etc and these are all utilized in identifying memory problems.

Your comment of "footballers are just wimps" is the big problem in many sports - too much machismo and not enough focus on what's actually best for the individuals. There is no hard evidence relating to heading footballs and memory impairment but, as a previous poster said, if research finds a link - and such a link ensures rule changes that help save the memory of a single child - then it will be beneficial. Unlike other area's of meidicine the understanding of the brain is still poor - I would expect studies and research on these things to continue to expand: you may not pay much attention to the science behind it Adam but that is where the answers and the evidence all lie - I find it mad that you think your own subjective opinion is somehow more enlightened than scientific consensus.

9.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 16:48:40
Nonsense. I headed a ball 20 times this morning and the answer to your question is Bulgaria and twice on a Friday.

10.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 17:15:32
Sorry what was the original post again?

11.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 17:34:19
I vaguely remember that there was a study in the 90`s about how heading the ball may cause some form of traumatic issue during the players` latter years after football and it was then proposed that players wear the Petr Cech-type protective headgears to guard against this. Nothing came out of this experiment tho.

12.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 18:30:21
Heading the ball only hurts if you are scared of doing it. Until there is conclusive scientific proof that heading a football indefinitely contributes towards brain injury then it is just a load of nonsense! Sugar free fizzy drinks have chemicals in them strongly linked to cancer. How many of you still drink it or give it too your kids? Unless children are constantly heading the ball as it drops from a 50ft height, it is not going to cause brain injury. There may well be exceptions' to that rule, but kids have been heading the ball for years with no real impact.

First tackling, now heading? Where is football going. Might as well be net ball in 20 years.

Sorry for being a traditionalist old man, but this is just another way in which we are wrapping footballers and children in cotton wool.

{Ed001's Note - you are being an arse, not a traditionalist old man. Perhaps you should take your ignorant arrogance to Jeff Astle's family and tell them this load of ignorant crap? There has been an impact, brain injuries are a major issue amongst all sports, only your ignorance is making you ignore it.}

13.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 18:39:55
MKS - "Education is almost completely the ability to memorise and repeat information". Wow, I mean I'll just say wow again and leave it at that. You mean to say we are all robot like beings regurgitating what has been programmed into our heads in the classroom? No further comment, let's just focus on football. And, you are right that it's not possible to measure the exact size of a memory or total memory storage. But for this test, they asked the subjects a set of questions before, banged their heads with footballs, and then asked the same questions again, after. The difference in answers was due to memory loss, and this they could measure.

14.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 18:52:30
You'd be surprised Harry. I did Karate, Boxing and Judo! Stopped them competitively at 11 because I wanted to play football, but I still continued the boxing and judo for fun. MK Scouser

Where do i start on this. Silly post reminding me why i scroll past your name MK. How many fights and sparring sessions did you have as a boxer before aged 11 and how often did you spar after 11 for fun. I understand you may have kept the fitness side of it, but i'm not having what you have said. You mean you really carried on getting hit for fun? you're either Sugar Ray Leonards long lost son or you have the best defence of any amateur or pro that's been in the game judging on your picture. Stop talking nonsense lad. And i'm not having a pop but if you want to prove me wrong tell me what club you boxed for until 11 and then carried on afterwards for fun. i'm really intrigued as I've boxed and still train/ s[ar but not for fun.

Here is something off the ABA website.

Ask any boxer and he or she will tell you there is nothing as memorable as stepping into the ring for the first time.

Once you have been training at your club for a while you may decide you want to compete. Your coach will help you decide when you are ready for this. You can train up to this point from a young age, but you must be aged 11 or over to spar or compete.

All boxers need to get ‘carded’, which involves a doctor filling in a medical form to say that you are fit to box. Your coach may be able to arrange for a doctor to visit the club, or you can ask your family doctor. Your club will provide you with this form.

15.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 20:12:15
Yep, ed001 is on the money again. Jeff Astle is the obvious example. Why not ask the NFL about repeated head trauma or Rugby Union which is already taking precautions.

Cumulative minor head trauma will have an effect, the extent is difficult to quantify but I can see a day when footballers all wear head protection like Petr Cech.

Sorry MK, it's a shame but you are probably wrong on this one. Time will tell.

16.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 20:46:58
Let's not forget the case of Muhammed Ali (RIP) whose early onset of immobilizing alzheimer's was brought on by a career of boxing.

17.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 21:03:31
Unfortunately the research done in this area in football is poorly designed. The particular study reported today had both flawed statistics and used some rather poor measures, so doesn't really help people have a sensible debate about the issue. More funding needs to be given to research that can assess these things properly, without it we are left with arguing one person's opinion against another without ever really having the evidence to support them.

18.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 21:08:55
PS Muhammed Ali had Parkinson's disease not alzheimers and there is limited evidence of a link to between Parkinson's and brain trauma. Still not to say getting your head smacked in is good for you in any way but it didn't cause his disabling condition. May he rest in peace.

19.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 22:05:28
Im surprised it took all these posts ed for someone to finally point towards Jeff Astle. I mean if you want proof there's your bloody proof.

20.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 22:15:28
Sorry,

What was the question again?

I've forgotten.

A. Header.

21.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 23:08:53
Any blow to the head is going to knock out brain cells. We have enough of them to withstand most of the rigours and accidents in life but repeated heading of the ball over a 30 or 40 year period is only going to increase the chances of brain trauma.

22.) 24 Oct 2016
24 Oct 2016 23:36:16
Leave it out lads mks got a black belt in origami.

23.) 25 Oct 2016
25 Oct 2016 01:05:52
Many people suffer from memory loss that is nothing to do with heading a ball. I'm ignorant about the specifics of Jeff Astle's case, but would observe that one person's tragic circumstances is, in scientific terms, anecdotal and not conclusive evidence. For sure football is likely to be less damaging than boxing, where the route to a quick victory is to concuss your opponent. There are many circumstances in nature where a few high stresses are more damaging than multiple lower level events. It would be interesting to study memory performance of professional players over time. With the likes of opta collecting hard data on games, the frequency of heading for individual players could be well established. Goalkeepers seldom head the ball and should provide a good control group. More serious events like concussion due to clashes of heads would also have to be recorded.

24.) 25 Oct 2016
25 Oct 2016 01:13:18
One more thing. I often agree with MKS, but 'education is mostly about memorising facts' is one of the biggest pieces of nonsense ever. Education should be about learning how to learn for yourself, how to think critically, how to structure an argument and how to discipline yourself to improve your mental, spiritual and physical capacity as a complete person. Remembering facts is training! Unfortunately in this country training masquerades a education because it's easier to measure.

25.) 25 Oct 2016
25 Oct 2016 06:18:23
@ AndyM - if you think it's bad in the UK you should see how they "educate" kids in Asia - almost 100% focus on passing a test and literally nothing on self-development or individuality. And this is the education system the current political incumbents aspire too - in that type of education system you get a lot of students who can pass a test but are absolutely out of their depth in any real world situation, it is not healthy.

p. s. also agree with your assertion that memory over time, heading frequency, etc etc could and should be measured to try and build up a clearer picture of just what, if any, impact it has on the brain. It may turn out to be nothing - but it may also turn out to cause long-term impairment: right now nobody, including the medical professionals, really knows - it needs to be researched further.

26.) 25 Oct 2016
25 Oct 2016 11:14:13
As someone who works in research, in cognitive neuroscience specifically, it is nice to see people promoting scientific research into these things! Unfortunately, funding to do this kind of research is becoming increasingly squeezed. Without more funding we will never have the answers to these kinds of questions.