1.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 09:28:40
So by your definition Creativity = Goals.

Then best leave Miki out of it, or it might be worthwhile to understand Miki's comment.

If you have trained and played under Klopp then your comment might have some weight.

2.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 09:56:00
Hasnt klopp himself said that the press is his playmaker in a way?

In the sense that you don't neccesarily someone playing eye of the needle passes or dribbling through packed defences if you are going to press them into giving the ball away cheaply to you high up the pitch.

So in a sense it does stifle your creative players but it doesn't mean it can't be effective or great to watch when executed well.

3.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 10:04:02
Nick,

Too much hard work for proving a comment from Micky. Good job but I am afraid as Ed02 said it doesn't convey or mean anything.

We all know you like Klopp and you don't have to prove his tactics (gegenpress) with stats.

I am not a fan of his tactics but will support for the overall good of LFC and will get behind the manager.

Cheers.

4.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 10:30:12
gegenpress or not, i want to start enjoying watching football again. Many a times before if not for my passion to see Liverpool win, i could easily have slept off during their matches (sometimes i do sleep off and watch the highlights later) . But since Klop came on board (apart for maybe one or two matches) i have not been unimpressed by the flow of the game.
Once we buy a LB that can hit the ground running, and a DM that has both intelligence and great passing, i am sure we will stop leaking goals, and loosing concentration halfway through the match.

5.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 10:46:36
some players are just not suited for gegenpress, sturridge and allen are the perfect example. If you ask these type of players to gegenpress, i think it does stifle their creativity off the ball, all while they fail to press as well as other players, making them look worse than they are. Last season I got fed up at sturridge pretending to press when he should have either actually pressed when he could and occupied dangerous positions when he could. Instead he just looked like a headless chicken afraid to upset klopp, trying to copy what origi brings to the team. when sturridge is on we should play to his strengths. When origi is on, we know how to play to his strengths. sorry for rambling and going off topic. btw allen was sound last season, he didn't do much wrong when he actually managed to play like.

6.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 11:24:54
Ed002, I'm just curious about how you've reached this conclusion on Klopp. As you've said before you don't really watch football so are you listening to opinions around you or did you catch a few of our games last season?

{Ed002's Note - It is a number of former players who reached that conclusion - not me.}

7.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 11:42:29
Ha, so the opinion of one player is substantive, yet statistics that convey lots of goals, and hence creativity - courtesy of gegenpress - ultimately convey nothing? What a load of nonsense. You don't score 80+ goals per season and win leagues without a good amount of creativity. Simply relying on winning the ball high up the pitch for a simple pass to your striker through on goal, will only get you so far.

Last season, Liverpool *created*, on average, 12.95 chances per game. Dortmund created 12 chances per game on average. Barcelona created 11.45. But keep on telling me how I'm clutching at straws! The whole notion is a myth. If you go on youtube, you will find plenty of highlights of Klopp's BvB showcasing good dribbling, needlework passing, and just all-round great goals from teamwork. Players such as Reus and Goetze didn't develop reputations as great creative players because Klopp prevented creativity.

Mkhitaryan is simply just a relatively lazy player that prefers a more elegant and relaxed approach to the game so he can hog all of the playmaking. That's it. Apparently Tuchel 'changed his life' because he was allowed to be more creative. Despite being given more creative license, they still scored only 82 goals - I say 'only' because it's essentially no better than what Klopp achieved at Dortmund. Forget individual stats, team end product is what matters most.

{Ed002's Note - You don't understand Nick - for some reason you are trying to draw an analogy between creativity, a number of players who don't like Klopp's methods, Klopp's inability to changeand goals. It makes zero sense.

And if it is "end product", then Klopp's failure to win anything for a number of years should perhaps be considered?}

8.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 12:04:44
- No ed, you're just not bothering to connect the dots. The players don't like Klopp's methods because it 'stifles' creativity. The amount of goals that Dortmund scored under Klopp makes a mockery of their complaints, because you can't score 80 goals when the team's creativity is stifled. It doesn't work like that.

- Of course it's considered. But since Klopp last won a trophy, he's still played in a number of finals, including the champions league final. so at least he's kept himself relevant. I doubt that he reached those finals because his methods don't work. Also consider how hard it would be to win the Bundesliga when your closest rivals assemble arguably the best team in the world, partly by pinching your own best players.

- I don't understand this notion that Klopp has failed to change for the worse. As ed001 has pointed out, Klopp has been changing. Are you telling me that the methods at Liverpool last season were exactly like the methods at Dortmund?

{Ed002's Note - I understand the situation perfectly Nick. You cannot see past statistics which are meaningless.
- I agree, Liverpool fans (for reasons that are beyond me) see failure as success.
- I have never said anything about "exactly like" anything. I think the plain Englsi is a bit of a struggle for you.}

9.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 12:11:15
My question was more regarding your point about his inability to change, that would imply that he's shown that to you at Liverpool. I'm not trying to play the eds off one another here but I am curious as Ed001 has said he has adapted this season and he watches most of our games, spurs aside.

{Ed002's Note - His system was found out, he has won nothing for years.}

10.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 12:13:15
I really feel for you Ed02, at this rate, it might be more productive growing tomatoes on a bed of rocks.

11.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 13:52:18
Show me a system that hasn't been "found out"

12.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 14:14:13
Exactly.

13.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 14:40:11
Rhino, I'm baffled by what your problem is, it's not like I'm abusing ed002. You're being a sycophant.

14.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 13:14:18
It's interesting that you persist with that argument, as someone who watches the Bundesliga when we know that Bayern hold all the cards. Amongst your list of failed seasons 12/ 13 season where they managed to reach the CL final - despite being a relatively unknown quantity outside of Germany - and maintain their position in the Bundesliga. 13/ 14 they won nothing of course but sustained success is not always easy to bring around in a league so heavily in the favour of one team and with a relatively young squad, they still played very good football and imo were very unlucky not to pick up the DFB Pokal. The 14/ 15 was a season marred with injuries for them, at least in the beginning, which played a significant role in their form, with an eventual recovery to make the EL.

As for last season, I wasnt expecting anything. As you pointed out the timing of his arrival was far from ideal and I agree, you could say that he didn't manage to win either finals we reached last year, but the progress is plain for all to see in terms of our style of football. The fact that he managed to turn the teams mentality around, coupled with the development of some of the players within our squad (a lot of which were injured at some point and none that he had a hand in bringing to Liverpool) I think its far too early to label him as anything.

I suppose my point is that there are many factors in football which directly influence the end result - It's extremely reductive to blame his tactics/ training as being the sole reason for the failure of his last season in charge, as much as it is to claim injuries were. Furthermore success is a subjective term, if you'd have asked Dortmund fans whether or not 2 Bundesliga trophies, a DFB Pokal and Champions League final was success or failure when he took over your answer would have been unanimous.

{Ed002's Note - I just don't get it - you might think that Dortmund won nothing before Klopp and weren't known outside of Germany until four or five years ago but that is I am afraid nonsense. They won the Bundesliga several times in the nineties and naughties; they won the UEFA cup back in the nineties and naughties and they won the Champions League back in the day. Not suprisingly, they were very well known outside of Germany. I can only put this down to your lack of knowledge of European football - as everyone has been well aware of Dortmund as a good international side for the past 25 years.

And could you point out where I blamed his tactics as the "sole reason" for failure in his last season at Dortmund.

You are not grasping the concept of not winning anything being failure rather than success. And the Dortmund fans crave the success they had before rather than celebrate failure with the Liverpool fans. Hopeless.}

15.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 15:28:03
I wish he cn get rid of zonal defending from corners and free kicks.

16.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 15:40:19
Hey Nick,

When he was available why no top team tried to sign him up?

We are even unable to attract top talent though we can't attribute this to Klopp alone as it has to do with our position.


As we all know Ed01 and Ed02 have a differing point of view on Klopp and they have own rationale.

Lets wait for a season or two to see how this one goes.

Cheers.

17.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 16:03:19
Most 'top teams' had a manager at the time. I think we were lucky.

18.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 16:22:38
Ed, Dortmund fans would beg to disagree. They will look back on Klopp's time there as a resounding success. Regardless of their good history, what were they at the time Klopp rocked up? A struggling club languishing in the bottom half of the Bundesliga table. Their history meant nothing. I think it takes a great manager to lift a team from bottom-table obscurity to successive league title success all within the space of a few years.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that Liverpool fans celebrate failure. Perhaps you're misinterpreting a recognition of progress as a 'celebration of failure'. Did you see Liverpool fans running around back-slapping eachother after Sevilla beat us? No, we absolutely crucified the team for their performance. I think everyone is bummed that we didn't make the champions league and finished eighth. But at the end of the day, we still see a lot of hope going forward. If that's called 'celebrating failure', then whatever man.

Samikewell, top teams did try to sign Klopp. Bayern tried to sign Klopp but they were handcuffed by Guardiola's meandering over his future. Which other 'top team' could have signed him? Chelsea were settled on Mourinho, United were settled on Van Gaal, Arsenal were settled on Wenger, City were chasing Guardiola, Barcelona were settled on Enrique, Madrid only just appointed Benitez, Juventus were settled on Allegri.

{Ed002's Note - I know a lot of Dortmund fans and a number of ex players who would disagree with you about them not caring about their recent history.

Your second paragraph is pap - go back and read the nonsense of those who see last season's failures as a success.}

19.) 12 Jul 2016
12 Jul 2016 16:55:01
You keep on misinterpreting me. I'm not foolish enough to deny that BvB fans don't care about their recent history dating back to the nineties. My point was that despite their recent history, that were hopelessly struggling when Klopp arrived, and did not resemble a team that challenges for trophies. I don't understand what your point is. Dortmund fans would have been underwhelmed if they were foretold that Klopp would win them 2 leagues and a domestic cup? After the numerous years of hopeless mediocrity that eroded the club's status?

As for the said comments by Liverpool fans, I'm sure there were a couple of idiots that said finishing eighth with no UCL is a success. But most fans I have seen simply acknowledge that despite the underwhelming finish, progress was made. The team is gaining an identity, have more spirit, and they can only get better. Things were only stagnating or getting worse with Rodgers.

{Ed002's Note - I think you perhaps need to drop this matter Nick. It is clear that you worship Klopp and think everyone else does - regardless of his year on year failures.}